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Mastery Points are a scourge in GW2


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I'm going to do the thing that I never do which is chime in without having read the thread bc I have to admit I kind of agree with op. I'm not going to say it's wrong, but we've made so many concessions towards making the game so much easier to engage with for new players that the mastery system does seem like an outlier at this point. Whether that's the hill we'd like to die on or just another obstacle to fall I have no opinion, but I do think it's the next thing . . .

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5 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Of course it doesnt sound right, because thats not what he said. 

It is and I don't need to retype every part of what he said -or so I thought- for you to understand that it directly responds to exactly what he typed and is quoted directly above my comment. What he wrote is false.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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4 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Rift mastery? Farm rifts to farm rifts more efficient.

Convergence mastery? Farm convergences to farm convergences more efficiently.

Neither you need to do rifts to level your rift mastery nor do you need to do convergences to level your convergence mastery.
You can gain exp and mastery points from everywhere in the expansion.

It's not "farm rifts/convergences to farm rifts/convergences more efficiently".

It's "gain experience from wherever you like in the expansion to unlock better rewards from rifts/convergences".
Huge difference.

 

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

We can't pretend in good conscience that the bulk of existing Masteries isn't overwhelming for new players. This is a serious issue, I am sure, and we shouldn't be downplaying it or calling those new players "lazy".

I mean, it's not like a new player hits level 80 and get overwhelmed with all masteries. Nope.

You hit level 80 and get access to the core tyria masteries.

First HoT masteries aren't unlocked until you start the HoT story. Other mastery lines additionally require entering certain maps to be unlocked.

Each PoF mastery unlocks one by one whenever you gain the respective mount.

IBS masteries unlock with the IBS story (or by gaining the first IBS mastery point).

EoD masteries are unlockes step by step when playing the story.

Same for Soto.

So yeah, new players won't get overwhelmed at all. They get a new mastery line introduces one by one while they progress in the game.

 

Maybe you "knowing the game inside out" is the problem at this observation.

With that knowledge, you will choose the most efficient way to unlock the most beneficial masteries. Starting the HoT story to unlock gliding, starting the PoF story to access the desert and buy mounts, rushing through EoD story til skiff and jade bot is unlock or alike.

This way ofcourse you will unlock a ton of masteries and you have to level them at the same time.

But that's not what new players do at all.

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Thats the only kind of somewhat "semi vertical progression" we have once we hit 80 , the ascended stuff is really quickly acquired and the elite spec goes alone on with progression and map exploration , the only thing we have to look into to improve our exploration , loot stuff auto , etc , are masteries and next the way the leg relic is gonna work .

I don't know what op wants , all the stuff unlocked from the start , having mounts and everything ? it sucks your friends cannot play with you without the mastery needed , but c'mon thats stuff is easily achievable , you got way more mastery points than it is needed in the game.

It is an mmo and i think especially at path of fire who has kinda  metroidvania feeling with area only accessible after you got jackal going trough sand portal , skimmer higher updraft, if you remove that you'll remove a big part of the game , as you have maybe seen , a lot of ppl like the mastery system how it is . Just imagine metroid starting immediately with 2x jump , all doors open and your cannon fully upgraded ... 

Edited by zeyeti.8347
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1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

I mean, it's not like a new player hits level 80 and get overwhelmed with all masteries. Nope.

That was not my point. My point was that new players may have difficulty to decide which Masteries are useful to them, since there are many useless ones.

Edited by Ashantara.8731
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I like that masteries are meaningful rewards, and that getting the required mastery points forces you to engage with the game. You need to explore the map to find insights. You need to play the story missions. You need to complete some achievements that usually get you playing the actual content from that expansion / LWS. You also need to play the associated expansion / LWS maps to earn exp to finish the mastery. So I want the masteries to be good enough to funnel people into actually earning the masteries, without making the masteries a new thing that gatekeepers will use to prevent newer players from being able to join a group for certain content.

don't love that many of the masteries are junk to pad out the mastery system, but I'll take the junk ones so long as they keep making actual good impactful ones as well. You usually don't need to buy too many of the junk ones in order to get to the good ones.

I think it's true that an established player will forget that a newer player doesn't have all the masteries already, and that they can't do everything right away. It's too bad that this creates a bit of a gulf between veteran and new players. It's most noticeable with (but not limited to) flying mounts. It might be a nice idea for Anet to provide a catch-up mechanic to help new players achieve masteries from older content more quickly?

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I'll cut my personal feelings off for this explanation right here. Thank you to everyone that understood that the mastery system could have been different (agree with me or no). Below are listings of Masteries that alter the gameplay in a positive way.

---Central Tyria: Pact Commander (Pact Mentor, Noblesse Oblige, Advanced Logistics), Legendary Crafting (), Fractal Attunement (). 3 out of 13. The journey of crafting a Legendary is already long enough without needing to grind for the ability buy from/to talk to an NPC. Fractal Attunement masteries are grind now to grind better masteries which feel like they could have been better. Special abilities you only get to use in Fractals or something.

---HoT: Gliding (Glider Basics, Lean Techniques, Stealth, Advanced, Ley Line Gliding), Itzel Lore (), Exalted Lore (), Nuhoch Lore (Nuhoch Stealth Detection), Rifts (), Ancient Magics (Counter Magic, Spectral Aid, Siren of Orr). 9 out of 33 masteries aren't pressing F to collect, interact, talk to NPCs or having the privilege of looting x item. Those 9 are fine to grind for because they add something to the gameplay. Mastery locking bouncing mushrooms, updraft gliding or any other map traversal techniques are only in place to time gate you from map completing that area. The other 24 masteries could have been more interesting or rewarding, but they aren't because who wants to grind to talk to 5 NPCs on a map?

---PoF: All mount 4&5th slot masteries (5), Crystal Champion (all 5). 10 out of 30 are good design. The first three of all mount Masteries should have been baseline. It's beyond disappointing to unlock your raptor for its jump to be short, Springers jump to be limp, Skimmer to not hover an extra 4ft and to see all the Jackel portals everywhere for you to not be able to use them. The share mount skills masteries that take the 4th & 5th mastery slots are what all the mount masteries should be. All of Crystal Champion are what the whole Mastery system should do. All the 1-3 mount mastery slots are only there to time gate players from map completing & blitzing the story. Why is there no "Crystal Champion" to use all the glider abilities you get in LWS 3 everywhere else in game?

---IBS: Raven Attunement (Raven Bright), Resistance/Valor/Vigilance Essence Manipulation (the beam attack additions are fine except needing them to open chests), United Legions Waystation Synchronization (EMP, Remote Charge, Iron Legion Medizooka, Ash Legion Mount Stealth, United Legions Waystation Mastery) Dragon Slayer (Dragon's Boon). 21ish out of 29. I say "21ish" because the Essence Manipulation beams attacks are fine, but why are opening chests tied to these beams at all? Unlocking bigger beams is exciting. Happening across a huge chest after a boss or in IBS and not being able to open it is not exciting. If I exclude the Essence Manipulation only because of "press F to interact" the total is 9 out of 29.

---EoD: Fishing (Angler Sense), Skiff Piloting (Depth Charges, Speed Boost), Jade Bots (Gliding Booster, Jade Tech Waypoint, Rescue Protocol), Arborstone Revitalization (all 5 for reasons I'll explain below), Turtle Mount (Sharing is Caring). 12 out of 24. Arborstone Revitalization is fine with me even though it's a lot of masteries to talk to NPCs because it's an alternative route to Eye of the North and gem store 2 week/perma Pavilion passes. EotN you pay gold to get crafting stations, trading post access, major cities portal access, etc. Gem Store you just buy with converted gold-gems or pay with money. If you don't want to spend gold to kit out EotN, or convert to get a Pavilion pass, you can get the same thing with Arborstone Rev. with some grinding. Same "should have been baseline" reason applies for EoD masteries. It's disappointing to get your fishing pole to realize you only cast 5ft away, and your skiff only goes the knot limit of a No Wake Zone.

---SotO: Heart of the Obscure Research (), Flight Training (Combat Launch), Astral Ward (), Inner Nayos (). 1 out of 21. SotO is loaded with masteries that should be baseline. It feels like all the content was made first then retroactively made worse for the sake of having mastery progression. All of Heart of the Obscure Research is forcing you to regrind HoT Gliding masteries. When flying mounts released everyone I came into contact with was puzzled that they didn't benefit from updrafts & Ley Lines off the jump. I really wish some of the other 20 masteries gave you LWS 3 gliding abilities in OW. During convergences you can blast enemies with Skyscale to then dismount midair and dart up, forward or attack using glider skills and then remount. The aerial combat is a lot of fun! Too bad 0 of the masteries let you do it anywhere else that isn't a LWS 3 map or convergence event. Skyscale fireball attack is amazing as well. It should have been a "Heads up Skyscale enjoyers you can shoot fire now with SotO release!". Even the other mounts could benefit from a non-dismounting engage skill. 

 

I understand the Mastery system having reached the highest current level of 530. I'm saying the Mastery system is a missed opportunity majority of the time. 56 out of 150 Masteries aren't: pressing F to interact with thing x, loot boxes or play a minigame to loot boxes, talk to NPCs, buy things from NPCs, etc. That's adding the Essence Manipulation from IBS too. 43 out of 150 if you take out those. Barely over 1/3 of all masteries add to the gameplay loop. This isn't an attack on anyone. It's feedback on how a current system is received by myself and players I've engaged with.

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23 minutes ago, Doam.8305 said:

It's the forum and it happens to be an extremely toxic place as people go on and on about gw2 being the nicest game ever. However this isn't true at all any critique ever so minor regarding this game is met with the toxic backlash of white knights who won't take the time to understand just just attack. They exist in raids, wvw, pvp, forums, and so many game modes with a false smile so don't take it personally that so many people are attacking you and painting you as a needy and horrible person as they do it to everyone who doesn't see everything as absolutely perfect.

That's kind of you to assure :j Thanks for taking time out of your day to type that. This lesson is drilled into me now and forever. I've seen other people treated like criminals here for incorrect opinions. Didn't think giving feedback about a time gating feature would be such a heinous act seeing as no one liked that Skyscale was so heavily time gated on release.

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52 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

That was not my point.

Ehm.... yes it was? That's exactly what you said:

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

We can't pretend in good conscience that the bulk of existing Masteries isn't overwhelming for new players.

I used your words. Your point.

 

53 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

My point was that new players may have difficulty to decide which Masteries are useful to them, since there are many useless ones.

That's your point now. You didn't write anything like that in the comment I quoted. lol

As for your new point:
Why should new players have to decide in the first place? Did you have to decide? Did anyone ever have to decide?

Each mastery is useful at least for a certain part of the game (a certain map for example). New players will go through all of these parts, so all masteries they unlock will be useful at some point.

There simply is no have to pick only the most useful masteries. They don't have to decide. You can get all of them without problems.
And if anyone wants do decide to not train a certain a certain mastery line, they will be able to read what these masteries do.
Master effects are not described overly complicated after all.

 

50 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

Fractal Attunement masteries are grind now to grind better masteries which feel like they could have been better. Special abilities you only get to use in Fractals or something.

You mean like the ability to improve your equipment even more, gain greater effects from fractal potions or interacting with Mistlock Singularity, which resets all your cooldowns, gives you additional AR and prevents your next downstate?

 

55 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

All mount 4&5th slot masteries (5), Crystal Champion (all 5). 10 out of 30 are good design. The first three of all mount Masteries should have been baseline. It's beyond disappointing to unlock your raptor for its jump to be short, Springers jump to be limp, Skimmer to not hover an extra 4ft and to see all the Jackel portals everywhere for you to not be able to use them.

Isn't that your original statement? -> You want stuff for free, without any effort.

Again, that's not how games work. 🙂

 

58 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

I understand the Mastery system having reached the highest current level of 530. I'm saying the Mastery system is a missed opportunity majority of the time. 56 out of 150 Masteries aren't: pressing F to interact with thing x, loot boxes or play a minigame to loot boxes, talk to NPCs, buy things from NPCs, etc. That's adding the Essence Manipulation from IBS too. 43 out of 150 if you take out those. Barely over 1/3 of all masteries add to the gameplay loop. This isn't an attack on anyone. It's feedback on how a current system is received by myself and players I've engaged with.

 

I think you need to understand that not all masteries exist to reinvent the wheel.
Some are stronger, some are less strong. Some are bound to certain maps/content, some are useful everywhere.
Some masteries give you new abilities, some improve your existing ones.

You are specially upset about masteries that unlock stuff and improve existing abilities.
I think you should understand that masteries in the end are a replacement for the level treadmill.
Instead of leveling to get better stats with each expansion, you level to get other things, like better abilities on your mount, access to certain vendors or access to more rewards.

Nobody claims that all masteries are perfect or necessary, but at least in my opinion all of them are better than adding a new level cap and getting nothing from leveling other than a few bonus stats (and more power creep in the end).

 

 

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1 hour ago, kiroho.4738 said:

That's your point now.

No, that was my point all along, hence my example of my alt account (how I knew how to pick the important Masteries etc).

It is not up to you to tell me what my point was, because I should know better, no?🤦‍♀️ You just misunderstood my message.

Edited by Ashantara.8731
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6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

We can't pretend in good conscience that the bulk of existing Masteries isn't overwhelming for new players. This is a serious issue, I am sure, and we shouldn't be downplaying it or calling those new players "lazy".

I don't think so. Masteries are "that mmo taste of level cap increase/progressing through expansion" without actual level cap increase. The main difference between those "expansion specific masteries" (some other people mentioned here, probably not you) and "regular level cap increase" is that when you skip all past expansions, you don't exactly need to catch up on -lets say- 50 levels, but instead focus on the fresh expansion masteries. Other mount abilities, sure, worth getting, but not necessary. Gliding? It's basically dead. Why? Because with "closing dragon saga" and giving out easy skyscale access in soto, the players might not "min-max" their movement with other mounts, but they'll have the flexibility of skyscale for whatever they need -and with soto masteries which enables leylines/updrafts on skyscale, gliding is basically an overwritten mechanic.

So how do new people catch up? Probably like anet wanted them to: buy soto. If they want to follow the full story and experience each expansion, there's nothing to be confused about, they just follow the journal or -which amounts to the same thing- the dates of expansion/LW releases. That doesn't sound too complicated.

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The Lyhr one and that Livia one where you're on the platforms are awful.

Please give the points on those ones easier - and I say this as someone who has maxed out SOTO mastery points. I have 9 available right now for the update.

The achievement system is how you should allow players to show off. The skin system is how you should allow players to show off.

Telling a new player to grind 530 points and tens if not hundreds of million worth of exp is a silly gate-keep and anyone here supporting it is basically using the logic of "well I grinded it so they should too". The game shouldn't be a grind to access mechanics. It should be fun. Grinds should be reserved for titles and skins.

 

Edited by Leger.3724
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The flawed mastery system has me playing their pve maps to unlock everything and on 4 accounts. And I'm a WvW player, but I still want things like the Griffon now that 250 gold (which the Griffon actually costs) isn't much anymore thanks to AA rewards. The collections actually annoyed me more than the gold or exp collecting for the masteries. You can also buy boosters for AA. But of course it also sucked to get through everything just to still not have a full mount.

That still has to be worth something, even if only for maps that aren't completely abandoned. Because you have to play them.

So, watch out what you whine about. Next, the maps you play with your bro are empty, but at least you get everything unlocked first try xD

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11 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

No, that was my point all along, hence my example of my alt account (how I knew how to pick the important Masteries etc).

It is not up to you to tell me what my point was, because I should know better, no?🤦‍♀️ You just misunderstood my message.

I answered to what you wrote. If your "point" is different to what you wrote, you should improve your writing skills. 🤦‍♀️
Apparently I'm not the only one who "just misunderstood your message".

Nice distraction from the actual point btw. 😉

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The game needs some kind of progression after you reach the cap. It replaces the usual vertical gear and lvl progression. But maybe the system is becoming just too big at this point. Because in vertical progression games you usually only need to progress through the latest expansion as usually the starter gear is basically free and replaces everything before that and lvling is often made easier or squished (which is basically the same) for the past levels. So it could look like this horizontal progression game has more semi-vertical progression than true vertical progression games for someone just starting.

Maybe a mastery squish is in order at some point. There are many filler useless masteries that could just become baseline. Or maybe more mastery points could become available through very natural sources like story, map completion or even added to some of the achievs. One thing that was always very boring to me is getting the mastery xp, I would first squish that part. While getting points is at least somewhat interesting because its just a specific task you do once and there's usually plenty (depends a bit on the expansion/LS). But getting mastery xp is just boring grind. If I would have to guess it's more grindy to get all the mastery xp in one expansion in this game than lvling up through whole expansion in an average vertical game.

edit: On top of that. In most vertical progression games it doesn't matter how you get xp. You can quest, you can do dungeons, you can play pvp... But here you're locked to specific expansion's activities for specific masteries. And if you don't like that content. Well there is no alternative. Maybe they could at least expand that you can get universal mastery xp in fractals, wvw and pvp. Might not help many players but at least some that enjoy different modes and are more likely to dislike pve grinds.

Edited by Cuks.8241
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3 hours ago, someguy.4107 said:

---Central Tyria - The journey of crafting a Legendary is already long enough without needing to grind for the ability buy from/to talk to an NPC. 

Just a heads up on this part: the legendary line in Core isn't required for all legendaries. Gen1 (the OG legendaries) do not require it. It's only required for Gen2 (the ones introduced after the mastery system was added to the game, that are untradable). Most new players are probably not going to be gunning straight for Gen2s, especially since Gen2s require expansion specific masteries to craft. Gen2s are a "prestige" item that you work on after you do everything else.

GW2 is scarcely the only game to lock things like this (NPC shops for shiny items or even "nonsensical and limited" abilities) behind "masteries"/quests/levels/collections/etc.

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1 hour ago, Lucy.3728 said:

That still has to be worth something, even if only for maps that aren't completely abandoned. Because you have to play them.

So, watch out what you whine about. Next, the maps you play with your bro are empty, but at least you get everything unlocked first try xD

I prefer that the maps are full because they are fun to play instead of a necessity to grind mastery xp. Gw2 with Anet did that very well in the past and hopefully they manage to do it also in the future.

Because if that becomes the main mechanic to fill up open world this game kinda loses it's advantage over vertical games. Fun OW is gw2's thing. Because it for sure can't compete in other pve end game modes with other games that focus more on that and it basically abandoned the competitive side which is slowly but surely dwindling. 

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On 2/21/2024 at 11:47 PM, someguy.4107 said:

   Never gave Masteries much thought until seeing "Astral Ward Mastery Extended" on the last patch preview. Reflecting on my experiences from the first mastery to the last (currently 530) revealed how absolutely awful the Mastery system is. Recently, my brother got his Griffon mount. After congratulating him I tell him how to fly, build speed, etc. He replies that he can't. There was no Swoop or disengage skill while airborne... He spent 100g for a more efficient glider because he didn't have the Griffon masteries done. I take him to some IBS strikes for easy ascended gear. We kill the boss then are presented with three large, shiny chests... That he can't open. Killed the boss. No masteries so no loot. 

   A large portion of Mastery Points are the ability to press "F" on things. Mount masteries are even worse for locking baseline features behind another time gate. Even the masteries that make sense, like "Crystal Champion" that give additional abilities to mounts, could have been fun quests to unlock the new skills. Instead, it's more time gated Mastery Point shenanigans that kills player expectations. I couldn't count the times I wanted to bring a friend along to a new area only to remember that they either: can't exist in the area, can't interact with anything/anyone or sometimes can't even loot open world containers. 

   I think Masteries were introduced in HoT to prevent players from blazing through the expansion. I'm probably wrong but who really knows? In the modern GW2 Mastery Points make it impossible to bring new players anywhere outside of the core game. Even when players achieve big milestones, like getting their griffon/ or x, they can't relish in the accomplishment due to having to continue to grind for the masteries tied to said achievement. It's akin to crossing the finish line only to have to run another lap. Yeah you did it, but the stands are empty and the lights are off now. Yeah you got your fishing pole, but you need to grind for 20-30 hours so you can cast farther than 5ft.

   I think it's too late to remove the Mastery system. It's tangled in so many things. Wanted to at least get some feedback on how this system negatively affects players experience, inclusion and expectations. Does anyone else have these problems, or am I alone here?

Why u did not told him to get SOTO and the skyskale for less than 20g. I was in this situation and I got the skyskale with soto fast now everything else so easy, and is more easy to get ascended gear by crafting. 200-300g and he is good to go to max crafting and get all ascended he wants. I started SOTO with 180g after I finish it fully I have like 500g and I did not even notice it. Do soto and all its stuff ive done it whidout any mount.

Edited by AIex.4105
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Masteries are fine as long as they continue to have meaning. We have some masteries that didn't need to exist in the game for how pointless they are; and have little use outside of the content they were designed for.

Accessibility is a non-issue. The issue is we're getting to a point its starting to feel bloated.

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On 2/21/2024 at 2:47 PM, someguy.4107 said:

   Never gave Masteries much thought until seeing "Astral Ward Mastery Extended" on the last patch preview. Reflecting on my experiences from the first mastery to the last (currently 530) revealed how absolutely awful the Mastery system is. Recently, my brother got his Griffon mount. After congratulating him I tell him how to fly, build speed, etc. He replies that he can't. There was no Swoop or disengage skill while airborne... He spent 100g for a more efficient glider because he didn't have the Griffon masteries done. I take him to some IBS strikes for easy ascended gear. We kill the boss then are presented with three large, shiny chests... That he can't open. Killed the boss. No masteries so no loot. 

   A large portion of Mastery Points are the ability to press "F" on things. Mount masteries are even worse for locking baseline features behind another time gate. Even the masteries that make sense, like "Crystal Champion" that give additional abilities to mounts, could have been fun quests to unlock the new skills. Instead, it's more time gated Mastery Point shenanigans that kills player expectations. I couldn't count the times I wanted to bring a friend along to a new area only to remember that they either: can't exist in the area, can't interact with anything/anyone or sometimes can't even loot open world containers. 

   I think Masteries were introduced in HoT to prevent players from blazing through the expansion. I'm probably wrong but who really knows? In the modern GW2 Mastery Points make it impossible to bring new players anywhere outside of the core game. Even when players achieve big milestones, like getting their griffon/ or x, they can't relish in the accomplishment due to having to continue to grind for the masteries tied to said achievement. It's akin to crossing the finish line only to have to run another lap. Yeah you did it, but the stands are empty and the lights are off now. Yeah you got your fishing pole, but you need to grind for 20-30 hours so you can cast farther than 5ft.

   I think it's too late to remove the Mastery system. It's tangled in so many things. Wanted to at least get some feedback on how this system negatively affects players experience, inclusion and expectations. Does anyone else have these problems, or am I alone here?

I do agree that masteries are at odds with GW2's current "pick-up-and-play" design philosophy.

However, that philosophy is trash and players who don't have patience to achieve anything are ruining this game.

They should have kept GW2's horizontal progression as it was before releasing trash EoD espec balances and SotO masteries. Let GW2 be preserved as the great slow progression system it was and start GW3 fresh with a more modern immediate gratification design. Trying to reconcile both attitudes in a ten year old game is pleasing neither side of the divide AND eroding the only good, monetizable thing in ANet's arsenal.

Edited by Batalix.2873
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On 2/22/2024 at 1:20 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

That was not my point. My point was that new players may have difficulty to decide which Masteries are useful to them, since there are many useless ones.

Yeah they can turn into a noob trap, locking a  new player into a grind because he picked up first non essential things.

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When I was brand new the people helping me made it clear I don't need ascended gear unless I wanted to do t4 fractals. I did wvw in full exotic for ages same for raids. I'm not sure why you're in a rush to get him ascended gear. 

I wasn't in any particular rush for masteries either. I went through the story and progressed each area more slowly and got masteries without thinking much about them besides veterans giving me tips on where to put early ones. 

I think the issue comes if you're trying to rush into certain content. I loved my birb when I first got it and getting it's masteries didn't take long, I even got the exp doing the races each day. Going through pof story alone gets you the mount progression pretty smoothly. He probably wouldn't be nearly so frustrated if he wasn't constantly comparing himself to you. 

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