Maybe Peitha is the really evil one *SPOILERS*

[Infinity.2876]

In general, throughout the story I take the stance of Galrath the undying. He says something like: "Peitha may be good or bad we don't know but I hope you can convince her to help us out."

I don't understand why the commander is naturally inclined to aid a powerful (at least enough to beat his brother) demon, when in lws2 we spend several chapters distrusting caithe when she literally stole an egg to protect it (which we wanted to do anyway). At the end of the day demons are demons and we get the impression that the human race has been being possessed by them for quite a long time. Why do we suddenly and whole heartedly agree to aid a kriptis in becoming queen. I would think we would be like: "Well I guess I'll join cause maybe when she's queen she'll help us out." and have like a suspicion that she would possibly be worse of a ruler than aparch. This would be disproven as we go through the story because she is trying to help them out. But then again, we haven't actually seen aparch consume any demons besides the one who did it willingly. 

That's why I am leaning on the side of Galrath. At the end of the day, they're still demons, and they still need emotions to consume and people to possess.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:42 AM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

In furtherance of her own goals, yes.

But this is still in effect:

Her own goal includes her continued rule and survival of the kryptis.

Antagonizing the Commander and the Astral Ward runs in complete counter to those goals.

Even if Peitha isn't good aligned, even if she's evil aligned, she isn't stupid aligned.

TBH, I would prefer Peitha to be evil, but smart enough to know not to make enemies out of individuals like the Commander.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Even if Peitha isn't good aligned, even if she's evil aligned, she isn't stupid aligned.

No she isn't, that would be us, for buying into any of this. 😆

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

No she isn't, that would be us, for buying into any of this. 😆

The Commander has eaten paint and toxic bacon just to "become stronger". Not only that, but they antagonize someone who they know is only pretending to be a war criminal in order to exploit the real criminal's resources, right after doing the same thing, causing mass murder in another nation.

Of course the Commander is chaotic stupid.

But it's not like Peitha lied to the Commander - she's openly stated that she has feasted on and killed people before like most kryptis. She's just openly presented herself as the lesser of two evils and one who cares about her own people and is willing to make a deal with Tyrians to her and their benefit.

Basically the same position Joko was in during Nightfall - evil, but better for the Sunspears to have him than Abaddon at the time.

[mandala.8507]

9 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I don't understand why the commander is naturally inclined to aid a powerful (at least enough to beat his brother) demon, when in lws2 we spend several chapters distrusting caithe when she literally stole an egg to protect it (which we wanted to do anyway). At the end of the day demons are demons and we get the impression that the human race has been being possessed by them for quite a long time.

For the same reason that the human Commander is willing the trust Charr characters: we know that race isn't everything and that Peitha has done nothing but help us this whole expansion. Never once has she done something to harm us, we were just scared of her at first because she was in our head and we didn't know why.

It's why we were able to ally with the Sylvari in HoT, the Awakened in PoF, the Corsairs in LWS4, the Flame Legion in the Icebrood Saga, the Echovald gangs in EoD, and Mabon in the first half of SotO. We aren't afraid of the labels attached to people. We're the parent of an elder dragon! Us, the famed dragon slaying Pact Commander. Remember the last time we just started smiting things because we presumed them all to be evil with the original elder dragons? How'd that go for us? Not well.

We were already suspicious of Peitha for the first 10 chapters of this expansion. It would be beyond overkill for the Commander to still be playing the silly "How do I know I can trust you?" game. Not unless the Commander is supposed to be the worst judge of character in the known universe.

The perspective that "at the end of the day, demons are demons" is literally the entire ideology being pushed back against right now in the story. If that's still the position you're operating from, you are simply refusing to engage with the parameters of the narrative being told.

[firedragon.8953]

Well Eparch is a bit of a Mister E.
Or was it that E is Garren? Can't recall?

But, considering how most GW2 narratives go, the start is strong, then have a bit of a cliff hanger (end of SotO patch 1), but the fingers loosen and *splat* everything is now flat.

So my guess, we gather all our friends and press F to liberate the Kryptis, ringing in a golden age of Nayos. 

I encourage you all to think the same as this. It may seem pretty dim, but curbing the expectations makes the narrative a bit more fun, or well, less disappointing. Prove me wrong devs and narrative team!

Oh, and before I forget, praise Joko! The true hero of Tyria and beyond!

Edited March 11 by firedragon.8953

[Kalavier.1097]

12 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I don't understand why the commander is naturally inclined to aid a powerful (at least enough to beat his brother) demon, when in lws2 we spend several chapters distrusting caithe when she literally stole an egg to protect it (which we wanted to do anyway). At the end of the day demons are demons and we get the impression that the human race has been being possessed by them for quite a long time. Why do we suddenly and whole heartedly agree to aid a kriptis in becoming queen.

Well, for starters. Peitha has, directly or indirectly been helpful. Unless something changes in this new chapter I haven't played it's not presented as "The commander is completely inclined to trust Peitha entirely and is whole heartedly supporting her ascension to queen" but as a "She has had plenty of times to possess or kill me, has never used a single one, and has been helpful. For now, she's not an enemy."

We never wanted to steal the Egg in LWS2, we were trying to find the Master of Peace to safeguard his life from the Sylvari trying to kill him. When we finally caught up, he entrusted the egg to the commander specifically, and then Caithe stole it. We then try to investigate how to follow Caithe, come across the fact Sylvari are Mordrem, and then have to wonder if Caithe is fully a servant of Mordremoth or what's going on. HoT does flip-flop very heavily on this detail (when we leave the golden city, it's treated as a "She'll show up, it's not a worry" but then when she appears they threaten to kill her.)

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not only that, but they antagonize someone who they know is only pretending to be a war criminal in order to exploit the real criminal's resources, right after doing the same thing, causing mass murder in another nation.

Backwards there though. They antagonize Balthazar because they know he's a fake and there is zero indication exactly if there is some goals that aren't "Helping us". Plus Lazarus wasn't the most trustworthy form to take in general. AFTER that they then pretend to be Mordent Crescent in order to rally the Awakened army to fight Balthazar's army and create an opening. 

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But it's not like Peitha lied to the Commander - she's openly stated that she has feasted on and killed people before like most kryptis. She's just openly presented herself as the lesser of two evils and one who cares about her own people and is willing to make a deal with Tyrians to her and their benefit.

Being fair, her comment is IIRC that she's never been one for feasting on the flesh, preferring only the emotions/dreams until Cerus who rips and tears.

[EdwinLi.1284]

22 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

Being fair, her comment is IIRC that she's never been one for feasting on the flesh, preferring only the emotions/dreams until Cerus who rips and tears.

I think people forget this part too easily about Kryptis culture. Originally before Eparch took over, the Kryptis was a race of demons that feasted only on emotions and dreams so there was no need for them to directly interact with people of Tyria. Just making mental contact and experiencing a mental link through the mist was enough to provide them their "food" being emotions and dreams. 

They are still demons by their species but a different variant that had little to no needs to cause direct harm to humans compared to the ones we meet in the past that feasted on human souls and/or flesh of the living since those are a variant of demons that have the need for eating souls and living flesh as food.

Eparch changed that to what it is now where Kryptis started eating each other and living beings from beyond the Mist. Peitha's goal is to get the Kryptis back on their original nature as Demons being the type of Demons that only needed to feast on emotions and dreams while also still being a demon by nature since she is also doing this for personal gain while manipulating the situation so people cannot back down from her deal.  

 

Edited March 12 by EdwinLi.1284

[Kalavier.1097]

9 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I think people forget this part too easily about Kryptis culture. Originally before Eparch took over, the Kryptis was a race of demons that feasted only on emotions and dreams so there was no need for them to directly interact with people of Tyria. Just making mental contact and experiencing a mental link through the mist was enough to provide them their "food" being emotions and dreams. 

They are still demons by their species but a different variant that had little to no needs to cause direct harm to humans compared to the ones we meet in the past that feasted on human souls and/or flesh of the living since those are a variant of demons that have the need for eating souls and living flesh as food.

Eparch changed that to what it is now where Kryptis started eating each other and living beings from beyond the Mist. Peitha's goal is to get the Kryptis back on their original nature as Demons being the type of Demons that only needed to feast on emotions and dreams while also still being a demon by nature since she is also doing this for personal gain while manipulating the situation so people cannot back down from her deal.  

 

Ramses mentions something along these lines as well. About how Tyrian dreams were amazing IIRC, when they came through the mists. but Eparch cut off that access.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/11/2024 at 3:24 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Backwards there though. They antagonize Balthazar because they know he's a fake and there is zero indication exactly if there is some goals that aren't "Helping us". Plus Lazarus wasn't the most trustworthy form to take in general. AFTER that they then pretend to be Mordent Crescent in order to rally the Awakened army to fight Balthazar's army and create an opening.

Balthazar had actually given indication to be helping us against the dragons and even showed good will by assisting with Aurene - it just wasn't clear why beyond fake reasons, and even requited to Marjory tailing him as a show of good faith. It still would have behooved the Commander to point out that the disguise was a fake before forcibly, and painfully, removing it from him and breaking a divine artifact.

Also, before that, the Commander pretended to be a Son of Svanir to loot their resources and was offended when people called them out on doing that and the issues it caused. I wasn't referring to the Mordrent Crescent incident which is also still another case of the Commander doing stuff they antagonize others for doing, just another piece of hypocrisy we see continue into IBS and EoD.

The Commander definitely doesn't have any moral high ground, and that's before going into map completion stuff of committing genocide, animal cruelty, grave robbing, poisoning civilians, and making said civilians homeless among other things.

On 3/11/2024 at 3:24 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Being fair, her comment is IIRC that she's never been one for feasting on the flesh, preferring only the emotions/dreams until Cerus who rips and tears.

She does say that too, in her "fine wine" comment, but she also has stated in SotO that she's killed mortals for food before. Both statements can be true - no need for physically eating flesh to have killed for food.

Edited March 12 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Senti.2890]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Commander definitely doesn't have any moral high ground, and that's before going into map completion stuff of committing genocide, animal cruelty, grave robbing, poisoning civilians, and making said civilians homeless among other things.

tbh does anyone in gw2 have moral high ground?

[Zok.4956]

On 3/11/2024 at 4:39 AM, mandala.8507 said:

Never once has she done something to harm us, we were just scared of her at first because she was in our head and we didn't know why.

Invading another person's body (or mind) without consent is already a form of serious violence.

[Teknomancer.4895]

15 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

poisoning civilians, and making said civilians homeless

Wait, I don't remember that bit. What part of which map did I miss?

[Zok.4956]

On 3/12/2024 at 6:42 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I think people forget this part too easily about Kryptis culture. Originally before Eparch took over, the Kryptis was a race of demons that feasted only on emotions and dreams so there was no need for them to directly interact with people of Tyria. Just making mental contact and experiencing a mental link through the mist was enough to provide them their "food" being emotions and dreams. 
They are still demons by their species but a different variant that had little to no needs to cause direct harm to humans compared to the ones we meet in the past that feasted on human souls and/or flesh of the living since those are a variant of demons that have the need for eating souls and living flesh as food.

When I was little, my parents raised a pig. It had a name and was sometimes even petted. It was fed only good things. But at some point it was butchered and eaten (it tasted good). That's why my parents kept it in the first place.

When one species sees another as food, there is usually no real friendship between the two.

The fact that there can be exceptions to this rule between individuals and how this develops in a understandable way would be a great story. Unfortunately, that is not the story of SotO. Because then the Wizards Tower, Astral Guard, Isgarren, Eparch etc. wouldn't have as much story time as they already had up to now.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 4:39 AM, mandala.8507 said:

The perspective that "at the end of the day, demons are demons" is literally the entire ideology being pushed back against right now in the story. If that's still the position you're operating from, you are simply refusing to engage with the parameters of the narrative being told.

Well, at the end of the day, demons are demons and most demons do demon things true to their demon nature. 

And what “demon nature” really means is only mentioned in passing. Demons are portrayed as being fairly humanized in their behavior and are directly divided into good and evil. There are "good" demons who feed on human emotional emissions (just like dust mites feed on skin flakes) and there are "bad" demons who feed directly on people.

Wouldn't there have been a better and more complex story if the Demons behaved in a completely normal and acceptable way (from the perspective of their way of life and culture) and only from the perspective of the humans/Tyrians would this be seen as bad and destructive behavior? And the story would be about this conflict and its resolution?

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

On 3/10/2024 at 9:09 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Commander has eaten paint and toxic bacon just to "become stronger".

The bacon was pretty good. Acquired taste. The paint could have been better.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 3/13/2024 at 5:03 AM, Zok.4956 said:

When I was little, my parents raised a pig. It had a name and was sometimes even petted. It was fed only good things. But at some point it was butchered and eaten (it tasted good). That's why my parents kept it in the first place.

When one species sees another as food, there is usually no real friendship between the two.

The fact that there can be exceptions to this rule between individuals and how this develops in a understandable way would be a great story. Unfortunately, that is not the story of SotO. Because then the Wizards Tower, Astral Guard, Isgarren, Eparch etc. wouldn't have as much story time as they already had up to now.

 

 

 

You're using the Demons that feed on Human souls and flesh example with the Pig rather than what I mentioned about how they use to not need to kill humans to gain their food since they only needed to feed on their dreams and emotions which required them to be alive and did not need them to make any direct contact with the humans. As I said they are still demons by nature but a varient that once never needed to harm their food source nor interact with it since they can harvest and feast on their food being Dreams and Emotions by staying in their area of the mist until Eparch arrived and forcefully changed their nature to a direction where they have to directly harm their food source now. 

Also, the feeling I get with Peitha and the commander feels more like a person who finds a animal cute rather than a friend. She has not really given me a feeling she wants to be friends, only see the help as something useful in the long run of her own goals since she has use for this little animal. 

Edited March 23 by EdwinLi.1284

[Zok.4956]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:01 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

As I said they are still demons by nature but a varient that once never needed to harm their food source nor interact with it since they can harvest and feast on their food being Dreams and Emotions by staying in their area of the mist until Eparch arrived and forcefully changed their nature to a direction where they have to directly harm their food source now. 

If they can do both, then both is in their nature.  In reality, there are many examples where people say "I was forced to do this" as an excuse (to themselves and others) to justify their actions. But there is always a choice.  And maybe some demons choosed (long ago) to stop harm their food as they evolved and became more civilized. Because as a species (civilization, society) evolves over time, it usually goes from "barbaric" to "civilized", although the barbaric beneath the civilized layer can sometimes be brought out by certain circumstances (e.g. by a tyrannical ruler like Eparch).

 

Edited March 25 by Zok.4956

[Poormany.4507]

On 3/7/2024 at 4:25 PM, mandala.8507 said:

Could there be a piece of Eparch's motive that evokes some partial sympathy for his character that we are yet to discover? Sure. But I don't think it's going to be this "the villain was actually the savior all along" narrative people have been pining for over the years. Sometimes a tyrant is just a tyrant, guys.

After playing the last story part, I would not be surprised if there will be a reason revealed at the end for why Eparch went mad and started consuming his own people (Maybe tied into the Elder Dragons and/or a future Gods/Mists storyline?), which seems to be out of necessity rather than simple power hunger/greed based on Labris' statements (assuming those can be trusted...)

Queen Labris: Is there no limited to your arrogance? You believe yourself savior?

Queen Labris: You have no idea the commitment required to ensure the survival of our people.

...

Peitha: Tell me, Labris. Do you also share his appetites?

Queen Labris: We do that which must be done. That which the common—

However, given we only have one third of a chapter left in Nayos, most of which will probably be fighting our way into Eparch's fortress, before we go back to wrapping up unsolved Tyrian mysteries, I highly highly doubt "Peitha was evil all along!!!" will be a twist we'll get.

Edited April 1 by Poormany.4507

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Poormany.4507 said:

I would not be surprised if there will be a reason revealed at the end for why Eparch went mad and started consuming his own people (Maybe tied into the Elder Dragons and/or a future Gods/Mists storyline?), which seems to be out of necessity rather than simple power hunger/greed

I can't really see an emotionally resonant pathway for the narrative to take that involves justifying Eparch's deliberate cruelty in making a spectacle of executing the Kryptis who weren't loyal to him and weaponizing fear to forcefully subjugate and terrorize his people.

I see Labris and Eparch's mockery of Peitha simply as an insight into their character. These are the words of depraved despots who've stewed too long in their faux nobility that deserve as much credence as they carry compassion.

2 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

I highly highly doubt "Peitha was evil all along!!!" will be a twist we'll get.

And it continues to truly baffle me that this is a direction anyone is rooting for. I've seen people saying Peitha betraying us is the only ending to this Nayos arc that they could get behind, and I genuinely can't come up with an intelligent rationale as to why this wouldn't be a completely trash way to close out this expansion and ruin a perfectly fine character.

[Westenev.5289]

You know, just for once, I'd like to see a bad guy realize that turning on the reason for their success isn't the best gameplan. Just employ the demigod savior of the universe, give them a reward, then send them on their way.

[Noidea Incognito.9607]

The way i see it, Peitha uses the Commander, But the Commander also uses Peitha. Their goals align... for now.

Peitha needs the Commander and she has made that very clear from the start. She wasnt using the commander behind his back, she openly stated that she needs the commander.

I think we can also take into account that the Commander isnt just your regular mortal Hero; from the very start he was dealing with the Supernatural, beat impossible odds against the supernatural, raised and befriended perhaps the most powerfull supernatural creature in current Tyria history.

The Commander never really changed his demeanor/role/stance that much, wether it was mortal or the supernatural matters.

Because of that one would think the Commander has developed a unique perspective/sixth sense of looking beyond mere appearances(good judge of character), wether it is mortals or the supernatural; thus he was quickly to trust Peitha in being sincere/genuine about her intentions, despite being a demon. This might also be the reason why Peitha was drawn to the Commander in the 1st place. "hm, this seems like a reasonable unbiased Hero to chat with"

Since the Commander's origin is righteous/Good/Heroic by default, it reinforces the idea of Peitha being a good cookie, since she has gained the Commanders trust, ofcourse the Commander isnt all seeing, trust goes both ways. Peitha hasnt shown any actions that would deem her untrustworthy...

The Commander also owns her for saving his neck when that initial bad judgement(Heroic demeanor) call was made....

Curiosity almost killed the cat indeed(ima Charr) if it wasnt for Peitha. From a Hero/Good Cookie perspective, you have the noble obligation to "repay the favor", even if the savior seems questionable, besides, before that fatefull confrontation, Peitha and the Commander had already reached an understanding of sorts through their earlier conversations.

She had ofcourse a headstart by default, cause the commander is in unknown waters and Peitha is in her natural habitat. As of now they are on equal footing, but the final story bit will tells us if this remains or a major shift will happen.

yes, she was delving into the commanders mind, but that was only to learn more about what made him tick, if the commander could be the potential "wayfinder" out of her own predicaments, but again she didnt hide her presence and leeching information; as she was constantly speaking with the commander in an equal manner.

The fact that she made some Mistakes recently in the story either means:

A) she has only a genuine single minded goal and that is to takeover reigns from eparch and make the Kryptis kingdom peacefull, whatever the cost/casualties.

B)Her mind is in distress, showing impatience, clouding her judgment because of reason A... or something else?

C)Its rare moments that show her "Humanity/frailty" of not being in control of the situation like a Tough, scheming, calculated evil.

D)She is not what she seems to be and has a way bigger agenda and these "mistakes" are all part of a greater plan.

Is Peitha evil? Thats difficult to say, her behaviour/motivations/goal has been consistent up till this point, but then again it could be a convincing pokerface. o7

EDIT: What would be an crazy plot twist; Peitha turns out to be a very good cookie, sacrifices herself, bringing down Eparch, Her most loyal subjects to lead the Kryptis kingdom in her place. The commander shows his "darker side"... picks up her still living remains and reforges/blacksmiths those into an usefull converter called Peitha, complete with her usual banter.

Edited April 10 by Noidea Incognito.9607

[ugrakarma.9416]

these lines of general nephus is very interesting, its seems we are really involved in a long time dinastic dispute.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forced_Hand

General Nephus: For decades I have protected these people. Your people. Now their blood is on our hands.

General Nephus: You left me no choice. And you knew it. Just like your brother. Your uncle. Their plotting. Scheming.

General Nephus: Always ending in misery.

General Nephus: You owe our people. Your family owes us. Bring us something other than death.

 

 

Edited April 10 by ugrakarma.9416

[Balsa.3951]

On 3/11/2024 at 1:02 AM, Infinity.2876 said:

In general, throughout the story I take the stance of Galrath the undying. He says something like: "Peitha may be good or bad we don't know but I hope you can convince her to help us out."

I don't understand why the commander is naturally inclined to aid a powerful (at least enough to beat his brother) demon, when in lws2 we spend several chapters distrusting caithe when she literally stole an egg to protect it (which we wanted to do anyway). At the end of the day demons are demons and we get the impression that the human race has been being possessed by them for quite a long time. Why do we suddenly and whole heartedly agree to aid a kriptis in becoming queen. I would think we would be like: "Well I guess I'll join cause maybe when she's queen she'll help us out." and have like a suspicion that she would possibly be worse of a ruler than aparch. This would be disproven as we go through the story because she is trying to help them out. But then again, we haven't actually seen aparch consume any demons besides the one who did it willingly. 

That's why I am leaning on the side of Galrath. At the end of the day, they're still demons, and they still need emotions to consume and people to possess.

her name is Peitha

thats probably the biggest hint

Peitha-----Peitho

Greek the godess of persuasion 

my opinion is Peitha is on a mission for the gods

probably last episode we open the realm to the gods

god of war style expansion, with a companion besides us. a cute pokemon

the end

 

[Zok.4956]

On 3/5/2024 at 5:52 PM, Zok.4956 said:

So Eparch may not be a nice guy, he is the demon ruler after all, but perhaps Peitha is the real villain here. But I guess there is not enough remaining story for such a plot twist.

And it turned out worse than expected. Because the last part of the story was not only too short for a plot twist, it was also basically too short for any other kind of plot.

[Kalavier.1097]

Not every plot has to have a big twist.