Remember when blasting water fields was the way to heal?

[Coldtart.4785]

We need to go back.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Using a water field + a blast finisher + relic of karakosa is roughly 2.1k aoe heal without heal power investment. 

What a great deal for using 2 CDs and a relic slot. 

Double that and we might get somewhere. 

[Junkpile.7439]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Using a water field + a blast finisher + relic of karakosa is roughly 2.1k aoe heal without heal power investment. 

What a great deal for using 2 CDs and a relic slot. 

Double that and we might get somewhere. 

Idea is that 30 players use blast finisher

[DanAlcedo.3281]

6 minutes ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Idea is that 30 players use blast finisher

And the enemy is 30 people raining dmg on you.  So what's the point? 

I have not played Wvw for like a year. Did they reduce the dmg so much that a 2k aoe heal matters? 

That 2k heal took at minimum a CD + relic slot while each enemy should do more then that with auto attacks alone. 

Man, I remember the days when meteor showers did 10k+ dmg and that type of dmg was normal. 3k was auto attack dmg. 

Or good old 12-15k staff water 2.

Good times. 

 

Edited March 11 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

Pepperidge Farm remembers

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Using a water field + a blast finisher + relic of karakosa is roughly 2.1k aoe heal without heal power investment. 

What a great deal for using 2 CDs and a relic slot. 

Double that and we might get somewhere. 

You have no idea how strong relic of karkosa is lol.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You have no idea how strong relic of karkosa is lol.

Thats the point. 

I don't play Wvw anymore. My prime time was Hot and PoF. With much less time spend in Wvw in EoD. 

And I can't see how a tiny 800(0.5) that is very conditional is good. 

I genuinely can't. Especially when I sacrifice the very valuable relic slot for it. 

The outgoing dmg must be freaking tiny these days if this is worth playing. 

Or healers are garbage these days that instead of increasing their healing overall, they rely on maybe 2-3 skill on there kit doing a bit extra healing? 

 But to be fair, Im used to healers being able to heal for 12k+ very second passively. 

Who knows. 

Edited March 11 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Dawdler.8521]

14 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The outgoing dmg must be freaking tiny these days if this is worth playing. 

Well considering the meta is 4 out of 5 supports and two zergs can stand on top of each other without either dying, what do you think…

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well considering the meta is 4 out of 5 supports and two zergs can stand on top of each other without either dying, what do you think…

Ahhh! Now that an answer. 

I played when 2 support + 2 dps + 1 utility was meta. 

Firebrand. 

Scrapper. 

Scourge. 

Herald. 

Chrono/Spellbreaker. 

Being the meta. 

[Dawdler.8521]

7 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Ahhh! Now that an answer. 

I played when 2 support + 2 dps + 1 utility was meta. 

Firebrand. 

Scrapper. 

Scourge. 

Herald. 

Chrono/Spellbreaker. 

Being the meta. 

Yeah kind of obsolete… Anet nerfed scrapper to oblivion so that no longer exist and all your DPS in there is full minstrels. Even on meta battle I see now that builds have “Chinese” in the name lol. 

Oh glorious immortal boonballs. Everyone play them and everyone hate them.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

38 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah kind of obsolete… Anet nerfed scrapper to oblivion so that no longer exist and all your DPS in there is full minstrels. Even on meta battle I see now that builds have “Chinese” in the name lol. 

Oh glorious immortal boonballs. Everyone play them and everyone hate them.

Side question. 

Is Perma alac in squads a thing now? 

Except for some very short moments, that was not a thing Historicaly. 

Because that would make karakosa a bit more understandable. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Thats the point. 

I don't play Wvw anymore. My prime time was Hot and PoF. With much less time spend in Wvw in EoD. 

And I can't see how a tiny 800(0.5) that is very conditional is good. 

I genuinely can't. Especially when I sacrifice the very valuable relic slot for it. 

The outgoing dmg must be freaking tiny these days if this is worth playing. 

Or healers are garbage these days that instead of increasing their healing overall, they rely on maybe 2-3 skill on there kit doing a bit extra healing? 

 But to be fair, Im used to healers being able to heal for 12k+ very second passively. 

Who knows. 

You should do math, and some theory-crafting bro.

Before understanding how effective Relic of Karkosa is, you need some reference frame to compare the skill to something else.

Wash The Pain Away

Let's take Wash The Pain Away with no gear on which is 4314 Healing every 25 seconds. WTPA also hits x5 targets so 4314 x 5 = 21,570. over the course of 180 seconds (a 3 minute engagement) you can use it 7 times. 4313 x 5 x 7 = 155,304 every 3 minutes

Relic of Karkosa

Relic of Karkosa with no healing power investment, does 800 healing which is actually pretty normal. But it can effect more than one target (x5). 800 x 5 =  4000 healing every time you use a blast finisher. 

Then you gotta ask how often can you use a blast finisher. Skills with different cooldowns can be chunked into a single bulk operation, which boils down into how many times you can blast finish in a given period of time. for 180 seconds, if you use skills that do a blast finishers every 4 seconds on average your triggering Karkosa 45 times. 800 x 5 x 45 = 180,000 every 3 minutes.

And using a blast finisher every 4 seconds is pretty generous, because builds that actually trait into going on a Karkosa build can do blast-finishers faster than this (there's a build that can do blast finishers once every second...and other more practical ones, that are not far behind it with once every 2 seconds).

Full Heal Borg 

For comparison, on a fully borged out healer, who's gearing for heals and proccing blast finishers with Karkosa in mind as its relic, Karkosa does 2400 x 100%(outgoing healing) x 5 (targets) x 90 (blast finisher every 2 seconds) = 2,160,000 Healing every 3 minutes...which already puts it above most other healing skills in the game (including WTPA). Adjust Outgoing healing % to the build your using, and average out your blast finishers per time, and you'll get a range between several hundred thousand, to several millions.

As far as my knowledge is, I've only found Warrior and Elementalist builds that are able to do Blast finishers every 2 seconds. But putting on Karkosa, even if you aren't pumping Blast Finishers as your main focus, like say on a guardian cycling their normal weapon rotation, and running Hammer Spirit Weapon, makes it a very good option to other relics...So depending on how many BF's you can push out, it actually makes it BIS over monks in some cases.

Edited March 11 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You should do math, and some theory-crafting bro.

Before understanding how effective Relic of Karkosa is, you need some reference frame to compare the skill to something else.

Wash The Pain Away

Let's take Wash The Pain Away with no gear on which is 4314 Healing every 25 seconds. WTPA also hits x5 targets so 4314 x 5 = 21,570. over the course of 180 seconds (a 3 minute engagement) you can use it 7 times. 4313 x 5 x 7 = 155,304 every 3 minutes

Relic of Karkosa

Relic of Karkosa with no healing power investment, does 800 healing which is actually pretty normal. But it can effect more than one target (x5). 800 x 5 =  4000 healing every time you use a blast finisher. 

Then you gotta ask how often can you use a blast finisher. Skills with different cooldowns can be chunked into a single bulk operation, which boils down into how many times you can blast finish in a given period of time. for 180 seconds, if you use skills that do a blast finishers every 4 seconds on average your triggering Karkosa 45 times. 800 x 5 x 45 = 180,000 every 3 minutes.

And using a blast finisher every 4 seconds is pretty generous, because builds that actually trait into going on a Karkosa build can do blast-finishers faster than this (there's a build that can do blast finishers once every second...and other more practical ones, that are not far behind it with once every 2 seconds).

Full Heal Borg 

For comparison, on a fully borged out healer, who's gearing for heals and proccing blast finishers with Karkosa in mind as its relic, Karkosa does 2400 x 100%(outgoing healing) x 5 (targets) x 90 (blast finisher every 2 seconds) = 2,160,000 Healing every 3 minutes...which already puts it above most other healing skills in the game (including WTPA). Adjust Outgoing healing % to the build your using, and average out your blast finishers per time, and you'll get a range between several hundred thousand, to several millions.

As far as my knowledge is, I've only found Warrior and Elementalist builds that are able to do Blast finishers every 2 seconds. But putting on Karkosa, even if you aren't pumping Blast Finishers as your main focus, like say on a guardian running Hammer Spirit Weapon, makes it a very good option to other relics...So depending on how many BF's you can push out, it actually makes it BIS over monks in some cases.

I did not consider that people get blast finisher that often these days. Especially not when people make their overall build worse by playing the Spirit Hammer. 

Take Firebrand for example, it has only 1 blast every 8s on staff and that pretty much it.  Here, karakosa would be pointless. 

Which was the only viable support for most of GW2 lifespan. Add Scrapper for a while too. 

Also, that is my old Wvw brain working but the idea of Warrior or ele being viable support is kinda crazy to me. 

Much has changed huh? Not so long ago, support Tempest was a complete meme. 

Warrior in general was a joke outside bubble. 

 

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

We need to go back.

Why?

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah kind of obsolete… Anet nerfed scrapper to oblivion so that no longer exist and all your DPS in there is full minstrels. Even on meta battle I see now that builds have “Chinese” in the name lol. 

Oh glorious immortal boonballs. Everyone play them and everyone hate them.

Why you confusing the guy who hasn't played in awhile? Support scrapper returning to the meta and dps doesn't run minstrels...

Also, kind of weird to have this thread talking about blasting fields as if it's a thing of the past filled with talk about rhe latest scrapper and karakossa...

Edited March 11 by Chaba.5410

[Swamurabi.7890]

Just listening (and following) to the audio of the stack commands, blast commands, move commands, bomb commands, regroup commands, push commands, focus on down commands as well as the players saying when the skills were ready was magical when coordinated.

Maybe it was too high a ceiling to last.

But it was fun.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:17 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I did not consider that people get blast finisher that often these days. Especially not when people make their overall build worse by playing the Spirit Hammer. 

 

I mean you have a free utility slot on Firebrand (sanctuary is not necessary) to take Hammer of Wisdom, which has two ammo's. 

 

On 3/11/2024 at 10:17 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Which was the only viable support for most of GW2 lifespan. Add Scrapper for a while too. 

Also, that is my old Wvw brain working but the idea of Warrior or ele being viable support is kinda crazy to me. 

Much has changed huh? Not so long ago, support Tempest was a complete meme. 

Warrior in general was a joke outside bubble. 

 

Ya i think you just haven't played in a while. Elementalist, Druid, Warrior, Revenant and more now (Support Scourge, and Support Chrono but i don't play these so i won't mention them) are viable healers...especially Druid which is why its getting nerfed this upcoming patch. 

Edited March 12 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisingDawn.5796]

The meta evolved in the wrong direction, but there are so many elite specs, stat combinations, now we have relics added in over the years. 

It's  no excuse for them, yet to balance all this, has been too much for them to handle, especially  for different game modes, despite them saying they would be focused on, separate  Profession balancing, for each mode.

Edited March 11 by RisingDawn.5796

[ArchonWing.9480]

It's not even the fact we had to blast water fields, it's the fact that nobody even has to care about blasting water fields (or any field) except as an afterthought because everyone craps out so much healing and barrier that  who really cares about accuracy. It's mostly just hit your buttons off cooldown after you finally commit besides like whatever few big skills your build has. And they are usually very boring because a lot of elite specs have skills with short cooldowns and so misusing it isn't a big deal.

Of course you still blast fields anyways. And given how much crap is on the ground at any time, you can use a blast finisher at pretty much any given time and hit something anyways. But nobody cares since it'll happen in a few seconds anyways.

And of course, even if someone does mess up, then who really cares? Just use one of those many insta res carry me skills.

So besides showing off in arcdps logs in fights you would have won anyways, meh.

edit: The other day I was like on my tempest and was like hey you noticed my 30%+ frost aura on my party because I blasted every ice field? That's like a lot of chill and damage reduction but then people told me nobody cares because druids and vindis faceroll the keyboard and do more damage reduction gtfo cleansebot just cleanse, so I was like w/e why even bother. And yes I know generating an aura cleanses a condi but still nobody cares.

I'm just looking for some kind of skill expression.  I usually play Firebrand in groups  and literally nobody cares about what you do on that unless you're afk.

Edited March 11 by ArchonWing.9480

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Pepperidge Farm remembers

lol, good I am not the only one still using that line. 😉 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i member

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

As an ele player, I still do this.  I set up and then blast water finishers all the time, both to heal myself and also small-scale allies.  They really appreciate it when I drop 3 water blasts on them all at once.  

[Coldtart.4785]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:37 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

Why?

Are you really asking why I think the current strength of healing is too high and the effort too low?

[Chaba.5410]

29 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Are you really asking why I think the current strength of healing is too high and the effort too low?

I'm not a mind reader.  I'd rather not presume to know your reasoning.

For example, you wrote nothing about the effort, only about blasting fields for heals.  The irony is that everyone started talking about Karakosa which involves blasting fields.  So no, I don't think your concern about healing being too high and effort too low is really solved by your short statement.  Have you really thought this through?  Put that relic on everyone and healing would be even higher from more people being able to heal on blast.

Edited March 12 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I'm not a mind reader.  I'd rather not presume to know your reasoning.

For example, you wrote nothing about the effort, only about blasting fields for heals.  The irony is that everyone started talking about Karakosa which involves blasting fields.  So no, I don't think your concern about healing being too high and effort too low is really solved by your short statement.  Have you really thought this through?  Put that relic on everyone and healing would be even higher from more people being able to heal on blast.

The thing about Karakosa is that it is just blasting any field. It can even just be fields you make yourself so there is less need for coordination since the odds of hitting any field at random in the middle of a fight is pretty damned high.

On the other hand, back when people blasted water, it was important to blast the right field so calls actually had to be made regarding placing the water field. Water fields were also not as common. It was also important to not put down the wrong fields. Though to be fair light fields used to be worse.

Nobody is going to call for blasting Karakosa because it would just clog up comms for no good reason.

Whether this is worse or better is subjective, but regardless it's hard to argue that there's equal or more skill expression on Karakosa than properly blasting a water field.

 

Edited March 12 by ArchonWing.9480