Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

[PaladinVII.1647]

I am interested in seeing what you have done, and concerned that you have not brought coming changes before the public for commentary.

[Xibalbar.7459]

DAMAGE OVER TIME in this game is more like powerdamage. I dont understand the trouble here. Condis at the beginning of mmos was more a way for sustained damage, not like the main source of power. I totaly love this patch and i hope we see some more enjoyable fights in wvw and spvp. For pve? I believe you can life with the changes, we had to life 3years with overpaced condis.

[trueanimus.4085]

so in other words.. you nerfed reaper shroud to force people into scourge and now you are taking away all the damage from scourge? the burst in WvW is the only real damage it has at the moment because of the bubbles and condi clear ... or am i reading these notes wrong?

[Joxer.6024]

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

[Xibalbar.7459]

@Joxer.6024 said:

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

Send me your gold before you quit.

[Joxer.6024]

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

Send me your gold before you quit.

lol, I get where you are going with this and it makes me sad......that and 2g wont do much for ya! ;)

[Xibalbar.7459]

@Joxer.6024 said:

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

Send me your gold before you quit.

lol, I get where you are going with this and it makes me sad......that and 2g wont do much for ya! ;)

We both know you wont quit. That is the reason why i wrote it. Guess what? I was spending tons of hours learning different classes/builds in spvp and everytime a patch, a addon or new amuletts or other different things killed my expirence and i had to start at beginning. Its a journey and you have to take it like it is. If you leave ( you wont, you love your renegade, doesnt matter what happens) nothing will change.

[Joxer.6024]

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

Send me your gold before you quit.

lol, I get where you are going with this and it makes me sad......that and 2g wont do much for ya! ;)

We both know you wont quit. That is the reason why i wrote it. Guess what? I was spending tons of hours learning different classes/builds in spvp and everytime a patch, a addon or new amuletts or other different things killed my expirence and i had to start at beginning. Its a journey and you have to take it like it is. If you leave ( you wont, you love your renegade, doesnt matter what happens) nothing will change.

BINGO!! I reckon all we can do is hope that someday ANET will do the right thing and make changes that benefit classes overall and not kill any certain one outright. We shall see in a few days if we have to yet start again! ;)

[Yukio blaster.9082]

Well my advice to you dev's are:

1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.
2. Healing builds like firebrand are good for the health of the game, but 1200 healing power from the magi amulet is so OP and + the water rune that's just crazy, 1375 healing power is broken . especially in high lvl pvp games when any profession+firebrand= immortality and you can only outrun them if you rotate better so i guess the amulet should be banned or remove the vitality from it so that OP firebrand can be killed if bursted right .3.The condi builds are more powerful than power build because most condi build have a lot more health than any power build can .the condi builds have to worry about only two things, condition damage and expertise for more duration and the expertise isn't much important because the conditions already last a good amount of time, and its not needed in most cases. and they still can do a lot of dmg with a good survivability by the high vitality or the extra toughness you can have . however power build have to worry about 4 things the power and the prevision and the ferocity and concentration so to achieve that all the power based builds sacrifice the survivability by reducing vitality and toughness so they became glass and easy to kill by condi builds, i guess this is not fair .and more than that the power builds can't have something like toughness to to reduce condi damage let's call it resistance ,that he can base his build on it and not just some other boon .4.The amount of condition that a necro can apply are crazy he can put more than 8 condi or more in one burst so the condi cleanse are useless especially that they don't base the condi removal on the higher damaging condition but on the last one applied as far as i know, so remove the possibility from the necro to transfer more than 3 condi using the signet and just cleans the other ones. and remove the bleeding from the necro staff cos i believe it dos not make sense. bleed should be a mele condi only the same thing about the new change on mesmer staff when you changed to burning and bleeding.5.Last one is about thief i guess that the traits of trickery are more op than the other one so it make it hard for any thief player to not use it its essential more than the elite specs because of the extra 3 initiative that can give. my suggestion is the remove the +3 init and only make it +1 init and instead +2 init to the original number of init so that more builds can rotate and use more shadow art or acrobatics .Tanks for this opportunity hope those suggestion gonna be considered somehow and good luck.

[Xibalbar.7459]

@Joxer.6024 said:

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@Xibalbar.7459 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:

@notebene.3190 said:This will probably get buried in everything else, but I'm wondering how this will effect a (mostly) solo PvE'r in PoF? My Renegade is my only condi character, and was curious as to how it would effect her.

I am with you on this one. I play Renegade for raids except where not really viable and I think I would give serious thoughts of going back to WOW if they kill Renegade with this. Now, make more power classes for everyone, all modes, and someone will buy you guys a drink! Just don't kill any one class please. ;)

Send me your gold before you quit.

lol, I get where you are going with this and it makes me sad......that and 2g wont do much for ya! ;)

We both know you wont quit. That is the reason why i wrote it. Guess what? I was spending tons of hours learning different classes/builds in spvp and everytime a patch, a addon or new amuletts or other different things killed my expirence and i had to start at beginning. Its a journey and you have to take it like it is. If you leave ( you wont, you love your renegade, doesnt matter what happens) nothing will change.

BINGO!! I reckon all we can do is hope that someday ANET will do the right thing and make changes that benefit classes overall and not kill any certain one outright. We shall see in a few days if we have to yet start again! ;)

It will change the meta, for every mode maybe or we see some others builds reaching the tops. Same as usual in every mmo. I crafted nevermore for my ele pvp at the start of hot, next season it wasnt viable and i ended with dagger/focus. It happens. Why should it not? For pvp and wvw the condi was kinda weird. You had to take all cleanses you could have and still you was in a disadvantage. Not every class, not every build had struggle, but specially lowlife specs tended to be food if you are not the smartest of the smartest players. Its healthier in all, for everyone. How it will work in pve, i really dont know, but you can stack maybe more over longer times and you have more damage working. But im not a pro for this kind of encounter.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:Now ,there are too many cleaning skills. After the update, condition damage will be useless in PvP (wvw).And there are few weapons that are directly damage , only to choose conditionSo much this. Conditions are not a choice, or a move to be countered by a particular defense. They are dropped, en masse, by every skill a condition build has. People complain about condition spam, but there's no other choice for a condi weapon user. Some autoattack chains drop 2 or 3 different conditions, even without player input. How do you build balance/countermove system around that? Either you drop enough conditions to be effective, or all your damage is negated by a universal counter (condi cleanse). The middle ground is razor thin.

Condi builds are fundamentally the same as power builds - you attack until the target dies. It's a part of the class design. I'm not sure how they can fix it without a

major

overhaul. The only idea I have is to split every cleanse into dps/control cleanses, instead of every cleanse being a universal counter to everything.

Anet needs to make a detailed classification of the condition, and simple modifications will destroy many buildings,the way of condition works is too extreme

[otto.5684]

@"KeoLegend.5132" said:im just laughing at the condi elitists scared of losing theyr pacifier.Its about time condi starts to get reduced. In fact they should at max deal EQUAL damage compared to power because:

1) Easier rotation2) Less things to worry about3) No RNG4) Less melee-oriented

Whats the point on playing a safer, easier class while dealing more damage than the one that needs more mechanics? I dont need my Power DH's damage to rise, but rather to bring down all condis to a point that the choices for raids will be based in "We need things killed quickly" or "This boss isn't as mobile as the other, we can bring condi for DoT's"

Also, all classes should have viable Power Damage, especialy Spellbreaker which is such a fun class to play but the medíocre damage makes us have to play boring condi warrior over and over

Here is a funny story. Strongest condo burst builds in sPvP are core guardian and renegade. Neither of them is viable in sPvP (in renegade case should never ever be played in sPvP). This change only nerf already underperforming condi builds.

I strongly agree that all classes should have a viable power build in PvE, but that is not cuz condi builds are taking their place. If we nerf all condi builds to oblivion tomorrow, PvE raids will be dominated by ele and guardian.

[Lunateric.3708]

@KeoLegend.5132 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@KeoLegend.5132 said:Forgive my ignorance but where in the world is power better than condi on raids

Just going to paste a response from reddit when this came up in the balance thread there.

vg strongly favors power, gorseval favors power (but not by a huge margin), sabetha... kinda depends, usually condies do better but not by a huge margin, with more tweaks power might become the superior option.

slothasor is go power or go home, mathias is sort of neutral but condies generally do better.

kc is power or bust, xera depends on your strategy, i like her better with condies but if you wanna do her on the edge sub 50% you must use power.

cairn is a dps golem anyway but condies generally do better because of torment and confusion shenanigans, MO is literally a dps golem, samarog strongly favours power and deimos is mostly neutral.

Raids have always been slightly in favor of power but as I mentioned in my previous post there is very little viable power builds left since anet gutted a lot of them already for PvE. These weak power builds need to be buffed and nerfing condi builds just widens the already gap between certain power favored bosses. It would be one thing if there was a lot more viable power builds out there but there isn't. I shouldn't have to swap to Ele or DH when we do KC since Rev's only viable dps right now is condi and they are now trying to take that away.

well then im the most dumb player ever. Because ppl told me to make a condi cuz my DH power would suck on raids and here i am after spendind over 700 G to make the perfect condi warrior/banner slave which honestly is 50% of the fun i had with my risky DH

That's your own fault tbh, I don't blindly believe what anyone tells me. For future reference you can check places like:

• https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats - thousands of raid logs, also has fractal CM logs/rankings per individual encounter.

• https://snowcrows.com for builds and encounter tips and tricks.

Spoiler: the best global damage isn't a Condi build ;)

[Knetik.4356]

Meanwhile most of us Elementalists are just bad for pvp in general. Any help here?

[Titan.3472]

Scourge is the only class that can safely go melee and everyone else can't deal with aoe spam AND dealing enough damage to take it down.Scourge using toughness + condition damage base gears : have a passive direct damage mitigation, spam aoe UNRESISTED conditions damage pressure, debuff melee dps with weakness, convert and corrupt boons, heal from condition they get, and sands shades walls of aoe heal skills ABSORD damage ofc... (at this point mobility is NOT an issue as you can just stand by and Watch people melt around you... So much about "skills") like wtf is wrong with people... this class is obviously BROKEN : your only safe option is range dps burst it (with glass canon power based gear... which is super squishy and you can also die super fast) or be another scourge to counter the so-called condi-meta-lol.But everything is fine right : a class with all these advantages is NOT BROKEN, right ?With all the list above you can call for Heavy Hammer nerf not small minor patches.Noone having fun except people playing scourge (thinking "wtf ! I can click anything it's all IWIN button lulz") ofc...

[Shiyo.3578]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Well my advice to you dev's are:

1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.

Please people who are in charge of pvp/balance at Anet, completely ignore this quoted post. Slow pvp is really, really, really unfun. Pretty much every other MMO on the market has super slow pvp - people who want that can play one of those games. Keep this game fast paced.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:A lot of classes have to use 3 defensive utilities in WVW tho. And you don't need DPS utilities with weaver, 10k meteor shower crits with 3 defensive utilities, and an autoattack that can kitten near 2 shot any glass builds, your DPS is just fine.

A Zerk ele will need that defense, having 11k health and base armor, that is a death sentence just by being looked at, especially as Staff. Other classes have defense built in so can go zerk and still survive, unless focused of course and even then the likes of Warriors can STILL get away with ease. Revenants even also going full zerk will still have more health and more amour. That alone is a big benefit.

[Mitsuko.3162]

You need to boost mesmers back after the 40% damage nerf, this is going to basically reduce them even more. Thanks but no thanks. My decision - quit the game.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

Something else that NEEDS to be done. Remove the AoE condition application from Scourges using their shade skills, keep the effects like the condi removal and such but the Torment, Cripple and Burning (if traited) should come from the shades ONLY making Scourge have an AoE of condi spamming around themselves was just VERY stupid. That MIGHT give Melee people an actual (if still only majorly slim) chance of actually winning.

[saerni.2584]

Re-reminder that Anet says “some” skills in OP. This will not be a universal nerf to all condition applying skills.

They gave the example of 3 burn at 5 seconds to 2 burn at 8. This works because 3 burn can lose a stack and lose 33% damage per tick while gaining an extra tick overall.

This works less for skills that apply a single stack. You can’t reduce the stacks applied to zero. Likewise, some single stack skills may need durations buffed if other skills lose stacks in order to achieve the ramp up in damage overall that Anet wants to see.

[corey.6451]

Why not just change all the big main condi skill, and make it works similar to the warior sword 4. It a really well ramp up example.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@saerni.2584 said:Re-reminder that Anet says “some” skills in OP. This will not be a universal nerf to all condition applying skills.

They gave the example of 3 burn at 5 seconds to 2 burn at 8. This works because 3 burn can lose a stack and lose 33% damage per tick while gaining an extra tick overall.

This works less for skills that apply a single stack. You can’t reduce the stacks applied to zero. Likewise, some single stack skills may need durations buffed if other skills lose stacks in order to achieve the ramp up in damage overall that Anet wants to see.

It will be a typical Anet change, They will reduce some skills, wont touch the ones that NEED to be nurfed and still somehow end up buffing every condi build anyway :/Based on experience, i have very low expectations of this update. Sure its not the big one (that we should have had months ago!) but somehow, i just think condi builds will still end up being stronger than they are now :/

[Miles Smiles.8951]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Rengaru.4730 said:Of course I don't know the full balance changes so I could be mistaken, but wouldn't the proposed chage to Mutilate Defenses destroy the synergy it already has with the other Devastation traits (namely Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning) especially in AoE situations?

Yes.

If they go through with that trait change to power revenant I will actually delete mine. Clueless about their own game.

Apparently that's exactly what they're aiming at. Dunno why tho

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:On top of that they are mostly full bunker condi as well because they only need 1 offensive stat as well.No one is doing that in PVE, people use primarily Viper there.

[lunaeclipse.6843]

@KeoLegend.5132 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@KeoLegend.5132 said:Forgive my ignorance but where in the world is power better than condi on raids

Just going to paste a response from reddit when this came up in the balance thread there.

vg strongly favors power, gorseval favors power (but not by a huge margin), sabetha... kinda depends, usually condies do better but not by a huge margin, with more tweaks power might become the superior option.

slothasor is go power or go home, mathias is sort of neutral but condies generally do better.

kc is power or bust, xera depends on your strategy, i like her better with condies but if you wanna do her on the edge sub 50% you must use power.

cairn is a dps golem anyway but condies generally do better because of torment and confusion shenanigans, MO is literally a dps golem, samarog strongly favours power and deimos is mostly neutral.

Raids have always been slightly in favor of power but as I mentioned in my previous post there is very little viable power builds left since anet gutted a lot of them already for PvE. These weak power builds need to be buffed and nerfing condi builds just widens the already gap between certain power favored bosses. It would be one thing if there was a lot more viable power builds out there but there isn't. I shouldn't have to swap to Ele or DH when we do KC since Rev's only viable dps right now is condi and they are now trying to take that away.

well then im the most dumb player ever. Because ppl told me to make a condi cuz my DH power would suck on raids and here i am after spendind over 700 G to make the perfect condi warrior/banner slave which honestly is 50% of the fun i had with my risky DH

Why the kitten did you... nvm.

Dude literally every pug group i go into for pve raiding there's at least 1 DH.

And as far as less rng and less melee oriented goes...

Power builds always build for 100% crit chance. If you don't youre doing it wrong. Power builds also have far less passive procs to rely on than Condi builds do (see hidden barbs and rampent vex for ranger and rev respectively).

Less melee reliant? Condi weaver/ rev/ firebrand all say hi.