Fighting thief feels like you're fighting a hacker

[Kuya.6495]

50 minutes ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

And I say once again, your critique is invalid - World of warcraft is a much slower paced game than guild wars but rogues have PERMA stealth with a movement speed decrease ( which can talent spec'd for faster speed in stealth). They can be knocked out of stealth by any AOE attacks and Hunters (Wow's equivalent to rangers) can have their pits sniff out stealthed enemies, or shoot a flare the exposes stealthed enemies, and all players can occasionally detect stealthed players who move too close and too frequently to enemy players, but the main point is that they PERMA STEALTH on demand. That's a decent list of pros and cons that makes stealth balanced in WoW. 

Now in GW2 - Stealth is TEMPORARY, no more than 2 or three seconds.
You can still take damage in stealth, the revealed debuff means that unlike in WoW you can't go straight back into stealth instantly after opening a fight with an enemy. and plenty of classes have access to reveal. Not to mention stealth is not unique to thief. So the biggest factor to counterplaying stealth is the fact that it is TEMPORARY ( people have no idea how important this is) just have some patience kitten, stealth is not hard to play against, I already explained.
 

I think I would prefer GW2 stealth work like WoW stealth. If stealth here worked like WoW stealth, there also wouldn't be a need for reveal anymore. And I'm sure many thiefs would appreciate it if reveal was no longer a thing. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

It's annoying. But don't waste too much time on them. Don't chase invisible players. They are just wasting your time. If you're a tank, just stay on your point. They can't usually win that and run off or waste their time while you are holding the point. If not, fight elsewhere and stay out of chases you cannot win.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

This is circular reasoning- you can't justify you argument against the thief by stating that its strong when you play to it's strengths of engaging in +1 fights roaming and therefore its actually low skill.

+1 is litterally the safest and easiest damage application in the game, and thief is the best at it. In any given +1, players will turn on the thief, who will simply escape, allowing the thiefs team mates free damage OR, they continue attacking the same target, and thief gets free damage. Either way, that is low risk, high impact gameplay, and its damage can be utilised at lower skill levels spamming 1 button.

 

I won't be convinced the class has a high skill floor when the average thief tries to play it like an SPB. Its like saying necro has a high skill floor becuase they over rely on the double life, push the back line and die with no wurm placed. Necro has no business pushing back lines and complaining when they die, just as thief has no business trying to 1v1 anything that moves. I mean, does a full support core gaurd have a high skill floor becuase it tried to side node?

Edited May 17 by Flowki.7194

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

You must be lying

No you. Wow, arguing like this is easy. Like most Thief builds.

1 hour ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

Ill agree that thief is pretty 1 dimensional mechanically which makes it seem pretty easy in that sense. Understanding how your build works is simple.

But, the timing and evades comment is wrong.  Vs any players with a brain, thats the most important thing... you shouldve realized that when you fought my DH in the ffa pit with your thief

Notice I said:

4 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

You can beat most players

Most players don't have 10 years of experience like you.

Relatively speaking though, other problems in the game need more focus right now. Ranger sustain and projectile hate come to the front of my mind.

Edited May 17 by bethekey.8314

[Saiyan.1704]

5 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

your critique is invalid - .....continues to talk about another MMO game as a counter argument.....

I remember your previous posts now. You're the guy that thinks all the high skill ceiling/floor/walls/4th dimension classes should be meta 100% of the time and refuses to acknowledge the "easy to play" specs in the game. When ever we talk about QoL issues with a class such as Thief, you always come back to that same underlying argument of yours. "other classes are ez. dis class is hard. Teef should win cause hard."

I think most of the people in the thread steered the conversation to, just QoL changes, but not a direct nerf to thief. DH trapper runes wasn't even meta in higher tier games but their stealth got removed completely anyways. Because other players hated playing against it. I feel changes to thief/DE or giving players better reveal options, are inevitable.

Edited May 18 by Saiyan.1704

[Last Crab.6054]

11 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think no one is making the argument that thief is easy. I've used it before and I know it's hard to play.

The real valid critique for thief (and mesmer), is with how stealth works in the game. Specifically that it has little counterplay. If someone goes stealth there are very few things you can do to pull them out of it if you're not a sic em soulbeast, dragonhunter or lockon engineer. Many reveals require a target in the first place. There is very little access to reveal. In other games stealth either has a visual tell so you can still find someone who is in stealth or it has obvious downsides (speed debuff, no healing, etc). 

Stealth in gw2 has little counterplay and little downsides. And it makes for a frustrating experience for the player having to face someone in stealth. 

Not EVERYONE gets a tool to handle EVERYONE, though SOMEONE does

[Daenxi.4530]

3 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

I remember your previous posts now. You're the guy that thinks all the high skill ceiling/floor/walls/4th dimension classes should be meta 100% of the time and refuses to acknowledge the "easy to play" specs in the game. When ever we talk about QoL issues with a class such as Thief, you always come back to that same underlying argument of yours. "other classes are ez. dis class is hard. Teef should win cause hard."

I think most of the people in the thread steered the conversation to, just QoL changes, but not a direct nerf to thief. DH trapper runes wasn't even meta in higher tier games but their stealth got removed completely anyways. Because other players hated playing against it. I feel changes to thief/DE or giving players better reveal options, are inevitable.

You say that like it's unreasonable - players should be rewarded for engaging more with the game and learning the highly technical professions and playstyles.. A thief fighting against the big 3 low skill floor professions of Guardian, Necromancer and Ranger, the Thief has no natural advantages against these professions (as opposed to having a natural advantage over Mesmer and revenant)
Now Engineers and Rangers are considered to be the actual direct counters to thief, but Guardian and Necromancer also qualify for this too. 
IF YOU LOSE TO A THIEF, YOU WERE OUTPLAYED BY A MORE SKILLED PLAYER, WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE GAME BETTER THAN YOU DO.

[Shagie.7612]

remember thief is always the worst class who can never win anything but they're all actually just infinitely more skilled than us mere mortals

[Saiyan.1704]

13 minutes ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

You say that like it's unreasonable

It's extremely unreasonable. You're telling everyone to only play 3 or 4 professions out of the 9 this game has.

[Daenxi.4530]

I'm sorry people but considering the fact that most professions are pretty tanky, if you can't handle a thief, it's because you are not used to having to THINK in real time and OUTPLAY your enemy, but I get it, if you play necro, gaurdian, and even ranger (to some extent) you are not used to having to get out of being outplayed, but I don't entirely blame you, where is the incentive to be creative if I can just spam wells, and marks on a necro to prevent points from being captured or just laydown all my traps as a dragonhunter and be done with it.

[arazoth.7290]

55 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

remember thief is always the worst class who can never win anything but they're all actually just infinitely more skilled than us mere mortals

Meanwhile some thiefs stand in my relic of sunless doing 10k damage to them and die, must be not their fault 😐

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

You say that like it's unreasonable - players should be rewarded for engaging more with the game and learning the highly technical professions and playstyles.. A thief fighting against the big 3 low skill floor professions of Guardian, Necromancer and Ranger, the Thief has no natural advantages against these professions (as opposed to having a natural advantage over Mesmer and revenant)
Now Engineers and Rangers are considered to be the actual direct counters to thief, but Guardian and Necromancer also qualify for this too. 
IF YOU LOSE TO A THIEF, YOU WERE OUTPLAYED BY A MORE SKILLED PLAYER, WHO KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE GAME BETTER THAN YOU DO.

Bro, you need to work on your lying skills so at least it could be a bit believable. Teef counters Necromancers and so does it counter Guardians, Engineer only have tools to "fight back" teefs for x amount of time, but it's far from any form of counter. Ranger should be the one hunting them, but it's slightly better MU than Engies. Spellbreaker does have tools to fight them, but they're not winning fights, they're just pest repellent at most.
Reading some of these comments it makes me think that you teef players never fought against other teefs on different classes.
Blind spam alone is winning against 3 classes from get-go, now add some mobility/teleports and evades.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm sorry for not contributing anything but commentary I just

think y'all have all the bases covered

go team

Quote

Teef counters Necromancers and so does it counter Guardians

Quote

Bro, you need to work on your lying skills so at least it could be a bit believable

He's just wild with it, I love it here

Quote

No you. Wow, arguing like this is easy. Like most Thief builds.

@bethekey.8314 I'd fight with you but you -did- hit a 10k on a downstate willbender so 💀 I'll mind my business for now

Edited May 18 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[phixion.9428]

Not necessarily directed towards thief and i did not think it all way through, but i maybe would deal with stealth in gw2 like this:

Since i do not think, that stealth is by itself a problem, i think an abusive duration or too many/ too short cds become a problem. I would add a longer revealed debuff when you exit stealth by attacking (like 5 secs or something at least) and also add 1 sec reveal when dropping out of stealth without attacking. You cannot stack stealth from different skills anymore (so you have to chain different stealth applying skills from utilties or weapons either perfectly after another or you have a 1 sec reveal inbetween them), but you still can stack stealth by combo fields/finisher. Missing attacks out of stealth (like dodged, blinded, blocked) will reveal, then you can also delete this annoying icd on backstap.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 5/16/2024 at 7:56 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

People been trying to kill thief for years unsuccessfully by trying to argue they shouldn't be allowed to do thief things

Take the hint 💀

Anet is laughing at y'all.

 

Kind of sad, being laughed at for pointing out that thief has been defining the meta for 10 years.

[bethekey.8314]

On 5/18/2024 at 11:25 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@bethekey.8314 I'd fight with you but you -did- hit a 10k on a downstate willbender so 💀 I'll mind my business for now

11k* no lying or @Daenxi.4530 will come after you.

And you actually play interesting Thief builds, which I respect. That and the thieves who master timings/ports to maximize otherwise basic builds.

[Frequency.6407]

The amount of outrage in this thread is proof enough that Anet has really got it right with thief (and to some extent mesmer as well).

1. Obnoxious > check

2. Stealth mechanics that want to make you smash keyboard > check

3. Infinite ability to annoy in PvP > check

This is exactly my goal when playing thief/mesmer. I want to be as annoying as possible without dying. Decapping nodes behind peoples back, throwing everything in a 1vX situation and stealth away like nothing happened. Coming back to decap node when nobody's looking.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Frequency.6407 said:

The amount of outrage in this thread is proof enough that Anet has really got it right with thief (and to some extent mesmer as well).

1. Obnoxious > check

2. Stealth mechanics that want to make you smash keyboard > check

3. Infinite ability to annoy in PvP > check

This is exactly my goal when playing thief/mesmer. I want to be as annoying as possible without dying. Decapping nodes behind peoples back, throwing everything in a 1vX situation and stealth away like nothing happened. Coming back to decap node when nobody's looking.

Meanwhile I have a thief dueling of node entire gaming, not doing what you said and if they aren't doing that, they are in a teamfight and we get outrotated because the other thief knows what to do

 

[Burnfall.9573]

10 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Kind of sad, being laughed at for pointing out that thief has been defining the meta for 10 years.

What's even sadder is, PvP had many chances to attract an audience who only wanted to be given a fair chance of competitive play but to be constantly reminded that, this game is not for them.

So they leave and go elsewhere where there needs are taken care of.....even if the combat system is lacking.

Edited May 20 by Burnfall.9573

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Kind of sad, being laughed at for pointing out that thief has been defining the meta for 10 years.

You can't balance out getting jumped 2v1 without creating a bunker meta, that should have been obvious.

Pick your 💀🍾 Thieves play Decap +1, and they've been doing that since the get-go because any time they didn't do that the same people that don't like thief now complained then. Why do you think there's no specters? 

Some people think the game will be perfect if they could just find the magic formula to stop themselves from being 2v1ed when they don't even look at the map, it'll never happen, it's over 💀

Edited May 20 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:40 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

remember thief is always the worst class who can never win anything but they're all actually just infinitely more skilled than us mere mortals

Its more like thief is constantly getting its goalposts shifted depending on whatever people are more annoyed by, they adapt to the new goalpost and then people decide the goal is on the other side of the field balance wise, actually. too stealthy? nerf that, give em more mobility actually. Oh you don't like that? Less mobility then; nerf acro and shortbow. Oh, they're still cooking you with pistol whip? kitten guess let's nerf that then. Still too stealthy? Lets take -all- the stealth duration out of shadow arts. They're cooking you on specter now? wild, maybe we should make shadow shroud a useless mechanic to stop that. What, it's pistol pistol standing in a smokescreen now? Let's make that cd prohibitively expensive.

kitten it's been like 5 years I guess we can make acro line do something n- what do you MEAN Sword Dagger is cooking people?!

I'll play that game, sure; but at least be honest that it's an exercise in petulance, a whack a mole game where people never actually hit the mole because what they actually want is for the mole to not be in the game at all. See yall next balance patch or whatever lmao 💀

Edited May 20 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Yerlock.4678]

On 5/14/2024 at 11:42 AM, Kyraios.8954 said:

Title says it all. 

Constant blinks, stealth, insane damage, mobility, blinds, condis. Why do they need all of this? They don't even have the lowest health pool in the game. The class in general is just broken. 

There is no counterplay to a good thief. 

A top player thief * Less skilled thieves usually are manageable 

[Yerlock.4678]

On 5/14/2024 at 11:42 AM, Kyraios.8954 said:

Title says it all. 

Constant blinks, stealth, insane damage, mobility, blinds, condis. Why do they need all of this? They don't even have the lowest health pool in the game. The class in general is just broken. 

There is no counterplay to a good thief. 

A top player thief *