[THIEF] Spear Skills

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Thanks to Asur.9178

Edited June 23 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Asur.9178]

Your link is broken. Here's my compilation (which includes the DE version as well).

Below are my primary thoughts and concerns based on the stream:

Deadeye will more than likely still pull ahead of the other specs; especially for a condi build because malice only provides a condi benefit (torment stacks) and because Deadeye allows for constant stealth access without having to rely on the rather weak stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault). You can simply use the chains to build up malice stacks and then use stolen skills for stealth. Tying in the initiative return on stealth skill instead of simply the finisher skills/Distracting Throw (following a finisher) is a bad decision imo for multiple reasons, including the fact that it benefits Deadeye the most (just look at axe - btw, axe bugs are still not addressed 🙄[different topic]).

It's silly how the skills are balanced; even the skill 3 lead attack applies additional condi (bleed) on enemies above 90% hp (90% is a joke btw 😒- should be at minimum 50% and maximum 75%) and does less power damage as well compared to skill 2 lead attack. Distracting Throw needs to do a lot more power damage so that in instanced PvE content you don't feel shafted on power builds compared to condi when using it as a lead skill. Additionally, more power damage would benefit the kit's low damage in PvP as it is the only skill with over 130 range (600 range btw - not even 900 🤣).

It's also silly that the only evasion in the weapon is baked into the skill 3 stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault) with the weapon having no real disengage (skill 5 is not an excuse for defensive choice because it's not a channeled block). Shattering Assault does not stealth you (based on what was shown) if you don't hit a target (like Cloak and Dagger) at 130 range (not even 240, like a lot of other "melee" skills [eg: Ranger's spear skill 2]). This means you don't have the freedom to stealth as easily (even if it grants stealth when you fail to hit with Shattering Assault) - will be very common in PvP considering the plethora of evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement skills 🙄. Considering the fact that according to them skill 3 chain is supposed to be utility, the lead attack should have evasion baked into it; it's a mobility skill (I assume based on how it functions - have to check interaction with Acrobatics) that is lost on impact; and they said it themselves on the Ranger section while explaining skill 4 that it feels better to have the evasion component on engage skills (so, it's not like they aren't aware of it). They seem to forget that thief is the squishiest class in the game (while having the lowest health pool) with basically no defense. It's why people feel the need to rely on stealth so heavily (which, imo, is a trash playstyle); because they hit like wet noodle and break like glass - they can only play cat and mouse constantly hitting and running unless they catch you with your pants down.

There's zero blind or defensive condis in the kit as well (except a 3s weakness in PvE on a follow up skill) 😒. Additionally, based on how they have other Thief skills balanced currently, I am 99.9% sure that the immobilize will be something like 1s or less in PvP, weakness will continue being 3s or less, and the daze will be 0.5s or less (maximum 1s). Damage will be lower across the board and so will the life steal and healing because that's how PvP is balanced compared to PvE.

These hybrid condi nonsense they try by attempting to make a single skill do both is just illogical 😑; it does not work because power always gets shafted doing that since power requires 3 stats (affected by armour as well), while condi only needs 2 (unaffected by armour btw). The only time this works is in cases like D/D, where 2, 4, and 5 are primarily power skills and 3 is a condi skill (4 being significantly worse for condi); however, the issue with this is that they individually become useless in specific builds. Weapons, especially 2 handers, should be built to do something specific: either power or condi.

Finally, it's crazy how the weapon kit doesn't provide a single boon nor a single combo finisher/field - zero interaction with other players or weapons 🤣. The least they could have done is given access to defensive boons (eg: prot, resistance, etc.) considering it's lacking in that department for PvP usage.

To summarize my thoughts; while it might be good in PvE against mostly stationary mobs (130 range on everything except 1 skill btw 🤣), I'd be lying if I said I wasn't highly skeptical about its performance in anything PvP. It lacks a ton of things you'd expect to see in a weapon which would make it good in PvP; including defensive options and raw damage output to offset the lack of defensive options. One of the main reasons S/D chain on skill 3 works in PvP is solely because it's unblockable (so you aren't giga punished for everything running around spamming evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement abilities) - spear chains are not unblockable (you also lose the chain the instant they fail - have fun with that; especially against any mesmer/guard).

PS:

Let's see if the beta changes my initial perception; but, at this point, I am doubtful and quite disappointed to see it not have as much potential as I hoped for in PvP 😒. I don't expect anything besides number tweaks (at best) at this point considering how they have reacted to feedback from previous Thief betas over the years; bugs regarding scepter and Specter (which I reported myself multiple times during their betas) still exist to this day - as do axe bugs.

Also, enjoy getting 1-shot by stealth spamming rangers; people thought DE was annoying...just wait.

Edited June 26 by Asur.9178
Added in defensive condi thoughts since I missed speaking about it in the initial response.

[Lightsbane.9012]

seems really complicated to be honest.  guess i'll have to try it though.

[bq pd.2148]

4 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

One of the main reasons S/D chain on skill 3 works in PvP is solely because it's unblockable (so you aren't giga punished for everything running around spamming evades, invulnerabilities, and blocks) - spear chains are not unblockable (you also lose the chain the instant they fail - have fun with that; especially against any mesmer/guard).

+ its an evade unlike spear skills which might (will) be interrupted often enough before reaching the finisher which might also break the chain.

there are a few things mechanically unanswered i think, the skills following a finisher for example does that mean they need to be the next skill after a finisher or just the next spear skill outside of AA?
because DE would just 2,2,2, stolen skill, 1 and a 4 while revealed, would they get the ini then from the stealth attack following a finisher if they use a stolen skill / utility in between? would that not put quick deadeye on similar damage as dps deadeye?

i also do not like that the skills 4/5 and stealth attack need to follow a finisher.
you will likely not use 4/5 after using the 3 finisher for using skill 4 not only costs you 2 ini + 4 missed from stealth attack but also reveals you losing your option for a much stronger hit, skill 5 surely gets 3 blocks and might sometimes be useful in pvp there but it effectively costs 4 additional ini for the 2 extra blocks which are not always going to happen.  edit: also those are PvE ini numbers, we might not even be able to affort the unreliable mess in PvP.
gaining ini from stealth attack after finisher is supposed to make the weapon useable by daredevil/spectre, but if they have to skip the 'big damage skill' to even access it for lack of other stealth options, i don't see the weapon getting balanced in a way that those 2 are viable as that would likely make deadeye overperform.

personally i would prefer if by default skill 4 and 5(if something is blocked) would advance the chain to the next step and the chains would not get broken on a missed hit (or rather advance regardless of hit) + the ini gain moved to a more accessible spot for daredevil/spectre so that they don't need to skip the 'big damage skill'.  otherwise i would think it will be another deadeye weapon for pve and won't see much use in competitive for being unreliable. but maybe the beta/release will prove me wrong on my assumptions, we shall see.

Edited June 23 by bq pd.2148

[hash.8462]

I'm seriously starting to get worried about the tooltips because they're becoming infinite walls of text... they already go out of screen in FullHD, I think we really need some option of miniaturization.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

I'm seriously starting to get worried about the tooltips because they're becoming infinite walls of text... they already go out of screen in FullHD, I think we really need some option of miniaturization.

Indeed, wiki commands are a necessity just to read the kitten thing

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

6 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

I'm seriously starting to get worried about the tooltips because they're becoming infinite walls of text... they already go out of screen in FullHD, I think we really need some option of miniaturization.

It's really weird because they already have a system for this with certain traits having tooltip pages. They could try to port that functionality over to skills as well.

[Antycypator.9874]

Barbed Spear working as a melee and ranged attack depending on how far your enemy is — is the coolest thing ever. I wish Barbed Spear had little more damage.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Well I can finally be a Spear Ronin... if they implemented the lead offhand and finisher sucks from Guild Wars 2 series on assassin on all skills on all weapons then I could see this renewing thieves

[Asra.8746]

19 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

To summarize my thoughts; while it might be good in PvE against mostly stationary mobs (130 range on everything except 1 skill btw 🤣), I'd be lying if I said I wasn't highly skeptical about its performance in anything PvP. It lacks a ton of things you'd expect to see in a weapon which would make it good in PvP; including defensive options and raw damage output to offset the lack of defensive options. One of the main reasons S/D chain on skill 3 works in PvP is solely because it's unblockable (so you aren't giga punished for everything running around spamming evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, and movement abilities) - spear chains are not unblockable (you also lose the chain the instant they fail - have fun with that; especially against any mesmer/guard).

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who saw its glaring flaws when it comes to the potential viability of the weapon in PvP.

Let's see if the beta changes my perception; but, I doubt it as well.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

21 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

Your link is broken. Here's my compilation (which includes the DE version as well).

Below are my primary thoughts and concerns based on the stream:

Deadeye will more than likely still pull ahead of the other specs; especially for a condi build because malice only provides a condi benefit (torment stacks) and because Deadeye allows for constant stealth access without having to rely on the rather weak stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault). You can simply use the chains to build up malice stacks and then use stolen skills for stealth. Tying in the initiative return on stealth skill instead of simply the finisher skills/Distracting Throw (following a finisher) is a bad decision imo for multiple reasons, including the fact that it benefits Deadeye the most (just look at axe - btw, axe bugs are still not addressed 🙄[different topic]).

It's silly how the skills are balanced; even the skill 3 lead attack applies additional condi (bleed) on enemies above 90% hp (90% is a joke btw 😒- should be at minimum 50% and maximum 75%) and does less power damage as well compared to skill 2 lead attack. Distracting Throw needs to do a lot more power damage so that in instanced PvE content you don't feel shafted on power builds compared to condi when using it as a lead skill. Additionally, more power damage would benefit the kit's low damage in PvP as it is the only skill with over 130 range (600 range btw - not even 900 🤣).

It's also silly that the only evasion in the weapon is baked into the skill 3 stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault) with the weapon having no real disengage (skill 5 is not an excuse for defensive choice because it's not a channeled block). Shattering Assault does not stealth you (based on what was shown) if you don't hit a target (like Cloak and Dagger) at 130 range (not even 240, like a lot of other "melee" skills [eg: Ranger's spear skill 2]). This means you don't have the freedom to stealth as easily (even if it grants stealth when you fail to hit with Shattering Assault) - will be very common in PvP considering the plethora of evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement skills 🙄. Considering the fact that according to them skill 3 chain is supposed to be utility, the lead attack should have evasion baked into it; it's a mobility skill (I assume based on how it functions - have to check interaction with Acrobatics) that is lost on impact; and they said it themselves on the Ranger section while explaining skill 4 that it feels better to have the evasion component on engage skills (so, it's not like they aren't aware of it). They seem to forget that thief is the squishiest class in the game (while having the lowest health pool) with basically no defense. It's why people feel the need to rely on stealth so heavily (which, imo, is a trash playstyle); because they hit like wet noodle and break like glass - they can only play cat and mouse constantly hitting and running unless they catch you with your pants down.

These hybrid condi nonsense they try by attempting to make a single skill do both is just illogical 😑; it does not work because power always gets shafted doing that since power requires 3 stats (affected by armour as well), while condi only needs 2 (unaffected by armour btw). The only time this works is in cases like D/D, where 2, 4, and 5 are primarily power skills and 3 is a condi skill (4 being significantly worse for condi); however, the issue with this is that they individually become useless in specific builds. Weapons, especially 2 handers, should be built to do something specific: either power or condi.

Finally, it's crazy how the weapon kit doesn't provide a single boon nor a single combo finisher/field - zero interaction with other players or weapons 🤣. The least they could have done is given access to defensive boons (eg: prot, resistance, etc.) considering it's lacking in that department for PvP usage.

To summarize my thoughts; while it might be good in PvE against mostly stationary mobs (130 range on everything except 1 skill btw 🤣), I'd be lying if I said I wasn't highly skeptical about its performance in anything PvP. It lacks a ton of things you'd expect to see in a weapon which would make it good in PvP; including defensive options and raw damage output to offset the lack of defensive options. One of the main reasons S/D chain on skill 3 works in PvP is solely because it's unblockable (so you aren't giga punished for everything running around spamming evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement abilities) - spear chains are not unblockable (you also lose the chain the instant they fail - have fun with that; especially against any mesmer/guard).

PS:

Let's see if the beta changes my initial perception; but, at this point, I am doubtful and quite disappointed to see it not have as much potential as I hoped for in PvP 😒. I don't expect anything besides number tweaks (at best) at this point considering how they have reacted to feedback from previous Thief betas over the years; bugs regarding scepter and Specter (which I reported myself multiple times during their betas) still exist to this day - as do axe bugs.

Also, enjoy getting 1-shot by stealth spamming rangers; people thought DE was annoying...just wait.

Well typed out. I really hope Arena Net reads this.

[BobbyT.7192]

I did some quick math, and came up with the coefficients for anyone that cares. It may not be exact, but I believe the numbers are fairly close.  It was really helpful that the devs swapped weapons during the presentation and that we got to see the what their power was. This was also assuming that the weapon damage for the spear matches it aquatic counterpart, which would be 1000. Just for those unaware, most 2 handed weapon are around 1100.

Stealth:  2.31 over 6 hits

1: 0.36

2: 0.96 / 1.54/ 2.16

3: 0.76/ 1.35/  1.63

4: 0.67

AGAIN, these are rough numbers, but they should be close enough.

In terms of the damage, most of it seems fine, except the auto attack. which is lower than the pistol auto, but strikes much faster in melee.

[MKJO.8970]

I wonder if Arenanet will adapt the Acrobatics traitline for Thief. I really want to play the spear on daredevil, but I fear missing out on damage if I were to swap out Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes.. Acrobatics just feels mandatory due to the +120 spear power increase. The traitline further holds initiative generation which is very promising as well! Not forcing us to go into stealth constantly - which would suck due to the animation lock which further keeps you from moving out AOE's, such as oils on Deimos.

Edited June 24 by MKJO.8970

[Zacchary.6183]

On 6/22/2024 at 7:46 PM, Asur.9178 said:

Your link is broken. Here's my compilation (which includes the DE version as well).

Below are my primary thoughts and concerns based on the stream:

Deadeye will more than likely still pull ahead of the other specs; especially for a condi build because malice only provides a condi benefit (torment stacks) and because Deadeye allows for constant stealth access without having to rely on the rather weak stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault). You can simply use the chains to build up malice stacks and then use stolen skills for stealth. Tying in the initiative return on stealth skill instead of simply the finisher skills/Distracting Throw (following a finisher) is a bad decision imo for multiple reasons, including the fact that it benefits Deadeye the most (just look at axe - btw, axe bugs are still not addressed 🙄[different topic]).

It's silly how the skills are balanced; even the skill 3 lead attack applies additional condi (bleed) on enemies above 90% hp (90% is a joke btw 😒- should be at minimum 50% and maximum 75%) and does less power damage as well compared to skill 2 lead attack. Distracting Throw needs to do a lot more power damage so that in instanced PvE content you don't feel shafted on power builds compared to condi when using it as a lead skill. Additionally, more power damage would benefit the kit's low damage in PvP as it is the only skill with over 130 range (600 range btw - not even 900 🤣).

It's also silly that the only evasion in the weapon is baked into the skill 3 stealth finisher skill (Shattering Assault) with the weapon having no real disengage (skill 5 is not an excuse for defensive choice because it's not a channeled block). Shattering Assault does not stealth you (based on what was shown) if you don't hit a target (like Cloak and Dagger) at 130 range (not even 240, like a lot of other "melee" skills [eg: Ranger's spear skill 2]). This means you don't have the freedom to stealth as easily (even if it grants stealth when you fail to hit with Shattering Assault) - will be very common in PvP considering the plethora of evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement skills 🙄. Considering the fact that according to them skill 3 chain is supposed to be utility, the lead attack should have evasion baked into it; it's a mobility skill (I assume based on how it functions - have to check interaction with Acrobatics) that is lost on impact; and they said it themselves on the Ranger section while explaining skill 4 that it feels better to have the evasion component on engage skills (so, it's not like they aren't aware of it). They seem to forget that thief is the squishiest class in the game (while having the lowest health pool) with basically no defense. It's why people feel the need to rely on stealth so heavily (which, imo, is a trash playstyle); because they hit like wet noodle and break like glass - they can only play cat and mouse constantly hitting and running unless they catch you with your pants down.

These hybrid condi nonsense they try by attempting to make a single skill do both is just illogical 😑; it does not work because power always gets shafted doing that since power requires 3 stats (affected by armour as well), while condi only needs 2 (unaffected by armour btw). The only time this works is in cases like D/D, where 2, 4, and 5 are primarily power skills and 3 is a condi skill (4 being significantly worse for condi); however, the issue with this is that they individually become useless in specific builds. Weapons, especially 2 handers, should be built to do something specific: either power or condi.

Finally, it's crazy how the weapon kit doesn't provide a single boon nor a single combo finisher/field - zero interaction with other players or weapons 🤣. The least they could have done is given access to defensive boons (eg: prot, resistance, etc.) considering it's lacking in that department for PvP usage.

To summarize my thoughts; while it might be good in PvE against mostly stationary mobs (130 range on everything except 1 skill btw 🤣), I'd be lying if I said I wasn't highly skeptical about its performance in anything PvP. It lacks a ton of things you'd expect to see in a weapon which would make it good in PvP; including defensive options and raw damage output to offset the lack of defensive options. One of the main reasons S/D chain on skill 3 works in PvP is solely because it's unblockable (so you aren't giga punished for everything running around spamming evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, blind spams, ccs, and movement abilities) - spear chains are not unblockable (you also lose the chain the instant they fail - have fun with that; especially against any mesmer/guard).

PS:

Let's see if the beta changes my initial perception; but, at this point, I am doubtful and quite disappointed to see it not have as much potential as I hoped for in PvP 😒. I don't expect anything besides number tweaks (at best) at this point considering how they have reacted to feedback from previous Thief betas over the years; bugs regarding scepter and Specter (which I reported myself multiple times during their betas) still exist to this day - as do axe bugs.

Also, enjoy getting 1-shot by stealth spamming rangers; people thought DE was annoying...just wait.

The way its designed seems like they're experimenting with mechanics. That, I feel, is both a good and bad thing to do. Things like the auto attack switching from melee to ranged depending on your target's distance is a feature that could work well to counter reflect. But then it becomes an issue when too many conditionals come into play and most of them do not interact with each other, restricting playstyle for the sake of optimization. As of now, looking at the skills you posted there is little incentive to do anything other than spam a single button to get the maximum effect, or very specific chains for max damage.

I also see a major problem with them loading damage onto finishers, at least in pvp/wvw. At minimum, it should be even throughout or slightly more loaded onto the Lead Attack so the chain can have some impact without requiring landing multiple hits on a dodging/moving target. It would also help if Follow Up and Finisher attacks got a bonus if the other prior attack was used rather than rely on applied conditions. Just my two cents.

Edited June 24 by Zacchary.6183

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

The thing is,  right,  is looking at staff I feel it's almost invalidating staff considering it's basically a Spear without the blade point/tip. If we choose staff, we get higher damage values and tbh the skills points towards power builds.  If the route they stick to is what is in Spear currently they're going to HAVE to give tradeoffs yo appeal to specific build types. 

We get reflects in staff but only blocks on Spear along with initiative management and refunds on spear... both have cc but with Spear it's conditional vs on demand "bonk" on staff.

I've like the old gw1 lead, offhand, finisher mechanics implemented to Spear but if they,  arenanet, go this route it TRULY begs overhauls on ALL Thief weapons to use the same feature, which also leaves the same implementation to work itself into the traits for traits and even skill reworks.

 

I'd like falling spider to do an additional effect to float an enemy the skill hits then allow them to be smashed behind us, like a cc forced reposition. Impale, lift then slam behind us. This should give some similarity to staff cc bonk but a little flair

Edited June 24 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

24 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

The way its designed seems like they're experimenting with mechanics. That, I feel, is both a good and bad thing to do. Things like the auto attack switching from melee to ranged depending on your target's distance is a feature that could work well to counter reflect. But then it becomes an issue when too many conditionals come into play and most of them do not interact with each other, restricting playstyle for the sake of optimization. As of now, looking at the skills you posted there is little incentive to do anything other than spam a single button to get the maximum effect, or very specific chains for max damage.

I also see a major problem with them loading damage onto finishers, at least in pvp/wvw. At minimum, it should be even throughout or slightly more loaded onto the Lead Attack so the chain can have some impact without requiring landing multiple hits on a dodging/moving target. It would also help if Follow Up and Finisher attacks got a bonus if the other prior attack was used rather than rely on applied conditions. Just my two cents.

Also in gw1 the attacks like palm strike and even some hexes allowed to follow attack types. Some attacks didn't require a lead and could allow quicker chains. 

 

 Horns of The Ox, would for example,  be able to lead into falling spider follow palm strike while palm strike was an offhand attack not requiring a weapon.  I see the implementation from gw1 allowing skill and trait adjustments amd honestly I feel it's what thief needs

[Doggie.3184]

Still wondering why they even bring up Specter at all when they talked about it. The Spec is still designed to only be able to use Scepter.

For now I'm just glad there seems to be no move-locking or forced movement in annoying ways while attacking. Not sure about if the stealth attack locks though.

The hybrid range/melee they put on the auto attack is cool where you're ranged at distance and melee up close like a Gauntlet game~ and it's cool because I literally suggested them to do that with Axe. I still feel like Thief didn't get a new weapon at all in SOTO because of how unfun and abnoxiously loud the axe is. They have a lot to make up for.

Edited June 24 by Doggie.3184

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/25/2024 at 6:27 AM, Doggie.3184 said:

Still wondering why they even bring up Specter at all when they talked about it. The Spec is still designed to only be able to use Scepter.

For now I'm just glad there seems to be no move-locking or forced movement in annoying ways while attacking. Not sure about if the stealth attack locks though.

The hybrid range/melee they put on the auto attack is cool where you're ranged at distance and melee up close like a Gauntlet game~ and it's cool because I literally suggested them to do that with Axe. I still feel like Thief didn't get a new weapon at all in SOTO because of how unfun and abnoxiously loud the axe is. They have a lot to make up for.

The alac trait competes with the increased torment damage trait, so if you're running an alacdps-style build - which is probably the better approach to take in open world in general as well - spectre can work fairly well with a melee condiset like dual daggers (although sc/d is probably still the better ranged option).

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:19 AM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Barbed Spear working as a melee and ranged attack depending on how far your enemy is — is the coolest thing ever. I wish Barbed Spear had little more damage.

That's ranger underwater Spear no?

[Bunny.9834]

Spear is CLUNKY.  

This mechanic would've been nice if the casting times are faster. 

It's annoying trying to land these combos without quickness. 

The rest of the kit feels so weak compared to the Ranger and Mesmer, who has similar feel in terms of being a Duelist Type Weapon. 

Edited Thursday at 06:42 PM by Bunny.9834

[MKJO.8970]

I HATE THAT DEADEYE KEEPS BEEING ON THE TOP - BUT I LOVE THE SPEAR.

First, the good: I was able to do mad damage with condi spear on Deadeye but only mediocre damage on Daredevil and Specter. The spear feels REALLY good to play with, the whole fantasy is awesome, and the rotation is refreshing since I am forced to do something else than just spamming one button. Condi damage feels good on the spear, and it would be my go to weapon moving onward for condi encounters. I see it as a good thing that your initiative is punished if you are unable to land your combos. BUT THE BIGGEST WINNER, the stealth on skill 4 does not require you to hit the target? It sure felt that way, and I love it! It is not as scuffed as on Dagger 5 - thanks!

Second, the bads: And oh boy, do I fear to get disappointed. The fact that power-based spear is this weak screams danger to me. All specializations for thieves do have valid and fun condi weapons. Deadeye beeing the most rescent with axe, Daredevil having D/D which synergized perfectly with the dodge spams and Specter having Scepter. Specters do not have power traitlines, and the power spear falls off badly - plus the shroud feels weird in combination with spear... Deadeyes takes the price on dps once again on condi, it is so frustrating to watch. I play power deadeye for everything in this game, and I really wanted to get some variation... Some gameplay that does not force me to cantrip stealth constantly... It is good for rifle and axe, but for spear (WHICH IS FAST PASED) it is just kitten... Power daredevil rotation feels amazing, but the damage is lackluster. I reached 40k/s on condi deadeye on my second attempts but only 25'ish on power daredevil. The auto is too fast paced and looks weird..

ARENANET, you cannot be serious?! Are you going to force thief mains to stay on deadeye and when we want the daredevil fantasy we are forced to play staff-spam-2.. Unrewarding and no fun. And if you are going to force us into more deadeye weapons, please fix the bloody malice bugs for starters. UI bugs out and there are encounters (e.g. end boss Amnytas) which cannot be deadeye marked. This spear needs proper power damage for instanced PVE. I will literally have to leave the game in frustration if Deadeye condi spear takes the price. It was fine on axe, but adding this on top? I really believe that the weapon should have been Power OR Condi... Being a hybrid weapon almost certainly = condi always wins.

Edited Friday at 05:27 AM by MKJO.8970

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I tried the spear only in OW against vets, elites, pack of mobs, and ...
Braindead Berserker Deadeye/trickery/kitten BQBK  : I put skill #3 on auto, and only use #1 (stealth Attack) when my character stops, I don't even need WASD.
Low iniative cost (totally canceled by SA and mark), dash + life steal + stealth + boonstrip ...  It's like Pew/Pew Unload, but melee.

Guys are you sure this is a condi weapon  ? 🤔

Then I tried condi, or Daredevil, and gods ... it's hard... #2 eat so much iniatives, longer cast, no boon (not really spear's fault) ...
It would greatly help diversity (OW mainly speaking, but still) if #4 granted Might/fury/quickness instead of the +10% damage, for example.
Condi Deadeye is okai I guess, not sure it competes with axe, but I had so much fun with berserker gear. Should try against stronger mobs.

edited* : Condi is great too, just less "braindead" and need better rotation (like 222> (4)223> SA etc). Yet SA often vanish I don't get why, a bit frustrating.
Still, in solo content Deadeye > everything and the power part of Spear is quite strong enough for most content. Did some WvW I was running faster than Warclaw by spamming #3, and overall  #3 has so much utility for low initiative.

Edited Saturday at 11:54 AM by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Zacchary.6183]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:25 AM, MKJO.8970 said:

I HATE THAT DEADEYE KEEPS BEEING ON THE TOP

Until the ini regen levels of daredevil and specter are put on par with deadeye, this will keep happening.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Here's a break down of what I found when using the Spear (PvE).

Pro:

• Both Lead attacks costs 3 init, so if the finisher is followed with Skill 4, it's a cheap Lead attack plus a damage buff.
• Skill 3 is a movement skill. Even though it is not technically a dodge/evade skill, it can be easily used to evade projectile by repositioning.
• Plague Doctor/Shaman seems to work well with Specter using the Spear.
• Vampiric Slash is bonkers -- too good. If Distracting Throw is used as Lead attack, +50% lifesteal plus the damage buff.
• Lead can be used to target 1 and use Follow-up to target 2 and Finisher to target 3.
• Mix and matching skills is allowed. For instance, target can be Dazed if Distracting Throw follows Skill 2 Lead and Skill 2 Follow-up. The target can literally be Dazed locked.
• This is the best costed skill set, even my Specter is not initiative starved.

Con:

• The 3/4 casting time needs to go away. For instance, Shattering Assault (Skill 3 Finisher) has 3/4s casting, but only 1/2s Evade -- huh? That 1/4s window allows for interrupt and I have been interrupted. It completely invalidates the payoff of completing the combo.
• Falling Spider (Skill 2 Finisher) states "nearby enemies" but this skill has no Radius.
• Skill 3 Lead states "leap" yet it's not a leap finisher.
• Vampiric Slash (Skill 3 Follow-up) states "foes" and "them" (plural), yet Number of Targets is 1. I think this should be 3 just like the other skills.
• Shadow Veil (Skill 5) is removed when another skill is used. So when used after a Finisher, it animation locks the Thief for 4s (instead of 2s) and it goes away when another skill is used. That's way too clunky and unreliable. Just make it a buff instead of animation lock -- I mean it's a "veil".

Other than that, it has potential, it just need to execute faster and more smoother.

[Doggie.3184]

21 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Until the ini regen levels of daredevil and specter are put on par with deadeye, this will keep happening.

I think each Elite Spec should have their own built in bonus ini-regen system.

Want more initiative on Deadeye? We just take M7 currently...

Want more ini on Daredevil? I feel like "Upper Hand" (ini from dodging) should've been built into it somewhere instead of putting it into Acrobatics. It makes more sense as a Daredevil trait. Could also just replace our pseudo-deleted "Pulmonary Impact" trait with it. I still believe Acrobatics should have been Quickness/Superspeed/Alacrity support focused but they'd need to change their "design philosophy" for base classes.

Want more ini for Specter? Honestly I feel like "Quick Pockets" (ini from weapon swap) shouldn't exist in Trickery at all and Specter should get a minor trait like it instead of "Rotweiler Venom" being there. Reward Specters for being able to stay in Shroud longer than 2 seconds without it being bursted away by giving them faster ini regen while in it... and non-condi Specter builds~ if to ever exist~ wouldn't have venoms forced onto them. Instead it'd be something that benefitted all builds.

Edited Monday at 02:12 AM by Doggie.3184