Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Revenant

[Angesombre.4630]

For me, there aren't enough alterations, I'd have preferred burn to torment for a bit of a change, even mesmer, which has confusion, has opted for other alterations. It's true that confusion has a condition that can be more annoying because you have to attack, but torment isn't the best alteration either. A little poison might have been good too, even a little bleeding for kalla for example.
Or an idea to make an alteration according to the legend would have been innovative, like adding bleeding and poison for kalla, burning for the alliance and torment and chill in larger quantities for herald and why not confusion for the revenant core.

Edited Friday at 07:09 AM by Angesombre.4630

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I feel like the importance of Skill 2 and Skill 5 should be swapped. 
Skill 5 should be landed to recharge Skill 2 and Skill 2 should be spammed for Abyssal Raze. 

I feel like if these two skills were swapped in terms of gameplay loop, it'll make Spear flow much, much better. The exchange here is Spear no longer being an AoE centric weapon but rather a weapon that primarily does single target damage but can gather and pull enemies together to reward the player with more Skill 2 casts. 

 

Higher power coëfficiënts still too, depending on game mode how much more obv.

Rev spear has too long cast times on skill 1,2,4,5,  these need each 0,5 sec cast time. Since spear abilties will be used little more then other weapons skills, it has to be smooth fast enough and not slow.

Because of this the spear skills need lower energy cost.

 

•Skill 5: Torment, poison and vulnerability conditions on skill 5. If 3 stacks max are reached, they gett applied like 3 torment, 3 poison and 3 vulnerability.

You gain stacks of abyss if a target is struck, max 1 stack and it stacks up to 3 max.

 

===> Less stacks needed/less spamming needed to get to max effect, more condi cover, smoother faster gameplay and less energy expensive + better hybrid condi damage. Poison condi/vulnerability can both power/condi make use off. And it would fill in some little bit more niche by adding higher poison condi stacks which we didn't had yet. I don't like confusion stacks because that is a less healthy condition rev doesn't need.

[PrivateWilson.7142]

I concur with a lot of the people here, namely that this weapon feels clunky and unpleasant to use. The focus on one skill being pumped up to the max is interesting, but that requires one or both of the following things to work:

• The ramp-up needs feel exciting
• The payoff needs to be worth the effort

Currently neither one of these is the case. The ramp-up to getting Abyssal Raze to a state where you want to use it isn't that great due to the slow nature of these abilities. Then, once you do have the thing stacked up there's no notable difference in what the skill actually does; it's the same visual, the same effect, the same slow animations with minimal payoff. All you get is some higher damage numbers.

I would remedy this whole situation with the following two changes:

• Make the skills that get you more Abyssal Raze more potent but give them longer cooldowns so that you're making more opportunity-cost decisions
• Make Abyssal Raze substantially more satisfying to use through having the effect get stronger not just in damage numbers but in AoE size, casting speed, target count and honestly, visual intensity. I want to know I'm at max stacks without having to look at my buff bar or keeping count in my head.

[Kheron.9062]

53 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

 

Higher power coëfficiënts still too, depending on game mode how much more obv.

Rev spear has too long cast times on skill 1,2,4,5,  these need each 0,5 sec cast time. Since spear abilties will be used little more then other weapons skills, it has to be smooth fast enough and not slow.

Because of this the spear skills need lower energy cost.

 

•Skill 5: Torment, poison and vulnerability conditions on skill 5. If 3 stacks max are reached, they gett applied like 3 torment, 3 poison and 3 vulnerability.

You gain stacks of abyss if a target is struck, max 1 stack and it stacks up to 3 max.

 

===> Less stacks needed/less spamming needed to get to max effect, more condi cover, smoother faster gameplay and less energy expensive + better hybrid condi damage. Poison condi/vulnerability can both power/condi make use off. And it would fill in some little bit more niche by adding higher poison condi stacks which we didn't had yet. I don't like confusion stacks because that is a less healthy condition rev doesn't need.

The higher power numbers would also be nice, in addition to everything else everyone is suggesting.

[arazoth.7290]

35 minutes ago, Kheron.9062 said:

The higher power numbers would also be nice, in addition to everything else everyone is suggesting.

Yea, because I tested it also on power build and I was like wtf is this bs 😂, even on pure glass canon traits no threat.

They can make this weapon hybrid working for power and condi the same time if they would do it right 😂. I really think if they would specific do as suggested it could be that and fill out some niche that other weapons don't have same time.

As long they listen to feedback here AND apply it, scepter should be also heavy reworked just as reminder...

[Gazrul.3086]

I'll just echo what the others have said. This weapon is way too slow and clunky to use, the damage is low and it's pretty comical that a condi-based weapon only inflicts a single condi. 

 

I tried the thief spear afterwards and it had a block, a gap-closer, stealth, bunch of different combos between the first three abilities, bunch of combo finishers, 3 really good condis on almost every skill and on top of it all a heal. Not to mention it also deals good damage. The difference between these two weapons make it feel like the rev weapon was just an afterthought, something hastily made at the last minute. 

 

I'm sorry, but the rev spear needs a complete overhaul, or serious buffs to make it competitive. Add more conditions to the abilities, or make it a pure power weapon and balance it accordingly. Make spear 5 give more stacks of torment and other condis per charge, or change the ability to more fit a power based weapon. Add some defensive utility to it like an evade or a teleport. And please make the abilities faster.  Anything would be better than what we have now. Please don't make it DoA like the sceptre. 

I'm sorry for the negative feedback, but there's just nothing redeemable about the revenant spear. It needs some serious work before the expansion launch. Back to the drawing board with this one. 

Edited Friday at 09:48 AM by Gazrul.3086

[Shagie.7612]

The most positive thing I can say is that you can about face all the attacks, which gives you a little better kiting ability which is extremely helpful for a 600 range weapon that has no real defensive capabilities and will rely on doing so to survive.

Now, Rev has very little superspeed access to do so like say, Scrapper or Holo, which is a very large part of how playing at that mid range maintaining spacing works, but y'know. You can do it.

[IgoroN.1479]

Есть одна критическая ошибка!
Когда я использую умением№5, набираю 5 стаков(Crushing Abyss) и меняю легенду, а не оружие, с этого момента триггер на срабатывание Abyssal Raze перестаёт работать.

Помогает только смена персонажа.

Edited Friday at 10:33 AM by IgoroN.1479

[willow.8209]

seems like a strong weapon for revenant. Has a very mage feeling, except for the physicality of the ranged attacks which seem a bit incongruent with the mage-like attack. However, I feel like I'll definitely use this new weapon with revenant. 

the 3 skill might be thematically better as a shadowstep. The dash just looks like I'm gliding on an invisible platform. Maybe it isn't finished, though. 

the particle effects are very strong (opaque) and while they're amazing, they'll definitely contribute a lot to the "there are so many effects I can't see what I'm fighting" problem some of us have. I already can hardly ever tell what I'm doing at LLA, I just hope that wild aim will sometimes hit something. 

Edit: like the others said I agree it's slow. Especially skill 1 is way too slow for an autoattack. You'll never hit me like that.

Edited Friday at 11:30 AM by willow.8209

[Lionwait.4815]

From a WvW perspective.

Too slow and too short and too much for too little.

 

Skill 1: increase speed and range.

Skill 2: increase range. Increase radius

Skill 3: Remove the evade aspect and make it have two charges. Or at least give it 900 range. Using this skill is a nightmare when trying to run away. Any mob or person running into the mines keep you in combat. The point of a mobility skill is to run to or away from the fights. Offensively I see this skill being useful if it didn't have such a long cooldown timer but defensively this skill at one charge that only goes 450 range is useless.

Skill 4 increase speed and range and damage. WTF Anet! Where did the damage go in WvW? The skill already has too long of a cooldown on top of an energy cost. Give me back my damage and get rid of the pull the most people will just run out of because of the small radius and time it takes to trigger the last impact.

Skill 5 increase speed and range and make stacks per use 2.5. Add another condi.

 

Edited Friday at 12:10 PM by Lionwait.4815
Adding in "From a WvW perspective"

[Tobias.4975]

47 minutes ago, willow.8209 said:

seems like a strong weapon for revenant. Has a very mage feeling, except for the physicality of the ranged attacks which seem a bit incongruent with the mage-like attack. However, I feel like I'll definitely use this new weapon with revenant. 

the 3 skill might be thematically better as a shadowstep. The dash just looks like I'm gliding on an invisible platform. Maybe it isn't finished, though. 

the particle effects are very strong (opaque) and while they're amazing, they'll definitely contribute a lot to the "there are so many effects I can't see what I'm fighting" problem some of us have. I already can hardly ever tell what I'm doing at LLA, I just hope that wild aim will sometimes hit something. 

Edit: like the others said I agree it's slow. Especially skill 1 is way too slow for an autoattack. You'll never hit me like that.

sorry, but why is it a strong weapon, all you can do on it, you can do way better on shortbow. Plus you got 900 range on shortbow.

But yea, it has a very good mage-feeling😁

Edited Friday at 11:41 AM by Tobias.4975

[phandaria.4891]

I have this issue that Abyssal Blitz sometimes produce 3 mines, sometimes 2 mines. Does anyone else have this issue?

[willow.8209]

10 minutes ago, Tobias.4975 said:

sorry, but why is it a strong weapon, all you can do on it, you can do better on shortbow. Plus you got 900 range on shortbow.

But yea, it has a very good mage-feeling😁

now that you asked me to think about it, I realize I'm comparing Renegade to Core. An elite spec is typically going to feel stronger. So it probably has nothing to do with spear. 

Edited Friday at 11:51 AM by willow.8209

[Yasai.3549]

repost

Edited Friday at 12:08 PM by Yasai.3549

[Yasai.3549]

5 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I don't think this would change much. Making the spear rely on a one button that requires building up over time and then maintaining that buff when it doesn't refresh itself just will not work. I mean mace alone is already still doing better DPS than the spear, and so is shortbow. The key placement isn't the problem, it's the slowness and the fact they built an entire core mechanic around this one button effect that has to land before we can get it.

I'm just assuming that Anet will do nothing to change the identity of Spear and giving them similar suggestions. We've given them tons of feedback for Scepter but they were ignored or discarded because they fundamentally changed what they want Scepter to be. 

I doubt any change that changes that THEY want Spear to be will be even considered. I mean hey, just me giving a shot here. If I had the chance to design Spear, it'll be very, very different. 

[zeyeti.8347]

is it me or does it really has poor condi apllication ? i mean aa does torment , that's ok , and we have torment on skill 2 and 5 in some extend , and for power damage , skill 4 seems only prohiminent , the rest is really crap tier damage in term of power.

I get the 5 mechanic where at 5 charge this skill has double damage and 5 torment application but switching weapon remove all charge for another free application , then when swithcing to spear again you have to rebuild the 5 stacks, i don't know , really don't like this mechanic , maybe remove 2-3 charge when you switch weapon to be right back at 5 charge when switching again

Actually i can't really see it replace neither mace/axe neither shortbow , AA of mace is faster and skill 3 does 4 torment without having to build stacks for a longer duration then shortbow is range and has seven shots who is way more efficient than all spear mechs ... but have to say animation wise it's gorgeous , the mine drop is especially funny , i wish those apply some torment too , but if you want to make a  good condi weapon for rev you better add some torment to skill 3 and 4 and and be more gentle with the 5 stacking mech or else this weapon is never gonna replace the current condi set for rev.

Maybe i am missing something i get that skill 5 also has lower cooldown more u use skills , but this skill only seems to be the main course of rev , the rest is super meh tier in term of damage....

[Malv.3065]

Weapon feels slow, clunky and heavy. Skills feels like they have no synergy between each other.

For me it complete file especially that spear is the one of theme of this expansion. Spear as weapon is fast, mobile and versatile and it would feel like it.

Maybe change curren mechanic to something like marking=> detonation marks to do dmg. Also if You wanna make it weapon with range/melee switch then make chang in what skill do not only animation.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, willow.8209 said:

now that you asked me to think about it, I realize I'm comparing Renegade to Core. An elite spec is typically going to feel stronger. So it probably has nothing to do with spear. 

Core rev is stronger then renegade in pvp any day 😅

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I'm just assuming that Anet will do nothing to change the identity of Spear and giving them similar suggestions. We've given them tons of feedback for Scepter but they were ignored or discarded because they fundamentally changed what they want Scepter to be. 

I doubt any change that changes that THEY want Spear to be will be even considered. I mean hey, just me giving a shot here. If I had the chance to design Spear, it'll be very, very different. 

Hence my statement in the other thread that they will dismiss all feedback and say "they are satisfied with how it turns out" and forget, them being satisfied with how something turns out is not who they are making the game for in the end. This will be two expansions in a row now if they try to pull this again where them being satisfied is a bad benchmark to go by when the people that actually play the class keeps saying the mechanics of the tools they made are not fun, not conducive, and certainly sub standard to not only what everything else does in the toolkit but every other class on the board.

Edited Friday at 02:00 PM by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 hours ago, phandaria.4891 said:

I have this issue that Abyssal Blitz sometimes produce 3 mines, sometimes 2 mines. Does anyone else have this issue?

I've had up to 4 mines. The tooltip says up to 5 but I have no idea why this power exists.

[eXistence.3876]

The attack speed on the auto chain is super slow and feels very bad. It takes all the fun out of the weapon, which I feel is a fun design.

[Catchyfx.5768]

FEELING

- OK, all above is true. At first glampse, you can feel how bad it feels to use this weapon.
- It is very slow, which I wouldn't have problem with, if it was "creation thru destruction" but it is just aiming simulator to build stack and then hit for 2torment with 5 sec duration, while maintaining energy, and trying to survive(if pvp). 
- Underwhelming and slow, it feels more like support weapon. But as I said in previous topic. CD, casttime, numbers, they can tweak those ez., no problem. 
- Problem is whole concept, this weapon is charging its stacks (5 for 5 sec) to do something like "Sevenshot" which is more reliable 🙂 . 
- It have 0 utility. Only decent skills are 3 and 4.
- I've tried all spears, and oh boy, they are interesting, Ranger and Thief have some depth, Engi Mesmer guard have "if you hit this, that will get better", Ele just ate whole budget, Necro have its boost thing and Warrior is simple, but it works really well that is my problem, rev spear have obstacle. Baseline of the 5 skill is like AA and fully charged is mediocre at best(seven shot is lot better/stronger and on 7sec CD 🙂 )
- Keeping Crushing Abyss up for 5 stacks is whole gameplay, you use everything to just dont drop it (even on golem!)

PURPOSE

- where to use this weapon? Its hard to use baseline. Have no ability for offense/defense/utility. I tried it power/condi. But it is very hard to use. 
- It lacks a lot, give it some purpose, add dmg power,condi IF..  or evade or heal..IF
- only where it works is golem in training grounds.
- Give the weapon some utility as have other classes. Every stack of Crushing Abyss adds something to skill 5 sound very good ! AoE increase, condi corrupt, cleanse, heal, if you hit.

CHANGES

- Aftercast for skill 5, get rid of it.
- Crushing Abyss adds some other buffs and last longer, or is esier to ramp it up.
- Range increase
- Casttime decrease
- More reliable ways how to charge up Abyssal Raze (for competetive modes, ppl dodge 😕 ), right now AAing is ultra slow(1% for 3/4 casttime and 3/4 fling time) and Abyssal Force is very easily dodgeable.
- Abyssal Blitz little bit further
 

CONCLUSION

- Decide what it have to be, how it benefit player for using it(rn it is only fashion).
- Make baseline Abyssal Raze better and realy realy scale with any other stack. Right now, you go 400IQ to pull with deamon pull to Abyssal bolt just to pull again and hit with Abyssal Raze which you can facetank, because it just doesnt do anything. Right now it takes 20 seconds on standing target to get to the full stacks :))))) 20SECONDS (THIS WAS DESIGNED FOR DIFERENT GAME)
- With all other classes, you can see the impact, and using spears feels fluid and you can rightaway imagine how it can work and benefit builds or create new one, with Rev one, i have no kitten idea what the heck is this and for? -> Fashion Wars

CONCLUSION for Rev mains

- from past we learned, they cannot redo the weapon from the ground up, so we will be staying with this. It will be nightmare to balance. As always it will be OP or unusable, because of mechanics. You are lazy at the start, you will be suffering at the end.

Lot of great ideas from you guys, hope one of you gets hired so rev is also covered for future 😄 
 

 

Edited Friday at 02:12 PM by Catchyfx.5768

[youuugene.1037]

Played this both in PvE and WvW, I agree with other sentiments here that every skills cast time is abysmally slow, and with 450/600 range it feels horrible as i dont see taking this over the shortbow in any instance. Everyone just walks out of your aoe abilities with just pressing the W key or mobs get run out of it switching targets or getting kited and due to the nature of 5 you lose at lot of dps just by missing a stack. The cost/cd needs adjustment considering how spammy this weapon can be as it doesnt allow enough time to 5 stacks while using utility/ult.

I understand why it needs to by hybrid as it kinda fills the gap in having a range power weapon/and just having another condition weapon other than axe/mace/shortbow but its short with having only torment as a condition.

1 Abyssal Strike - 3/4 to long for a 600 range weapon, it either needs to be brought in line with shortbow at range 900 with .5 sec cast time. Also the min range it turns to melee needs to be tuned a bit, trying to chase or kite, im to close but far enough that it turns melee but still misses the attack, and kiting that where i want to be range it just starts using melee attacks.

2 Abyssal Force - Lol its just Spear of Achemorus on a short cd and less damage. 6 sec cd is kind of long for a weapon to want to be able to keep stacks of 5 up to, it needs a shorter cd or an ammo system where we can hold at least 2 charges.

3 Abyssal Blitz - really great skill, just the range is an issue at 450, to use effectively  you already have to be in melee range. Whats the point of having max mines at 5, even with quickness its to costly to cast on cd. Its probably beta but Im hoping the charging animation is a place holder so something cooler. A dash in and out of the mist would be cool.

4 Abyssal Blot - Great CC with Chill and pull. Range needs to be increased to 900

5 Abyssal Raze - Great skill and stacking mechanic, but it feels like it leaves a lot to be desired especially as a bread and butter skill.  1.25 is very long, getting animation locked that long just feels bad esp at range 600.

Crushing Abyss(5s stack) - Only having increase in damage feels like its an afterthought, Maybe at 3 or 5 additional conditions would apply or unique interactions with other skills

[Angesombre.4630]

6 minutes ago, Catchyfx.5768 said:

- from past we learned, they cannot redo the weapon from the ground up, so we will be staying with this. It will be nightmare to balance. 

A few years ago, they upgraded the entire engineering rifle to make it more powerful and better.

I find the effect funny but it still makes me laugh. Why are the numbers of mines changing? And why are they so big and visible, I mean the marks, or the traps are less visible. You'd think they'd be more threatening because they'd come back and an opponent couldn't miss them unless they were really on him. In a "Hey, look, we put something on the ground, be careful" kind of way.

And I don't understand why the design includes a unique buff that amplifies spear attacks when you already have the power. You've already done almost the same thing with the intensive use of the F2 Vindicator. For the necro, it's a kind of life theft. 

The guardian with his spear provides healing, resolution, power, fury, damage removal and resistance. It inflicts blindness and weakness.

The engineer inflicts bleeding, vulnerability, burn, immobilization and correct damage.

The rodeur inflicts Cripple, immobilization and correct damage. He can have revelation, stealth and super speed.

The thief inflicts bleeding, poison, vulnerability, infirmity and daze. It can have health, remove buffs and futivity.

The elementalist has a little of everything and a range of 1200+ with good speed.

 

[arazoth.7290]

37 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I've had up to 4 mines. The tooltip says up to 5 but I have no idea why this power exists.

What I noticed, if you run forwards while pressing it without mobility increase, you get 4.

If you use it without moving, you get 3. 

Use it while moving forwards with mobility increase enough, you get 5.

 

I don't like this weird inconsistency 🥲