Homesteading isn't as easy & player friendly as they've claimed and has some flaws that should be fixed.

[Nebilim.5127]

Sometimes it feels they really didn't put any time looking where the materials come from and how much they cost. The frostfang material one is the worst one so far and there is literally no giant mushroom spores in the tp anymore.

[Logos.5603]

18 minutes ago, Roda.7468 said:

It's the evolution of Cool Math Games

It's the same kind of play as a kid playing house changing diapers, or playing store and counting money tokens.

It's gameplay like sudoku is gameplay

Spreadsheets are the evolution of Cool Math Games? Lol. Please!

It is one thing to find an activity enjoyable, it is quite another for it to be playful. Plus, not all enjoyable activities are games. Sudoku is a game that isn't playful. Crashing rocks by the river is playful, but not a game. Creating a spreadsheet is neither, but one might enjoy it.

"It's the same kind of play as a kid playing house changing diapers, or playing store and counting money tokens."

This is pretend play...a different kind of activity altogether (and quite different from "playing." In this case, the word "play" refers to acting, as in pretending to be a storeowner, etc.). When you make a spreadsheet you aren't pretending you are doing this. And, in any case, that is not the sense of "play" in question.

[Roda.7468]

Gotta figure out how to make a spreasheet out of this thread

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

Lol. Yea, that's because not all key pressing is gameplay and you've been bamboozled into thinking that it is. Not all contact with the game is gameplay. Not all interaction with the world is gameplay. Trading in the TP, for example, is not gameplay. Fetching materials is also not gameplay. Using the waypoints, accessing your bank, moving loot around, figuring out which gear to buy, going to a third party website to figure out what's "optimal," creating spread sheets, etc. It's busy work that you may do in order to play.

People call gameplay all kinds of activities that don't involve play when they interact with a game. That's were the confusion comes in. Developers, and Youtubers are both guilty of this confusion. See, for example, the whole terrible notion of a "gameplay loop."

Again with this assumption of "understandably." "Can't you see, noob, how OBVIOUS it is that MMO's need you to work in-game (i.e., grind) in order for you to have fun! It is a natural part of the game. It has always been like this! Therefore this is the best and only way!"

Yea, apart from being the norm, it is far from obvious that this needs to be this way. Explanations about the "necessity" of this always involves some naturalistic fallacy, or begging the question.

Devs have tricked players into thinking that this kind of mindless fetching is play. You even have them defending the practice.

"Work is play" (message sponsored by the Ministry of Truth).

It's as much "work" as literally anything else in the game, as also rightfully pointed out by other posters already on the example of decorating, which you in turn instantly dismissed because... well... only whatever you want to be "work" is one and whatever you consider to be "correct part of the game" is also that. Gathering materials is an understandable part of rpg gameplay and it's not "because it's work". The cost isn't high at all (as opposed to what that limited amount of people -including you- try claiming), you can easly acquire materials in variety of ways (as also was pointed out and is intentionally avoided by you every single time) and all of it is very much gameplay, even if you personally dislike it for whatever reason. But at this point it's becoming increasingly clear you understand that and that's exactly why you keep avoiding what I pointed out in that initial post, but instead latch onto a singular, completely disconnect from any context "I don't like gathering, so it's work, not gameplay!". Well, if you dislike gathering, go play the game, get gold however you want and buy materials from other players.
Since in reality you still didn't address any of the actual points made in my posts, I'll stop piling up more and instead send you back to re-read what I wrote and then hopefully you can finally answer to what you were quoting within the context of what my posts were responding to. Otherwise, it becomes too clear @Triptaminas.4789 was correct in his assesment of your posts:

16 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Begone with your lowkey gish gallop spam.

and frankly, people on this forum do this kitten too often already.

 

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

"It's the same kind of play as a kid playing house changing diapers, or playing store and counting money tokens."

This is pretend play...a different kind of activity altogether (and quite different from "playing." In this case, the word "play" refers to acting, as in pretending to be a storeowner, etc.).

Oh, right! Those mentioned things are simply "pretend playing", so it counts. It's completely different than playing... Role Playing Games where you... um... wait, what were you saying again? Ah right, it was making a claim that "pretend playing" isn't work, but also isn't "playing". 🤦‍♂️ 
You really talked yourself into the corner and now you're trying to go through the wall.

Edited August 26 by Sobx.1758

[Logos.5603]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's as much "work" as literally anything else in the game, as also rightfully pointed out by other posters already on the example of decorating, which you in turn instantly dismissed because... well... only whatever you want to be "work" is one and whatever you consider to be "correct part of the game" is also that. Gathering materials is an understandable part of rpg gameplay and it's not "because it's work". The cost isn't high at all (as opposed to what that limited amount of people -including you- try claiming), you can easly acquire materials in variety of ways (as also was pointed out and is intentionally avoided by you every single time) and all of it is very much gameplay, even if you personally dislike it for whatever reason. But at this point it's becoming increasingly clear you understand that and that's exactly why you keep avoiding what I pointed out in that initial post, but instead latch onto a singular, completely disconnect from any context "I don't like gathering, so it's work, not gameplay!". Well, if you dislike gathering, go play the game, get gold however you want and buy materials from other players.
Since in reality you still didn't address any of the actual points made in my posts, I'll stop piling up more and instead send you back to re-read what I wrote and then hopefully you can finally answer to what you were quoting within the context of what my posts were responding to. Otherwise, it becomes too clear @Triptaminas.4789 was correct in his assesment of your posts:

Oh, right! Those mentioned things are simply "pretend playing", so it counts. It's completely different than playing... Role Playing Games where you... um... wait, what were you saying again? Ah right, it was making a claim that "pretend playing" isn't work, but also isn't "playing". 🤦‍♂️ 
You really talked yourself into the corner and now you're trying to go through the wall.

Now this is an actual example of a gish gallop spam. There are like three different arguments being made here, though I doubt you realize that.

Yea, role playing is part of a game like GW, but it isn't part of its gameplay. In any case, the conversation isn't about this element of the game. The question is whether grinding is a form of gameplay. Providing an example of pretend play, like it was done, doesn't really address that point. Let me try this another way. The "play" in gameplay doesn't mean the same as "play" does in role play. In the case of role play, "play" means something more akin to acting out. The reason for your confusion is that you are confusing the meanings. You know that words can have altogether different meanings in different contexts, right?

Again with the unsubstantiated assumptions: (1) Why is it that gathering materials is an understandable part of RPG gameplay. This is not obvious. People keep repeating this as if it was a truism. (2) How is grinding a form of gameplay? This is yet another assumption dev have bamboozled people into believing. It is certainty an activity, but it is neither enjoyable, nor playful. It is also not a form of game.

Whether or not acquiring some materials is easy is also not the point. It's about those materials that aren't "easy" to acquire, and require unplayful activities.

Edited August 26 by Logos.5603

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Now this is an actual example of a gish gallop spam.

Nope, most of what I said is repeated and reexplained since my initial post, whch you repeatedly avoided addressing because you were busy pretending I somehow started and ended my post at "gathering is gameplay" and that's what you decided arguing against while avoiding the whole point of that post and what it was responding to.

23 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Yea, role playing is part of a game like GW, but it isn't part of its gameplay.

Yes, it is. And we're not talking about actual separate "roleplayers" type of players who intend to push it further. The game involves roleplaying and world building -and all of it, including gathering, is part of that gameplay. You personally disliking it doesn't change it in any way.

23 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Again with the unsubstantiated assumptions: (1) Why is it that gathering materials is an understandable part of RPG gameplay. This is not obvious. People keep repeating this as if it was a truism.

World building, immersion, understandable chain of events where you acquire materials and then use them for x purpose. If this was not obvious for you (it really should be though) then glad I could help you with that. People "repeating it as a truism" already explained it to you in more ways than you explained anything about your "I don't like it so it's work and not gameplay". Maybe it's time to start holding yourself to the same standard.

23 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

(2) How is grinding a form of gameplay? This is yet another assumption dev have bamboozled people into believing. It is certainty an activity, but it is neither enjoyable, nor playful. It is also not a form of game.

Now you're pusnig into "what is grinding?" category. You repeatedly pushing spacebar while playing mario isn't grinding, but you gathering resources in rpg is one because you said so. Once again: without change all you "have" in your posts is based on nothing more than "I don't like it, so it's automatically work/grind/not gameplay". But, again, not only it doesn't matter if you personally dislike it in the first place, but the majority of those materials are tradable so you don't have to gather a single tradable material by yourself.
Once again, that's very much part of the point I already spelled out in this thread and you keep avoiding it because -at least at this point- you know you're wrong. 🤷‍♂️ 

23 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Whether or not acquiring some materials is easy is also not the point. It's about those materials that aren't "easy" to acquire, and require unplayful activities.

Yeah, it's not the main point for your "this is work/game!" irrelevant  -and basically made up- nitpick, but someone tried claiming the cost is "insane" (which was also addressed in previous posts you quoted) and it was definitely part of the very complaint you made in your own thread about it. So it clearly is worth mentioned to clarify that those complaints are misguided whether you like it or not. Funnily enough, most of the complained about materials are easy to acuiqre and do require playful activities. Again, even if you personally dislike it. Even moreso, what was also repeatedly pointed out and avoided by you: most of those materials are tradable (including the ones you complained about), so you disliking the process of acquisition still has as much merit as it had before: none.

Edited August 26 by Sobx.1758

[Logos.5603]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, it is. And we're not talking about actual separate "roleplayers" type of players who intend to push it further. The game involves roleplaying and world building -and all of it, including gathering, is part of that gameplay. You personally disliking it doesn't change it in any way.

Translation: *Stumps feet really hard!* "Yes, it is!"
Well it isn't. It is part of the game, but it isn't part of the gameplay (at least, it hasn't been for a while). How good you are at roleplaying doesn't factor into the gaming aspect of the game. This is just normal. Role playing and gameplay are different things. This is different in a game like D&D, for example. Here the roleplaying is part of the gameplay.

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

World building, immersion, understandable chain of events where you acquire materials and then use them for x purpose. If this was not obvious for you (it really should be though) then glad I could help you with that. People "repeating it as a truism" (riiight) already explained it to you in more ways then you explained anything about your "I don't like it so it's work and not gameplay". Maybe it's time to start holding yourself to the same standard?

Translation: *Stumps feet even harder!* "It is obvious, because...look! It's obvious!" 

Yup, great argument.

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Now you're pusnig into "what is grinding" cathegory. You repeatedly pushing spacebar while playing mario isn't grinding, but you gathering resources in rpg is one because you said so. Once again: without change all you "have" in your posts is based on nothing more than "I don't like it, so it's automatically work/grind/not gameplay". But, again, not only it doesn't matter if you personally dislike it in the first place, but the majority of those materials are tradable so you don't have to gather a single tradable material by yourself.
Once again, that's very much part of the point I already spelled out in this thread and you keep avoiding it because -at least at this point- you know you're wrong. 🤷‍♂️ 

Well, this actually requires a discussion on the difference between playing and gaming (which I've been hinting at for a while now). There is a lot that can be said here. Here is a very condensed version. There is a lot of gaming in video games. Many are a test of skill after all. Mario is an example of a game that doesn't really involve play. It's more like sudoku, in that way. Strictly speaking there isn't any gameplay in Mario because there isn't any play when you are gaming. It is quite the simple game, actually. Tetris is another example of a game without play. Gaming in these games isn't grinding since you are engaged in a test of skills. The same way that strategically moving a piece in chess isn't grinding. 

I'll add this "extreme" claim. Tetris has no gameplay, and neither do the older Mario games because they lack play.

Complex games like GW involve gaming elements, and playing elements. Decorations, fashion, etc., involve play. In these cases you are open to experimentation, you aren't worrying about competence, you aren't taking rules as sacred (there are no rules), and it is about finding delight. Defeating an enemy, finishing a race quickly, etc., are examples of gaming. Now, grinding is neither of these things.

The fact that you think this has to do with personal preferences means you aren't really getting what I saying. It is a matter of what kind of thing a thing it is.

22 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, it's not the main point for your "this is work/game!" irrelevant  -and basically made up- nitpick, but someone tried claiming the cost is "insane" (which was also addressed in previous posts you quoted) and it was definitely part of the very complaint you made in your own thread about it. So it clearly is worth mentioned to clarify that those complaints are misguided whether you like it or not. Funnily enough, most of the complained about materials are easy to acuiqre and do require playful activities. Again, even if you personally dislike it. Even moreso, what was also repeatedly pointed out and avoided by you: most of those materials are tradable (including the ones you complained about), so you disliking the process of acquisition still has as much merit as it had before: none.

Again, acquiring items through grinding is not gameplay. Sure, some items are easy to acquire, but others require grinding, or do not require gameplay (using the TP). They require work. The complaint is that I paid for gameplay, not work.

[Sobx.1758]

haha, right. I'm done getting baited, keep "stumping feet" and claiming mario/tetris have no gameplay instead of addressing the words you're quoting.

21 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You really talked yourself into the corner and now you're trying to go through the wall.

Edited August 27 by Sobx.1758

[Triptaminas.4789]

7 hours ago, Nebilim.5127 said:

Sometimes it feels they really didn't put any time looking where the materials come from and how much they cost. The frostfang material one is the worst one so far and there is literally no giant mushroom spores in the tp anymore.

Look, basically, I'm just gonna do it (buy every spore from tp every time i remember about them).

UGH I know! I'm sorry!!!

It's just.... I'm gonna hoard them and never use them.

AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 10 stacks of spores in bank AHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Nebilim.5127]

32 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Look, basically, I'm just gonna do it (buy every spore from tp every time i remember about them).

UGH I know! I'm sorry!!!

It's just.... I'm gonna hoard them and never use them.

AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 10 stacks of spores in bank AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hope you telling the truth maybe anet will do something about this sooner. I wasn't planning on buying anyway unless it costed silvers. 

[Zeph.5927]

I just knew that as soon as Anet announced ingame housing, they would turn it into some sort of stupid grind, make it timegated, and/or make it expensive/prohibitive to do. And to the surprise of no one, they did exactly that. I didn't think I would end up messing with the homestead much to begin with, but I definitely won't be messing with it at all now.

Edited August 27 by Zeph.5927

[Minax.3284]

On 8/25/2024 at 7:09 AM, Minax.3284 said:

I'm a huge fan of housing systems in MMOs all the way back since Ultima Online to the more recent Wildstar and ESO. I've loved them all.

I was beyond ecstatic when they revealed the Homestead for GW2 and I think the base premise is great, but man, the costs for even the simplest of items is insane. It takes 300 hard wood to convert into enough of the housing materal wood to make a simple chair! Are you kidding me? 6 gold to buy a shipment of housing mats! And on top of that, all the material conversions and shipments are on a weekly lockout?! These numbers are WAY out of tune with the casual nature of this game feature, and I certainly didn't expect to see this kind of inhibiting grind attached to this system. 

In a game where we already hoard materials for crafting legendaries (and, to a lesser extent nowadays, ascended), it feels real bad having to exchange whole stacks of materials to be able to craft a few simple decorations. Never before in this game have I felt so bad for using my materials on something "fun" instead of something "useful". 

I have to come back to my earlier post after having realised that each of the upgrades for wood, ore and plants HALVES the price each time. So now instead of having to trade 20 Green Wood for Homestead Wood, you only trade 5, for example. 

After the initial small investment for these upgrades for each material type, the conversion is A LOT more reasonable and I'm quite happy!

[Nemain.5073]

I am 99.9% certain the Beeswax for the Chandelier was an oversight by whoever made that recipe and will be fixed in a future patch. Until then: You can ask around of any friend on the same server (EU/NA) might have that collection active and can craft it for you.

[Triptaminas.4789]

10 hours ago, Nebilim.5127 said:

Hope you telling the truth maybe anet will do something about this sooner. I wasn't planning on buying anyway unless it costed silvers. 

One minute ago I bought every single spore that Americans put in tp again, I gonna continue doing this, u can't stop me 

[kharmin.7683]

Seems like every time the player base asks (demands in some cases) something from Anet, and Anet finally implements it, it isn't what the player base wanted.  You'd almost think that the players would have figured this out by now.

[Zeph.5927]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Seems like every time the player base asks (demands in some cases) something from Anet, and Anet finally implements it, it isn't what the player base wanted.  You'd almost think that the players would have figured this out by now.

The problem is that Anet always finds a way to…..Anet-ify it. They take something that should be simple and straightforward and find a way to make it grindy, timegated, and/or expensive/prohibitive to do.

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hi all, I am reading through this thread and I do want to touch on one thing very quickly that I saw mentioned: The Lump of Beeswax that is required for the chandelier is not intended and we are shipping a hotfix for that today! After the hotfix is live this afternoon, the recipe will ask for lowland honeycombs. 

Now back to reading the rest of the thread--I'm noting down feedback throughout but wanted to pause and share that information. 🙂 

[Roda.7468]

Huzzah!
🎉🎉🎉

[Nemain.5073]

Collecting some suggestions and requests I've shared across some threads and platforms here;

- Ability to preview decos (ideally with a scale)
- Being able to cluster decos together (for example make a table the parent object and everything on it the children, so it can be moved as one unit)
- Undo button
- Option to keep the X-ray vision from the red menu active when swapping to the edit mode - some decos have complicated hitboxes that you can't select anymore when you place them in a wall / in eachother
- Option to (for example) press the arrow buttons on the keyboard to make pixel / mini adjustments in the edit menu instead of holding my breath and pulling the mouse 0.3mm, hoping it will be on that one step of distance I need

Different, less pressing wishes:
- Being able to place alt characters where we want and them staying there upon leaving the Homestead
- Alts being able to emote permanently (sit, sipcoffe, serve, talk, etc)
- Show Infusions on alt characters like it was promised on the Anet stream

Thank you so much for checking these feedbacks!

[ProfCarson.7124]

So far I haven't had any major problems with the cost of crafting decorations. The only thing I do have an issue with is the rarity of lumber cores and other guild hall specific materials. Maybe the drop rate could be increased a little, still giving them value but making it feel more farmable.

[Ashen.2907]

Going to have to agree with the request for an ability to preview decorations. I don't buy cosmetic infusions because I can't see how they look on my character and I won't bother with decorations in a system that expects me to buy them sight unseen. Honestly I am surprised that anyone would buy anything where the merchant was not willing to allow the purchaser to even see the product until after they had your money.

[Kasumi.8532]

Sooo, since the chandelier problem is getting dealt with, I'm just going to put down some feedback and ideas:

- Preview for decorations at the crafting station

- Option to keep things like torches on (currently you have to turn them on one by one again when you leave the homestead)

- Maybe a portalstone or something for easy alt character access

- More variety in looks of decorations. It's currently a bit barebones... The houses in Divinity's Reach have some great furniture. Stone / wood walls, floor, ceiling, couch, chairs, etc.

- Ability to put items in shelves that can be used (like bottles, my homestead basement is currently a small bar 😅)

- Different doors and windows

Some requests / ideas:

- Seasons (so the surroundings don't always look the same)

- Crafting Cherry blossom trees (I love those. Seitung already has them) and piles of the petals to put on the ground beneath them.

- Maybe some stuff to build a small pond? Smaller stones, getting water in there, etc. (And also ability to put some fish in there but I doubt that's possible)

- Different designs of the house. The current one is pretty big. I guess that would be something for the gemstore (different looks for the homestead).

- Ability to remove the wooden things at the homestead waypoint (I don't really know what to do with those...).

 

Edit: Oh and thanks for stopping by to clear up the chandelier thing. And reading the feedback.

Edited August 27 by Kasumi.8532

[Ashantara.8731]

26 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Going to have to agree with the request for an ability to preview decorations. I don't buy cosmetic infusions because I can't see how they look on my character and I won't bother with decorations in a system that expects me to buy them sight unseen. Honestly I am surprised that anyone would buy anything where the merchant was not willing to allow the purchaser to even see the product until after they had your money.

As with everything in GW2, you must rely on the Wiki: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoration#Decorations

Edited August 27 by Ashantara.8731

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

2 hours ago, Nemain.5073 said:

- Undo button

 

Tip for if you've moved a deco, not finalised the position yet, and want it back where it was. You can press escape and it snaps back to the last confirmed size/rotation/position it was in 🙂

[Roda.7468]

just made a couple of chandeliers 👍

They're in a good spot now (both in my homestead and cost wise lmao)

Edited August 27 by Roda.7468