SUGGESTION: "Cloned" weapons that would improve the utility of existing weapons

[Sifu.9745]

I have a proposal how to improve existing weapons by adding so called cloned weapons (or hologram weapons, ghost weapons ... Call them whatever you want) to the game.

There are already too many weapons in the game and too much everything revolves around weapon swapping from one weapon set to another, which certainly does not suit all players. Some would like to play with only one type of weapon, which would be improved accordingly.

The solution is offered in the addition of cloned weapons.

What do I mean by clone weapon? Here's the explanation:

A cloned weapon would be a copy of an existing weapon (set), but with an important difference. Let's say you are a Hammer Warrior. The Hammer is your weapon (set) 1, while weapon set 2 remains empty and is seemingly filled with a cloned weapon that is a visual (more shiny and translucent i guess) copy of the existing weapon, a Hammer in this case. A cloned hammer would have all the same skills as the original hammer, BUT no weapon skill would have a cooldown and you would lose autoattack (or maybe  not, I'm not sure about that)! You would be able to use Backbraeker, Staggering Blow etc. with no cd.  (or with a very short cd, lets say 2 seconds for every weapon skill, though i still prefer no cd at all).

Of course, the time you can use cloned weapons would be limited to a few seconds: maybe 7 seconds, maybe up to 10, i am not good at math:). During this time, you could spam/press #2, #3, #4 and #5 repeatedly (you would also get some improved F1. After seven seconds, you would be holding a regular weapon again, and about 15 seconds would pass before you could use the cloned weapon again. So instead of 9 sec weapon swap time a few more seconds should be added.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Clone weapon would be a new elite spec of course. Unique Sigils would be added for cloned weapons only. AND the cloned weapon will be "locked" for the first few seconds of entering combat  and will need to be "warmed up"at the beginning of the fight,. That means you will have to enter combat with a normal weapon and after about five seconds you will be able to weapon swap to the cloned weapon. Otherwise it would be to OP i guess.

Not sure yet how clone weapons would affect Elementalist and Engineer though ...

Sorry for English ...

Edited September 12 by Sifu.9745

[Dean Calaway.9718]

From all the things we don't need, we need this one the least.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

From all the things we don't need, we need this one the least.

I don't always agree with Dean, in fact we often disagree.

In this case I have to strongly agree.

If we are talking "cloned" weapons I'd much rather have additional inactive weapon set slots to more easily swap between active weapon sets similar to GW1. Now THAT would be nice to have and would mitigate some of the legendary weapon shortfalls (engineer and elementalist have something close to that already, 2 weapon sets where only 1 is active during combat. Just expand on this for all classes).

Edited September 12 by Cyninja.2954

[DanAlcedo.3281]

BACKBREAKER WITH NO CD?!?!?! 

"HEAVY BREATHING" 

LET'S GO MY WARRIOR BROS!!!! 

WE GONNA BONK FOREVER!!!!!! 

SOMEONE GIVE ME QUICKNESS AND THE BONK NEVER ENDS!! 

Edited September 12 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Dibit.6259]

A cool idea but sounds like a balancing nightmare for the devs who already struggle with existing weapons and skills.

[Sifu.9745]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

BACKBREAKER WITH NO CD?!?!?! 

Only for 7 seconds! After that time you will be returned to your "normal" Hammer for the next 15 of so seconds to compensate for superior burst dmg and/or cc. So for 15 seconds you will be forced to stay on only one weapon (hammer in this case) and than you can swap to your "alternative" or cloned Hammer for 7 seconds (it could be more or less). If too op, a 2 sec CD might be added to weapons skills #3, #4 and #5. Depends on class and weapon set.

This would be for those of us who doesn't like idea of equipping two different weapons. It looks weird when you can swap between Hammer and Greatsword. I like to play with one weapon (set) only, like i can play double staff Mirage for example, or Elementalist.

 

Anyway you guys really have no imaginations. You only see problems, not solutions. 😑 All these numbers can be increased or decreased as needed. Some things are added, others are taken away... This is just a basic idea that would need a lot of balancing and coordination ...

Cloned weapons might also have slightly different skills, for example less cc and more dmg/healing added for some OP-ed weapons.

Edited September 12 by Sifu.9745

[Omega.6801]

You never played a PvP mode, right?

[Dibit.6259]

58 minutes ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Anyway you guys really have no imaginations. You only see problems, not solutions. 😑 All these numbers can be increased or decreased as needed. Some things are added, others are taken away... This is just a basic idea that would need a lot of balancing and coordination ...

I wouldn't call it no imagination but being realistic  as to how they could possibly implement it into the game and what difficulties/problems could occur.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

That sounds like a balancing nightmare when Anet already struggles with balance. Competitive modes would become a bigger dumpster fire than they already are. This is more complexity the game doesn't need.
 

There are LI and other "easy" builds out there where you don't have to weapon swap, if weapon swapping really is just too much for you.

[Randulf.7614]

Putting aside the balancing nightmare that would have devs waking up screaming, the other issue is the level of complexity being added here.

GW2's nuances of combat and skills are hard enough to grasp for a lot of the playerbase. Adding this in just confuses the matter and adds an extra layer. And it does so without solving any problem the game currently has. I can see more potential to exploit skills for higher gain to imbalance the gap between elite/casual players even more

Kudos for originality, but I'm not seeing any benefit here

[DeanBB.4268]

7 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

... weapon swapping from one weapon set to another, which certainly does not suit all players. Some would like to play with only one type of weapon, which would be improved accordingly...

So, you don't want to swap weapons, then you propose an alternate way to weapon swap?

You know, you could just put hammers in both slots, maybe with different stats or sigils? Or simply not weapon swap, if you don't want to? It doesn't sound like you're doing anything competitive and (maybe) not too DPS intensive (ie, meta)?

[bq pd.2148]

i think the closest bit towards that idea that could be possible is:
weapon skill cooldowns per set.
so if you run hammer in both sets, their skills have seperate cooldowns like it was a different weapon.

for right now running double the same weapon you can trigger on swap effects (that you can also trigger with bundles/or anything that replaces your weapon skills for a bit), but you do not gain the benefit of another set of skills to put on cooldown right now.

[voltaicbore.8012]

Am I missing something? Isn't this just giving you a refresh (with warm-up and cooldown times) of your weapon skills? This looks like a needlessly complicated way just to ask for reduced CDs across the board.

EDIT: ah wait I guess the "tradeoff" you mentioned is giving up swapping to a different weapon in favor of having this 1/3 on, 2/3 off clone. Still seems unworkable thanks to engi and ele that don't have a swap to trade off.

Edited September 12 by voltaicbore.8012

[Sifu.9745]

40 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

So, you don't want to swap weapons, then you propose an alternate way to weapon swap?

You know, you could just put hammers in both slots, maybe with different stats or sigils? Or simply not weapon swap, if you don't want to? It doesn't sound like you're doing anything competitive and (maybe) not too DPS intensive (ie, meta)?

 

I don't have "technical" issues with swapping weapons. It's more about the fact that I come from a game like WOW, where you can only have one weapon or only one weapon set equipped. I'm used to it, and it suits me thematically and especially visually. The logic that you can swap between 2 different weapon sets does not convince me in any way and is disturbing for me in most cases. Unless it's a more realistic weapon swap, like swapping a Longbow for double daggers or sword and a focus, which would actually be possible in real life. But it would be very unconvincing to actually have two big weapons (2-handers): Greatsword and Hammer or Staff and Spear at the same time (i know it's just a game, but it's still a stupid or should i say a lazy mechanic). We should not be able to carry two two handed weapons.

 

That's why I prefer to play Elementalist because you have one weapon (set) in your hand. I don't mind having 4 different Attunements (in fact, it's even some of the most original thing in the game). Thief, Daredevil at least,  is also focused on one weapon set 90% of time. So it is possible. Condi double dagger Daredevil or power Staff Daredevil also very rarely swap to shortbow. I just want to see more of these kind of playstyle ...

Edited September 12 by Sifu.9745

[Sifu.9745]

1 hour ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

That sounds like a balancing nightmare when Anet already struggles with balance. Competitive modes would become a bigger dumpster fire than they already are. This is more complexity the game doesn't need.
 

There are LI and other "easy" builds out there where you don't have to weapon swap, if weapon swapping really is just too much for you.

It's not too much for me, i simply don't like having more than one weapon (set). 😁

[Sifu.9745]

17 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i think the closest bit towards that idea that could be possible is:
weapon skill cooldowns per set.
so if you run hammer in both sets, their skills have seperate cooldowns like it was a different weapon.

That would be fine too.👍

[Randulf.7614]

12 minutes ago, Sifu.9745 said:

It's not too much for me, i simply don't like having more than one weapon (set). 😁

You may not like it, but you have chosen to play a game that is built specifically around it. It is fundamental to the combat system that you switch around depending on range or combination or traits that rely on it. For example if my warrior is dropping faster than I can cope with, I switch to shield to work a block and extra breakbar damage into rotation until I can regain control.

Doing so is your choice and a handicap which is yours to bear, but goes against the way the game is set up. And it shouldn't be changed on that basis 

[starlinvf.1358]

17 minutes ago, Sifu.9745 said:

 

I don't have "technical" issues with swapping weapons. It's more about the fact that I come from a game like WOW, where you can only have one weapon or only one weapon set equipped. I'm used to it, and it suits me thematically and especially visually. The logic that you can swap between 2 different weapon sets does not convince me in any way and is disturbing for me in most cases. Unless it's a more realistic weapon swap, like swapping a Longbow for double daggers or sword and a focus, which would actually be possible in real life. But it would be very unconvincing to actually have both: Greatsword and Hammer or Staff and Spear at the same time (i know it's just a game, but it's still a stupid or should i say a lazy mechanic). We should not be able to carry two two handed weapons. 

That's why I prefer to play Elementalist because you have one weapon (set) in your hand. I don't mind having 4 different Attunements (in fact, it's even some of the most original thing in the game). Thief, Daredevil at least,  is also focused on one weapon set 90% of time. So it is possible. Condi double dagger Daredevil or power Staff Daredevil also very rarely swap to shortbow. I just want more of these kind of playstyle ...

So rather then learning how the game works, or exploring higher levels of play- you’d rather fundamentally break a major aspect of game balance for everyone, just to get around the fact you refuse to engage with a significant combat mechanic.  

You then cite realism after directly noting you come from WOW; the most unrealistic game to exist….  and I do not say that lightly given the high fantasy nature of MMORPGs.  

And thats on top of suggesting some so utterly unrealistic as unlimited spamming of power attacks for 7 seconds, followed by 15 seconds cooldown, with no other consequence. 

This is right out of an episode of Rougecraft.

PS Warlocks are mushroom  

 

[Sifu.9745]

42 minutes ago, starlinvf.1358 said:

So rather then learning how the game works, or exploring higher levels of play- you’d rather fundamentally break a major aspect of game balance for everyone, just to get around the fact you refuse to engage with a significant combat mechanic.  

You won't be forced to play the game that way. It would be just a new elite spec for those who like a different or lets say more "classical" game style. That's it. If you don't like it, you still have three other elite specs for each professions ... You are not forced to play Firebrand, right? You can freely play a core Guardian, Dragonhunter or Wilbender. 😉

And as i said: if Elementalist and some Thief specs can be played with one weapon set ... than i don't see any "Fundamentally break a major aspect of game balance for everyone".

Edited September 12 by Sifu.9745

[Danikat.8537]

If the problem you're trying to fix is that you don't like swapping between certain weapons why not just suggest that if you have the same weapon type in both slots swapping them resets your cooldowns? (Except the weapon swap cooldown of course.) That would achieve largely the same thing, but without the absurd balance issues that come from making any skill spammable.

All this extra stuff with removing cooldowns entirely for a duration sounds like either you're trying to turn all professions into thieves (who already have that as their profession mechanic) or the balance equivalent of when people ruin an otherwise valid content suggestion by ending with something absurd like "obviously this new boss should drop 3x as many rewards as a raid and everyone gets a free legendary the first time they fight it" which makes it sound like the idea itself was just a mask to try and make that look like a reasonable suggestion.

[starlinvf.1358]

22 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If the problem you're trying to fix is that you don't like swapping between certain weapons why not just suggest that if you have the same weapon type in both slots swapping them resets your cooldowns? (Except the weapon swap cooldown of course.) That would achieve largely the same thing, but without the absurd balance issues that come from making any skill spammable.

All this extra stuff with removing cooldowns entirely for a duration sounds like either you're trying to turn all professions into thieves (who already have that as their profession mechanic) or the balance equivalent of when people ruin an otherwise valid content suggestion by ending with something absurd like "obviously this new boss should drop 3x as many rewards as a raid and everyone gets a free legendary the first time they fight it" which makes it sound like the idea itself was just a mask to try and make that look like a reasonable suggestion.

Rouges have tough.  We have to use all our cooldowns to even stand a chance. The class is clearly broken from all the nerfs. /veryoldwowreference.gif

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:29 PM, Sifu.9745 said:

Anyway you guys really have no imaginations. You only see problems, not solutions. 😑 All these numbers can be increased or decreased as needed. Some things are added, others are taken away... This is just a basic idea that would need a lot of balancing and coordination ...

Cloned weapons might also have slightly different skills, for example less cc and more dmg/healing added for some OP-ed weapons.

You want solutions? Here's one: only equip one hammer. Period. Weapon swapping is a choice. You don't have to do it.

Also, putting different sigils in your "holographic hammer" no longer makes it a clone. A clone looks the same way and functions the same way. If not it's a variation, not a clone.

[Sifu.9745]

4 hours ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

ou want solutions? Here's one: only equip one hammer. Period. Weapon swapping is a choice. You don't have to do it.

Also, putting different sigils in your "holographic hammer" no longer makes it a clone. A clone looks the same way and functions the same way. If not it's a variation, not a clone.

You can also just auto attack, you don't have to use any other skill, right? Well, i don't want it that simple ...

You obviously don't understand the point: If you use only one weapon then you lose a lot on dmg or healing or cc. Hammer Warrior without daggers or axes is not exactly the best choice. So your suggestion that you don't have to use anything other than a single weapon (set) is a very misleading and cheap solution. Only Elementalist and to some extent Thief or Engineer without Engineering kit can afford this at the moment.

The problem is not even the weapon swaping, which for me is not difficult at all, as I have already mentioned several times, but the problem is that I want to play the role of, for example, a Guardian with a two-handed sword (so that we don't talk all the time about the Hammer Warrior, which I actually don't even like it that much and just put it as an example). And I want to play this role optimally, but I can't, because a single weapon or a single weapon set is not sufficient to play such a role optimally. So I still have to weapon swap to secondary weapon (set).

Therefore the idea of a cloned weapon (or whatever you want to call it), which of course would not be a perfect copy of an existing weapon, but would have unique properties, such as no CDs on weapon skill or a very short CDs and a limited time (lets say 7 seconds ), in which I could do burst dmg or healing or cc or buffing. At the same time, I would also add unique Sigils that would, for example, give you 15% dmg reduction for 7 seconds or maybe 15% dmg/healing buff for the duration etc.. In this way an additional challenge and skill would be introduced or added to the game that would not be there if you just equipped a single weapon or two of the same weapon. You'll need to know exactly when you can swap to cloned weapon. If you miss the right moment, you will be punished.

So, having a "cloned" weapon wouldn't make your playstyle easier at all, but would instead define your role more clearly: "I am a Staff  Druid". "And I am double Axe Berserker".  And you will finally be able to play the role of a character with a single weapon (set) ... IF you wnt to. You don't have to 😁

Edited September 13 by Sifu.9745

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

Except you're not playing the role of a character with a single weapon. At the very least it's a mock version of single weapon. But truthfully you're still playing with 2 weapon sets. You're just adding different conditions to the second weapon. It just made me think of dps rotations when you described how it would work in your last post. If you don't want easy, optimizing those rotations would be enough of a challenge for most. And when it comes to clearly defined roles, every role that's needed in the game already has several options to choose from. All the reasons you mention in favor of this system you've come up with are already available in the game. To be honest, this sounds more like an elaborate attempt to argue against having to equip 2 weapons because 1 weapon only is cheaper, than an idea for something that adds something new and exciting to the game.

Also, please don't give ANet more factors to contend with when trying to balance this game. It's already complicated enough as it is.