Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Indecision.4513]

You’re so far behind it’s cute. Nothing „bleeds” into fractals. There were lfgs asking for meta comps since dungeons. It’s jusrmt that people who liked running dungeons and fractals started raiding once those came out. I do all of these as I love instanced content.

I actually didn’t care much about the group in fractals until a few days of horrible pugs made me quit fractals for a month. Now I’m running meta comps like „before” (nothing new here). And it takes max. 30 min to do your dailies.

Join whatever you like. It’s a free world :)

[Linken.6345]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

If another healer brings offensive buffs on top of heals you'll always want that.

@Vulf.3098 [citation needed]

Maybe you should read the post Faaris.8013 was quoting hint it was list of all the classes that can heal but was missing guardians heal spec.

I didn't miss a thing, I am just stating why druid will be always favored regardless of how many heal specs we got. Isn't that obvious?

That is true.But obviously you did miss the point entierly the post you replied to wasent about what healer is favored in groups.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:Where's the frost spirit and glyph of empowerment in Firebrand though?, that's a (non-100% uptime) 20% power damage boost

How does that make Firebrand less of a potential healer class?

If another healer brings offensive buffs on top of heals you'll always want that.

@Vulf.3098 [citation needed]

Maybe you should read the post Faaris.8013 was quoting hint it was list of all the classes that can heal but was missing guardians heal spec.

I didn't miss a thing, I am just stating why druid will be always favored regardless of how many heal specs we got. Isn't that obvious?

That is true.But obviously you did miss the point entierly the post you replied to wasent about what healer is favored in groups.

OP was talking about things a thief needs, a thief needs offensive buffs too. Isn't that also obvious?, you can follow the comment chain.

[Faaris.8013]

@Lunateric.3708 said:OP was talking about things a thief needs, a thief needs offensive buffs too. Isn't that also obvious?, you can follow the comment chain.

To clarify, in the sentence where I mention Firebrand, I was just adding it to the list of healers for completion. If you list all healing classes, Firebrand belongs on that list.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:You need 3 things that are really helpfull (2 at least) to have a good fractal T4 experience

1) Healing provided by

• Druid (we all know it)
• Tempest
• RenegadeYes there's not only druid that can heal ... actually ... tempest and renegade heals better but druids provides more things such as might and spirit buffes.

2) Might especially provided by

• Druid (recent "stupid" buff)
• Renegade (press 1 skill to perma 25 stacks with concentration .... low radius)
• Phallanx warrior but got nerfActually almost every class can gain a lot of might if they spec .... but most of the time it's selfish.

3) Quickness (but not really a must have even if it's really helpfull)

• Chronomancer
• Firebrand (can give a lot of aegis and blocks + some sustain and boons)TBH i don't know what other specs can give that much quickness ... if you have something else , be sure to make me notice !

My point is : you don't necessarily need a raid comp, some of other classes performs way more efficiently in a 5 man party than raids ones since it's only 5 ppl.

To be fair, Firebrand + Renegade is raid comp. People don't use it widely, partially because Chronos and Druids are already there, geared, experienced and whatnot. Sure, you lose the spirits and Spotter (which shouldn't matter in fractals because of stat conversion). Perhaps you'd want your banner warrior to take PS again (I'm not sure how reliably the renegade can cover both alacrity and might). But that's it. And a quickness Firebrand should outdps a chrono by a fair margin, so the group dps should be comparable.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I just realised it's the same discussion since 2012, only content changes, players are the same.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

I blame especs

[Obtena.7952]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I blame especs

This was an issue long before especs ... the 'cause' of the 'problem' is how the game is designed and it's mechanics, not specifically how the individual classes work.

[Indecision.4513]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I blame especs

This was an issue long before especs ... the 'cause' of the 'problem' is how the game is designed and it's mechanics, not specifically how the individual classes work.

How is the will to do something efficiently an „issue”?

This horse is long dead. Make your own „4 viper necro 1 druid” fractal group :pensive:

Why does no one cry about those? :p

[Faaris.8013]

@"Raguel.9402" said:This horse is long dead. Make your own „4 viper necro 1 druid” fractal group :pensive:Why does no one cry about those? :p

Because we are busy laughing about those ^^

Yesterday there was an LFG for Oasis that said "if you bring healer, I'll kick you". There were already 4 dps in ther group. Since I had nothing better to do, I kept watching it. That LFG was up for a very long time, I really doubt they found someone to join them.

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

How PPL done Fractals before without Healer, Chrono, Scourges ect.? There was a Meta before Fractal changes and still exists. If You are mad because of Elitism create ur own Group with some Friends. I Have no clue why PPL open a Thread for every "Im so Disapointed because of xxxxx Situation". The world has no other problems like this.

[Eramonster.2718]

@Evellynn Capone.6584 said:How PPL done Fractals before without Healer, Chrono, Scourges ect.?

Trial and error, learning from experience, practice I guessed? Completed Oasis T4 daily ytd with LFG. Took 7-8 wipes for Amala, considering 2-3 is NEW to 87, imo it went pretty well for a 5 DPS team. Had to find replacements after the 3rd and 5th wipe tho. Forgot the original setup but a Reaper and Holo joined in the end.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Alright, you guys have me convinced. Next time I run map complete, I'm going to form an elite 10 man raid meta group so that I can efficiently clear the content.

Ok now let's shift this conversation towards figuring out the proper and true definition of the term "meta"

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Alright, you guys have me convinced. Next time I run map complete, I'm going to form an elite 10 man raid meta group so that I can efficiently clear the content.

Go ahead, gl hf.

Ok now let's shift this conversation towards figuring out the proper and true definition of the term "meta"

No, why would we. Also, the term is already set for a game like GW2 and it is correct for its purpose. Btw. this is not a forum of semantics.

One last thing to meta in older fractals. Before HoT many groups were using a soldier guard (or other defensive stats) as an off-tank (heal) support. 5 pure DPS players was rarely the case and definitely not standard. And a mesmer was present as well. It hasn't changed that much if you believe so except we have more powerful elite specs with chrono, druid, temp and then weaver nowadays.

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:

Trial and error, learning from experience, practice I guessed? Completed Oasis T4 daily ytd with LFG. Took 7-8 wipes for Amala, considering 2-3 is NEW to 87, imo it went pretty well for a 5 DPS team. Had to find replacements after the 3rd and 5th wipe tho. Forgot the original setup but a Reaper and Holo joined in the end.

I forgot the Sarkasm in my Question.

There was a Setup with Zerkers: 2 Ele, 1 Guard / Mes, PS Warrior, Thief sometimes 1 more Guard same like Dungeon Groups.

A short Story about Frac lvl 90 yesterday with 4 man (one leaved before). It was a completly Random Group and was at the Flame Legion Champion. Open LFG a Thief joined and died more and more about the Mechanics and the last words from him "THIS WONT WORK WITHOUT A HEALER CYA". Atleast we finished and a Druid joins at the end.

[Faaris.8013]

30 minutes ago I was instantly kicked from a group after joining by two players. I joined with my second account and they probably didn't like my low APs and MPs ^^

I could have the No Hero Left Behind title, they would never even have seen it, just insta-kick. I wouldn't even call this elitism, it's wannabe-elitism maybe, in reality it's toxic prejudice, discrimination and exclusion. No need to call this elitism.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Alright, you guys have me convinced. Next time I run map complete, I'm going to form an elite 10 man raid meta group so that I can efficiently clear the content.

Ok now let's shift this conversation towards figuring out the proper and true definition of the term "meta"

Your sarcasm is misplaced. See the post above yours, speaking about trial and error. What trial and error can there be on your 10th playthrough? On your 50th? On your 500th?

[Obtena.7952]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:I blame especs

This was an issue long before especs ... the 'cause' of the 'problem' is how the game is designed and it's mechanics, not specifically how the individual classes work.

How is the will to do something efficiently an „issue”?

This horse is long dead. Make your own „4 viper necro 1 druid” fractal group :pensive:

Why does no one cry about those? :p

I don't get the question ... elitism and optimized comps for instanced content was an issue long before especs. Perhaps you misunderstood something.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Faaris.8013" said:30 minutes ago I was instantly kicked from a group after joining by two players. I joined with my second account and they probably didn't like my low APs and MPs ^^

I could have the No Hero Left Behind title, they would never even have seen it, just insta-kick. I wouldn't even call this elitism, it's wannabe-elitism maybe, in reality it's toxic prejudice, discrimination and exclusion. No need to call this elitism.

In a way I agree with you, I really do. But when further examining the roots of what births prejudice and discrimination, one can see that it is elitist behavior. The interesting thing is that when a minority undergoes exclusion, whether IRL or in an MMORPG, it is not seen as elitism because the majority has made some elitist expectation a standard. But when the minority excludes the majority to push and create an elitist standard, it is then seen as elitism. Two good examples of this are:

• Kids playing kickball on a playground. A couple kids are always last to be picked. No one wants them on their team because they don't meet the standard of expectation. That or maybe people just don't want to give them a chance for whatever reason. This scenario would commonly be seen as discrimination.
• The Skull And Bones Society through Yale University will not invite anyone into the society or even to any secret meetings of any kind, unless they meet a high level of expectation and/or interest. This is seen as elitism.

What is even more interesting is that elitism and things like prejudice/discrimination/exclusion are intrinsically the same exact thing. The behavior and psychological state of mind when performing the process of elitism/prejudice/discrimination, is the same exact thing. The only difference is that the word discrimination would be used when a large field of kids playing kickball decide that two kids don't meet "the meta" and don't want to play with them, whilst the word elitism would be used when a very small minority of well educated and privileged human beings decide who doesn't meet "the meta" to be a Skull Society member. Again, the behavior and process is the same thing. The only difference is when it is the majority deciding who is bad or when a minority is deciding who isn't good enough, but it the same exact thing.

What is important to understand about a particular instance of discrimination or elitism are the details behind the instance and if it was practical discrimination/elitism or simply ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion:

• The majority of the kids on the kickball field were in 8th grade. One of the kids being discriminated against was only in 6th grade. He looked smaller and less capable than the 8th graders which is why no one wanted him on their team. One could say "his visible APs were low and he wasn't wearing any legendary gear. They didn't think he would make a good team member". But if they would have given him a chance, they would have seen that he kept up just fine and in some cases, was faster and more accurate than the older kids because, little Joey was genetically destined to become a professional soccer player.
• The Skull And Bones Society in the past, would discriminate based on wealth/race/sexuality. Imagine the candidates who were not picked up, that indeed went on to form "the meta" in various aspects of NA culture/law/sociology.

The above are examples of ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion. The following are examples of practical exclusion/elitism:

• The other kid sitting out that no one wants on their team is a kid who has played with the other children many times. He often bullies and starts fights with the rest of his team mates, doesn't listen to plays and does only what he wants and in general, causes problems every time he plays. He also isn't very good in general and is a terrible pick for a winning team.
• The Skull And Bones Society rejects a particular person because they know he struggles through his schooling, barely makes the grade, his skills aren't of particular interest and his family lineage offers no special access to any establishments of interest, despite the fact that he wanted in so badly. He just didn't meet the "meta" expectations. If they were to let him in, even his sole presence would begin to lower the standard of expectation within the elite establishment, which is after all, supposed to be elite.

The above are examples of practical elitism/discrimination with purpose.

So I think it isn't really about what is elitism or what isn't but rather when is elitism ok? When is elitism practical and when is it just being unreasonable or even egotistical? Elitism when forming a high functioning raid guild is perfectly reasonable. But elitism when forming groups for casual content, is it really worth it? Are the pros for that one group greater than the cons spread through the whole community?

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Are the pros for that one group greater than the cons spread through the whole community?

Since everyone in the community isn't excluded at all by opening an own group your "wild thoughts" are not applicable!

A meta doesn't spread cons through the whole community as long as the majority doesn't follow or doesn't want to follow. And if so it's in no way a bad evolution of the community because it has turned out to be an advantage for the whole.

And again you want to force others to play "casually" or more in this direction which is a no-no for many people that have no time or don't want to deal with random wipes here and there. Pugging is still a matter of luck and people with work to do or family and a broad social life don't want to waste their saved time for gaming.Your experiences based on a handful of (semi-)successful non-meta runs doesn't align with mine and of others as shown in this thread.

Making comparisons is a bad habit if not done properly btw. They don't work in the slightest nor are they realistic at all. People have been more kind in letting players into their groups in GW2 than kids out there on the soccer playground. Of course people could overlook a rare unpolished jewel by setting 0 requirements but the past has shown that if you don't do this you get 99% discard you don't want to deal (a.k.a. carry) with.

Additionally, it's entirely ok to exclude others from playing together with their own (social) group. There is and there should never be any law at all that prevents this. Has nothing to do with discrimination at all.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Raguel.9402" said:You’re so far behind it’s cute. Nothing „bleeds” into fractals. There were lfgs asking for meta comps since dungeons.Yes, but those LFGs were a minority and were clearly labeled. Anyone trying to go in an unlabeled LFG expecting meta comp was preparing themselves for a world of pain and suffering. Now meta has suddenly become the "default" setting, and players are kicked out of unlabeled parties for not following it.Something has changed. Though i admit that it may not necessarily be a "contamination" from raids. It's enirely possible that the general changes to the fractal difficulty (and to game in general) simply chased away the more casual players, leaving only those elitist ones behind.

@"Evellynn Capone.6584" said:How PPL done Fractals before without Healer, Chrono, Scourges ect.?That was called the "whatever goes" composition. And it worked then. It has only becoming less usable lately because the changes to the fractals (and new fractals) are balanced around a much higher "efficiency" point.

[Faaris.8013]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Raguel.9402" said:How PPL done Fractals before without Healer, Chrono, Scourges ect.?That was called the "whatever goes" composition. And it worked then. It has only becoming less usable lately because the changes to the fractals (and new fractals) are balanced around a much higher "efficiency" point.

I think it has less to do with specific (changed or new) fractals. You can do all fractals with a group that consists of "whatever goes". If you have 5 players who use self-reliant build with gear, traits and skills that support this, I don't see how they would suffer in the new fractals.

The problem comes when you have specialized builds and self-reliant builds in the same group. If every member plays the "whatever goes" way or the meta way, everything is fine. It's just easier to get a meta group going because the requirements are very specific. So specific, you know exactly how every player in the group is set up and what their role is. The "whatever goes" builds are vague. There are lots of different setups that work and it's likely that you lose efficiency because you have a surplus of health, toughness or healing in the group. I trait according to the group setup I join. If there's a chrono/firebrand, I don't need to take care of quickness myself, if there's a healer, I don't need to take of that for myself. When I'm in a group without chrono/firebrand or healer, I play a different Daredevil. And even then, I need to communicate to find out what the groups offers (which is not innately a bad thing). You got a ranger, but you don't know if he's playing soulbeast dps or healer. Same with firebrand. The tendency is to trait very conservative. I go with more health, more healing, less dps, maybe even expect to go range. "whatever goes" is "like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

It's just more convenient to choose the meta group way. Also, what I figured out about myself is, I simply like high risk, high reward gaming. I like that there is the possibility of getting wiped. That's why I play assassin classes in games for years. Contrary to what many here seem to believe about meta compositions, it's not "easier". It's harder to stay alive with a squishy build. If you play a 30k health scourge, what's the challenge really? It would be utterly boring to me to not have the risk of actually failing an encounter. There is also an exciting risk level to join a "whatever goes" group of course, and sometimes I do just that. Often though, there's this "meta" guy who forgot what kind of group he joined and expects people to do as much dps as a meta build, and gets angry. Both ways are fine, just don't mix them up. Difficulty of the fractals has nothing to do with it. Reason why people want a meta composition is rather because they don't like surprises and are more comfortable in a specific role, and because it's more efficient, and efficiency is fun.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Raguel.9402" said:You’re so far behind it’s cute. Nothing „bleeds” into fractals. There were lfgs asking for meta comps since dungeons.Yes, but those LFGs were a minority and were clearly labeled. Anyone trying to go in an unlabeled LFG expecting meta comp was preparing themselves for a world of pain and suffering. Now meta has suddenly become the "default" setting, and players are kicked out of unlabeled parties for not following it.Something

has

changed. Though i admit that it may not necessarily be a "contamination" from raids. It's enirely possible that the general changes to the fractal difficulty (and to game in general) simply chased away the more casual players, leaving only those elitist ones behind.

On one hand I agree. On the other hand, anet is specifically balancing the game to make players use the only possible logical choices when theorycrafting. We are closer and closer to meta builds being the only choices for our specs, as other options seem to be irrelevant or illogical in comparison.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Are the pros for that one group greater than the cons spread through the whole community?

Since everyone in the community isn't excluded at all by opening an own group your "wild thoughts" are not applicable!

A meta doesn't spread cons through the whole community as long as the majority doesn't follow or doesn't want to follow. And if so it's in no way a bad evolution of the community because it has turned out to be an advantage for the whole.

And again you want to force others to play "casually" or more in this direction which is a no-no for many people that have no time or don't want to deal with random wipes here and there. Pugging is still a matter of luck and people with work to do or family and a broad social life don't want to waste their saved time for gaming.Your experiences based on a handful of (semi-)successful non-meta runs doesn't align with mine and of others as shown in this thread.

Making comparisons is a bad habit if not done properly btw. They don't work in the slightest nor are they realistic at all. People have been more kind in letting players into their groups in GW2 than kids out there on the soccer playground. Of course people could overlook a rare unpolished jewel by setting 0 requirements but the past has shown that if you don't do this you get 99% discard you don't want to deal (a.k.a. carry) with.

Additionally, it's entirely ok to exclude others from playing together with their own (social) group. There is and there should never be any law at all that prevents this. Has nothing to do with discrimination at all.

1. My thoughts are definitely applicable. Probably a top analysis of "gamer elitism" actually, if you were to go out of your way to search up the topic.
2. But the majority IS beginning to follow raid meta elite expectation in the casual game mode. Ultimately this will begin to push more players out of fractals who would have otherwise shown up and began to learn, the very same as it did in raids. The higher standard that is set by groups in fractals, the more and more of a turn off it becomes for new players. Again, is this necessary in a casual game mode? And don't go into "make your own group" when 3/4ths of the groups I see posted lately are forming raid metas. It is becoming more and more rare to find casual T4 groups, which is why I post themself usually, to help the newer players waiting.
3. I never said I wanted to "force" anyone to do anything. I'd like to see you a quote a single example of that from this thread. My handful of experiences with semi-successful runs? I guess having the fractal savant title would indicate that "I've done a handful of runs in my time".

That's a lot of injection in attempts to completely convolute my statements.

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

But the majority IS beginning to follow raid meta elite expectation in the casual game mode. Ultimately this will begin to push more players out of fractals who would have otherwise shown up and began to learn, the very same as it did in raids. The higher standard that is set by groups in fractals, the more and more of a turn off it becomes for new players. Again, is this necessary in a casual game mode?"I've done a handful of runs in my time".I guess having the fractal savant titleIt is becoming more and more rare to find casual T4 groups, which is why I post themself usually, to help the newer players waiting.

First of all ur Title say nothing about how many experience u have in Fractals.U done handful of Runs uhm... nice to hear but how long are u playin Fractals? Thie Meta exists before Fractal Change and u have to know about your "handful runs". Its not hard to find Casual Groups for Fractals (maybe 5 - 10 mins waiting and the Group is full). PPL wont waste his time in Fractals when they know its faster with a "ELITISM GROUP SETUP..." if you have nothing more than to upset you about elitism why dont ignore these Groups?