WvW restructure will fail if you do not balance defensive power

[HazyDaisy.4107]

3 hours estimate is a bit excessive in this day and age if we're talking about 1 continuous run, maybe 3 years ago, but I haven't seen a single 3 hour fight to get into a keep in a long time. At most lately its maybe a hour continuously for successful entry to lords and even that's the most extreme case from the attacking teams side.

In short, your estimate is not every instance, only the rare or drawn out ones that require multiple invasions to wear down defense.

When (and if) populations are more even, then defense might become "OP" again, but as it stands now, even the little bit of extra protection walls and gates provide are no match for a determined attacking force. Defense does not have the upper hand now in 75% of the cases and I'm rather tired of people claiming they do and suggesting their few benefits be limited even further.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Substance E.4852 said:Literally the only problem is Arrow Carts.

Everything else is solved by their weakening or outright removal.-Doors become easier to assault.-Enemies actually have to leave the walls, or get up on them, to kill the catas.-Fighting inside a place like inner Bay stops becoming a meat grinder when there isn't a 1k+ death zone from a single cart that costs 30 supply.

yes, this. I think the only thing that needs to be done is to tone down the # of targets.trebs downing walls from halfway across the map isn't helpful either. I get that this is one of the few ways a smaller server can cap stuff but if the bigger server does it as well (which they do) then its more of a benefit for them imo. if youre the smaller server I think its wiser to just split up, which I know rarely happens. idk man. 1st world problems eh?

[hunkamania.7561]

Ya, defense is definitely overtuned and needs some balance but maybe more 2v1's can break those aids T3 structures when the alliance system comes into play. Maybe when winning is worth something those T3 structures will be broken a lot more often. As of now it's overtuned for the defensive.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"Caliburn.1845" said:Defense is overpowered right now. Every major WvW commander in the game right now knows it. The only difference is some commanders will push the T3s to get a fight, and others will avoid T3s.

Upgraded keeps and castles should be hard to take however, they need to be worth something or no one will defend.

But rather than nerfing defensive abilities I think the solution should come in two parts.

1) Give offensive commanders a bigger toolkit and more tactical options. Simple stuff. Maybe add a passive effect to dragon/centuar/turtle banners that negates the presence of the keep stats bonus to defenders. Make the tactivators destructible, maybe a long multiple person commune or something. Tweaks along those lines.

2) BRING THE FIGHT OUTSIDE THE WALLS. Add objectives worth fighting for that exist outside a fortified T3 structure. One that I have favored for a long time is the ability to supply "starve" a keep. Say for example Hills on Alpine BL, if you hold the two supply camps that feed it dolyaks for a set period of time, it flips to your side, regardless of upgrade level.

Another favorite of mine is to bring back the orbs, albeit in an altered form. Make the orbs give a PPT boost perhaps, but only when housed in a tower or keep. The catch would be that the orb automatically opens the gates of whatever structure it resides in. So servers would have a choice, play for the PPT boost, and make their structures vulnerable. Or not.

Want a strategical option? Use your fugging heads...Attack multiple points.The only reason why anyone complains that objectives are too hard to capture it's because WvW became a game of zombies. People just follow that tag everywhere, and commanders are just happy to throw that mob at obstacles and wait till they break.Spreading your command to attack several points at once never crosses anyone's head, it's just stack and hack.

[Fuyunet.8497]

Attack multiple points eh. Hopefully you realize most commanders aren't trying to ppt. They trying to look for fights. Also I can put an ac and stop 10 man attack on a structure. That is 30~50 supply. Imagine if two people were there to sit on ac with me. Easy defense.

[zinkz.7045]

The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Fuyunet.8497 said:Attack multiple points eh. Hopefully you realize most commanders aren't trying to ppt. They trying to look for fights. Also I can put an ac and stop 10 man attack on a structure. That is 30~50 supply. Imagine if two people were there to sit on ac with me. Easy defense.

If commanders aren't looking for objectives, they shouldn't be commanding... Or at least not complaining that objectives are too hard to defend.And the guys attacking you won't be using those same ACs?Not to mention it's easier to aim a AC from outside in than from the inside out.So again, commanders need to use their head, which a few of them quit doing a couple years ago.

@zinkz.7045 said:The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...Is it because it's harder to attack? Or easier to defend? Because nothing changed on those mechanics... Or maybe because too many people don't care about the game mode, they just want to keep participation up.

[zinkz.7045]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"zinkz.7045" said:The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...Is it because it's harder to attack? Or easier to defend? Because nothing changed on those mechanics...

You can't have played the game that long if you think nothing has changed in that regard, the changes to the way the objectives upgrade such as no gold, based on dollys not supply, is automatic, etc, all the tactics like invurn, chilling fog, supply, invurn dolyaks, etc, increased fortified, ACs damage has been buffed, etc, the "balance" of objectives has moved much more in favour of defending them and being able to easily upgrade them.

[Fuyunet.8497]

Most structures have pre built ACs, meaning I can do more damage to the people trying to ac "outside in" before they even get the ac up. Not to mention they have limited supply and I (defender) usually has abundance of supply few steps behind me as well as all the tactivators like invuln walls to make it even more snooze fest.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...Is it because it's harder to attack? Or easier to defend? Because nothing changed on those mechanics...

You can't have played the game that long if you think nothing has changed in that regard, the changes to the way the objectives upgrade such as no gold, based on dollys not supply, is automatic, etc, all the tactics like invurn, chilling fog, supply, invurn dolyaks, etc, increased fortified, ACs damage has been buffed, etc, the "balance" of objectives has moved much more in favour of defending them and being able to easily upgrade them.

Well, i have the achievements (and the finishers) from the WvW tournaments to prove i was there... My world has a golden dolyak.Oh, you're saying since 2 years ago? When i talk for a while now i'm thinking the last 6 months to a year, not since HoT launched...

I can't say, honestly, since WvW is extremely different in my world since even before HoT, most of the best commanders left, and a lot of guilds moved out because there were arguments and disagreements, so they kinda dispersed. (i'm thinking that at least the EU guys will know which world that is :p)But i still have been in awesome fights in garrissons, bay, etc.

I never blamed the changes in the system (which were much needed, i had to stop playing WvW for a while because i was sinking too much gold in upgrades), more the changes in the community. Sure Shield generators and desert borderlands were kinda dismal to WvW, but it was failing before that, especially in my world.

But i never found it harder to attack than defend since ever. That you can't say it is. Because the same way i can get a shield to block some siege, you can have 2-3 to shield your catapults. And since launch there has been a disadvantage (Obstructed) for people defending from the walls where people fighting from below can easily target aoes and arrow carts up on the walls.I've had Arrow carts that were placed literally in mid-air at the opposite edge of the wall on one of those protrusions, still get wrecked by player AoEs, not other arrow carts.So yeah, you can't tell me that it's easier to defend than attack. Not when you can storm a T3 keep with 6 guys, easily.And you know why i can do that? Because WvW is a Herd game. I just had to wait for their comm to attack our T1 keep, and me and 5 other guys just dropped 2 catas in Hills, and got the lord before they even started moving towards their T3 keep.

That's something that i've done during tournaments, that's something you can still do today.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Fuyunet.8497 said:Attack multiple points eh. Hopefully you realize most commanders aren't trying to ppt. They trying to look for fights. Also I can put an ac and stop 10 man attack on a structure. That is 30~50 supply. Imagine if two people were there to sit on ac with me. Easy defense.

If commanders aren't looking for objectives, they shouldn't be commanding... Or at least not complaining that objectives are too hard to defend.And the guys attacking you won't be using those same ACs?Not to mention it's easier to aim a AC from outside in than from the inside out.So again, commanders need to use their head, which a few of them quit doing a couple years ago.

@zinkz.7045 said:The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...Is it because it's harder to attack? Or easier to defend? Because nothing changed on those mechanics... Or maybe because too many people don't care about the game mode, they just want to keep participation up.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Fuyunet.8497 said:Attack multiple points eh. Hopefully you realize most commanders aren't trying to ppt. They trying to look for fights. Also I can put an ac and stop 10 man attack on a structure. That is 30~50 supply. Imagine if two people were there to sit on ac with me. Easy defense.

If commanders aren't looking for objectives, they shouldn't be commanding... Or at least not complaining that objectives are too hard to defend.And the guys attacking you won't be using those same ACs?Not to mention it's easier to aim a AC from outside in than from the inside out.So again, commanders need to use their head, which a few of them quit doing a couple years ago.

@zinkz.7045 said:The most fun fights for a zerg were often those in garri, hills, etc, there is a reason those have been much less frequent for a while now...Is it because it's harder to attack? Or easier to defend? Because nothing changed on those mechanics... Or maybe because too many people don't care about the game mode, they just want to keep participation up.

Have you actually pugmanded? Not sure what the pugs are like in your region but most tend to ditch without bread and circuses. Bread being the karma train and circuses being fights.

If it is a staring contest between groups of 50 it is hard to keep the crowd alert.

[Caliburn.1845]

Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Fuyunet.8497 said:Attack multiple points eh. Hopefully you realize most commanders aren't trying to ppt. They trying to look for fights.

Looking for fights....

So.. why break open the structure?

You think that group whether even numbers or not, that has a chance to come out to fight you under that same in your words overpowered AC fire, is going to stick around to fight you when the wall falls?

Smh...

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

[Rampage.7145]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

You are new to WvW we understand, i mean it is ok bro, you obviously never commanded, and yeah people open structures to look for fights cuz game is so dead sometimes is the only way to pull people to fight into the map and whatnot, it is just how it is, it has always been that way, guilds/pugmanders used this tactic to lure fights to them in order to keep the squad having fun since 2013 (think of a commander as an entertainer ok? any succesfull commander is fun to follow basically), you would know this if you commanded or drove a guild like caliburn and me but it is ok we understand new players have their rights to have an opinion, a wrong opinion but hey people voted for trump right?

[MedievalThings.5417]

What people keep saying: We are just looking for fights.What they actually mean: We are looking for quick, easy loot. Every time I see a tag say they only want fights, they avoid equal or larger groups, and anything that slows how fast they get drops. After they win quick fights against smaller or less organized (somewhat equal sized) groups, they link their heavy loot bags and talk about needing to see a vendor.

Stop kidding yourselves and lying to everyone else. The reason no one takes on larger structures with a nearly equal size defending force, is because the time to loot ratio isn't good enough.

[bq pd.2148]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

yup , cause the 'large 75%+ of your own forces zerg' is busy with your zerg. but those pugmanders dont want to split up as they only care for the 'fight' were they need their full manpower..you could also try to communicate with and utilize your servers roamers, they can be very helpful to supply starve objectives or open another side of it. as a roamer i can look at what my commander does and help him, but i rarely see a commander actually asking for specific tasks for smaller forces, while i see alot of roamers just running kinda random on the map just looking for something to do or opponents.

if you can take an objective against even numbers, even if it takes 3 hours, then defense is not at an advantage. if defense was at an advantage you would need a considerable larger attacking force to be able to capture it at all.

with offensive shieldgens in the game there is no defense that will stop an organized large zerg get into anything.

[Drinks.2361]

@Ubi.4136 said:What they actually mean: We are looking for quick, easy loot. Every time I see a tag say they only want fights, they avoid equal or larger groups, and anything that slows how fast they get drops.

If we cared about loot & ninja-ing tower's we'd have been playing Silverwastes years ago

[Israel.7056]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

Proof of claim?

[Djamonja.6453]

I don't feel like the tactivators affect the defense of a structure that much in regard to the walls/gates -- ACs and other siege do for sure, but not really tactivators. I'm also not really persuaded that it is too hard to take a tier 3 keep/tower with defenders and siege. I feel like it should be a challenge, and there are usually ways to break it down with good siege usage. It might take a while if it's well defended, but you can usually wear them down as long as you are able to beat them in a straight up fight.

[Djamonja.6453]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

If this was on Mag's BL, it doesn't count ;)

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

Proof of claim?

It's done nightly Israel. I don't video. Take it for what it's worth.

Rampage thinks I'm full of kitten anyway. It's all good.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Caliburn.1845 said:Sure, on underpopulated worlds, with gaps in coverage T3s flip all the time. It is easy to take a T3 when they have only a handful of people defending it.

What we're talking about is taking T3s in the face an active opposition force of say at least 75% of the attacking force. If you want to argue that attacking is as easy as defending...there is no point in really arguing with you, you've obviously never led a large force against a competent enemy.

As to hitting other targets. The response time from spawn to anywhere is generally 90 seconds or less. Unless you're fighting incompetent rabble who are defending, or you have an active third server(all too rare nowadays), your attempt to hit another target will see the same defenders above you on the wall.

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

You are new to WvW we understand, i mean it is ok bro, you obviously never commanded, and yeah people open structures to look for fights cuz game is so dead sometimes is the only way to pull people to fight into the map and whatnot, it is just how it is, it has always been that way, guilds/pugmanders used this tactic to lure fights to them in order to keep the squad having fun since 2013 (think of a commander as an entertainer ok? any succesfull commander is fun to follow basically), you would know this if you commanded or drove a guild like caliburn and me but it is ok we understand new players have their rights to have an opinion, a wrong opinion but hey people voted for trump right?

The tough guy persona... it's a nice cover.

But yeah.. you don't want to PPT. I get it. Keep telling yourself.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Djamonja.6453 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

If this was on Mag's BL, it doesn't count ;)

Mag doesn't have a BL. Mag doesn't play on anything other than EBG.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Djamonja.6453 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

Again, a three man group consistently is able to take towers as t-2 to 3 on a T1 world during NA prime... please.

Your doing it wrong.

If this was on Mag's BL, it doesn't count ;)

Mag doesn't have a BL. Mag doesn't play on anything other than EBG.

And they aren't in T1