WvW restructure will fail if you do not balance defensive power

[coro.3176]

Agree with OP (except instant lord revives). The defense mechanics should encourage fights instead of siege wars.

I would also suggest there should be at least 1 attack point for each keep (outer only) that can't be countersieged. These should not be efficient or fast (eg. long treb shot), but they should force the defenders to actually come out and fight the attackers in order to defend rather than sit in the keep and counter-treb or ballista.

Either that, or make shield generators much cheaper so a small group can force a fight rather than get counter-sieged all day and get bored / give up.

[King Latif.6903]

@Baldrick.8967 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:

@"MUDse.7623" said:

all those defensive 'gimmicks' as you name them actually make it more interesting. else you would have one fight and then the losing team will just logg off cause they cant even use the envoirement to even the match and make for more interesting fights.

They don't make the game more interesting for the team that can't do anything to find a fight, they also dont make the game interesting for the team that is fighting 10 ACs 2 shields 2 catapults trying to PVD a door while the whole enemy blob is just sitting inside, i mean defending outnumbered is a thing but this all collapses when this defensive gimmicks are used by a team just as large as the atacking force is, defending should be done by man power honestly. If you dont have the mampower u should lose and u should lose baddy so you get matched up vs lower populated worlds (assuming matchmaking is fixed ofc). It makes no sense that a team that has 20 people online have 3 T3 keeps generating points while a team that has 120 has the same ammount generating the same points, in this case both teams are actually having a bad time here both getting bored. So unless the 20 man team can actually kill that 100 man team on a real fight there should be no reasson for this matchup to exist, low pop team should be loosing bad not scoring near the same points, in order for the matchmaking system to give them a more balanced enemy.

For someone who claims to have so much experience you seem to have, you seem to be completely lacking in tactics or any sort of strategic thinking, other than 'rub face on door with 50 people' then moan when it doesn't work.

If the whole enemy blob is sitting inside one target, attack several targets at once.

Have a small havoc team set up siege to take out the defensive siege in other places while you draw all the enemy away to another tower/keep.

Trebs from afar on a different objective whilst you keep the enemy tied up defending where you are, wiping out all their defences.

Get 2/3 people to set up catapults at different targets- they might get discovered but in the meantime they might do 200-300 supplies of damage to the wall, or wipe several ac, etc.

If they only have 20 people online they aren't going to come out and fight your entire zone blob- that would be just stupid. However, if you engaged your brain you'd quickly realise that the cannot defend everything at once, and that is your real advantage. Your disadvantage is that having trained a zerg of brain dead zombies to follow you and only do what you say (as it leads to most loot bags/easy p6 particiaption) is asking people to then think and split off to go and do something that might get them less rewards might be too much of a challenge- especially as if half the zerg is your guild, you'll probably ask the 'pugs' to go do it as it's beneath your guildies...

Just because you struggle against well organised defence doesn't mean it should be removed from the game so you can press the 'i win' button.

1. If attackers can split up so can defenders and it only takes about 5-10 people to defend pretty much anything if they know what they're doing.
2. No one can be bothered with this because it's boring.
3. No one can be bothered with this because it's boring.
4. No one can be bothered with this because it's boring.
5. If they really only have 20 people online then they should lose all their stuff.
6. Everyone struggles against "well organized defense" aka siege humping and it makes the game slower and less action oriented as a result.

Clearly your very narrow minded in your thinking. For many servers they would love to have 20 people online a lot of the time!

Your answer is basically 'we have more numbers we should auto-win'. You might think actually using some tactics is boring, but without them you are creating your own mess and then complaining about it.

Clearly thinking or adopting tactics to suit the situation is beyond you. It's not boring to have to think of ways to win other than 'we have more players we should always win'.

Cut out defence and you would have literally no one to fight. Put yourself in their shoes. Without defence, why would they bother trying to hold off your zone blob?

If you can't stand not having enough people to fight, then move servers with 5 like minded people and look for easier fights.

Agreed , whats the point in structures if you devalue everything about them to get a fight

[timetopat.7921]

So you want musical forts where we get karma and go in a big circle while the other teams do the same and nobody fights?

[Rampage.7145]

@coro.3176 said:Agree with OP (except instant lord revives). The defense mechanics should encourage fights instead of siege wars.

I would also suggest there should be at least 1 attack point for each keep (outer only) that can't be countersieged. These should not be efficient or fast (eg. long treb shot), but they should force the defenders to actually come out and fight the attackers in order to defend rather than sit in the keep and counter-treb or ballista.

Either that, or make shield generators much cheaper so a small group can force a fight rather than get counter-sieged all day and get bored / give up.

Lord should be easy to kill easy to revive holding the circle should be constant action, not waiting 5 mins until the attackers finally DPS the boss like a freaking PVE raid so the enemies can go in, there should be constant back and forth action on that lord's room, chaos and death for as long the fight lasts. Like it was back in the day, now it feels like a mini PVE raid and it takes too long to kill to force engage the fights, it should be much more fluid.

[Hackuuna.4085]

@timetopat.7921 said:So you want musical forts where we get karma and go in a big circle while the other teams do the same and nobody fights?

Right now it's musical camps and T1 towers. I'm not even sure if I've seen a T3 keep flip in NA prime in the last 6 months in Tier 1.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

All good ideas. I'd also like to add,

• Remove shield generators (slows the game down)
• Remove structural integrity (should be a moot point if the old system comes back about manual upgrades, meaning, scouts, meaning early call couts
• Only allow as many arrow carts in a structure as it it's level: T1 = 1 AC, T2 = 2 AC's, T3 = 3 AC's max

The time it takes to take a T3 structure (especially keep) is a problem; takes too long. Much like how people would actively avoid T1 due to BG's over-stacking problem, it's also a problem when players actively avoid T3 structures due the length of time it takes, and the volume of AC's they have to fight under. If Anet finally addressed the population problem, then most certainly I can see them addressing the T3 / AC problem.

Edit - While we are at it, if we do happen to go back to manual upgrades, perhaps Anet can add more upgrade options. Perhaps even reward options that increases map wide bonuses for taking various objectives.

[Hiraldo.7954]

Ya'll are completely missing the point of OP's post it seems.

• Objectives are currently too easy to defend
• The current system actively discourages fighting, causing people to turtle in upgraded objectives
• Objectives upgrade themselves during off-hours, making playing in prime timezones an uphill battle
• Siege Wars 2 is boring for the vast majority of players involved, gameplay largely consists of pressing 1-2 buttons on siege or doing nothing at all and being hit by arrowcarts or mortars or whatever while you wait for something to happen
• It's current year, nobody really cares about karmatraining, interesting and dynamic mass-combat is what WvW has always been about but a lot of changes over the years have greatly detracted from this and made the game mode duller

OP isn't asking to be able to quickly and easily take whatever objectives he chooses just because he shows up and knocks, he wants both defending and attacking to be more dynamic, involving, and skill-based than it currently is. Let's be honest, PPT doesn't matter anymore, the rewards for "winning" are negligible, the reward for playing WvW is the gameplay itself. Saving a keep from an enemy blob is fun. Taking a keep from an enemy blob is fun. Winning a close fight is fun. Losing a close fight is fun. Bottom line, FIGHTING is fun, especially if it's close. Therefore, designing a system that encourages and enables evenly matched, varied, skill based, and frequent fights will make the game mode more fun.

Obviously, some people do enjoy sieging objectives for extended periods and preforming non-combative actions in order to defend or upgrade objectives. WvW has always and will always have a place for these people, whether that be scouting, trebbing, ninja-ing keeps or towers undetected, or what have you. But the rest of us should not be forced into that niche as well. In days past the game accommodated both types of player well, and I think it desperately needs to move sharply back in that direction soon if it is to stop hemorrhaging players.

Next time you're in WvW, look carefully at the bottom of your screen. You'll notice that there is a collection of weapon and profession skills there. If you press H, you can also use different types of weapons and armor, and if you go to the traits tab, you can choose a number of passive abilities too. These are always available to you, and can be used while moving! They also require no supply to activate! There's actually quite a lot of different things you can do with them, more than any type of siege by far!

Let's get back to using our player skills on the bad guys and doing our best to avoid the bad guys' skills. It's what this game does better than any other. Siege gameplay IS an important part of WvW but it is waaaaaaay too impactful right now, and should be used primarily as an avenue to enable more engaging content. Let us all fight, win or lose, whatever, just make the most engaging part of this game mode something that is encouraged once again and something that people want to do again.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Do you really think that opening those towers/keeps when that 50 person group won't come out to face your even numbers wil actually get them to fight you? Really?

They won't come out with siege on their side, what makes you think they'll fight you if you get in faster?

If they turtle with even numbers AND siege, they are going to leave. And take another structure. So...,,

If your purpose is fights, this won't encourage them.

[Blodeuyn.2751]

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Blodeuyn.2751 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And here is a tip for anyone struggling to take an objective while still having superior numbers... Work on improving your commanding and tactical skills, don’t rely on the devs to change the rules and code things so it’s easier for you.

LOL ok buddy, i'll keep that in mind, yet it dosnt change anything since it is not only me, nobody can take anything nowdays. I am guessing all commanders are just bad ok i got it. What is stated tho was more about going back to the old rules, i dont know at least players that played for as long as i did will probably remember how epic the game used to be, and sure part of it has to do with numbers and activity (which is a problem the devs are looking into it right now, hence why of my post), but a big part of it is also the devs making terrible design choices over the years that drove a lot of people away form the game.

Nobody can take anything anymore? What? My three-person group constantly takes things, including T3 keeps. Strategy matters!

Sure when the game is dead, how do you do then there is a 50 man blob defending that keep? how do you do when every map is qued for all the servers to take that keep? assuming arenanet do the alliances correctly and every map is full of people 24/7 how do you plan on doing that?

Against a 50-man blob, no. In that situation you have to plan it out and wait if you're going to do it. I've placed catas directly underneath enemies standing on a wall and taken the tower from them while they were distracted with siege placed farther away. You just have to be willing to try crazy things and know the enemy's weakness. For me that is fun.

Part of my concern in the official restructuring thread is the potential for more blobs and ktrains. I agree that activity is good, indeed it is necessary. I just don't want wvw to turn into an even less skilled game mode.

[Fuyunet.8497]

I am sorry to tell all of you fgts but trebbing a t3 keep for hours and hours is not an engaging content. Why the fuck would anyone want to sit on a treb with their macro for hours? I can be spending my time watching my character in BDO fish and have much better time.

PS: I am Number Wan Trebber In Maguuma [TREB]

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Fuyunet.8497 said:I am sorry to tell all of you kitten but trebbing a t3 keep for hours and hours is not an engaging content. Why the kitten would anyone want to sit on a treb with their macro for hours? I can be spending my time watching my character in BDO fish and have much better time.

PS: I am Number Wan Trebber In Maguuma [TREB]

Wait... you are from Maguuma who abhor PPT. Why are you trebbing a keep?

[Drinks.2361]

pips obviously

[Hiraldo.7954]

Pippin' ain't easy

[ArchonWing.9480]

.......

I think defense is important and think you should be able to hold a keep with a fewer people, but besides no. 2 those are brilliant suggestions. Arrow carts should have never been buffed and people should be able to wp back. Changing these things made it really, really boring and OP's suggestions would make the gameplay more rewarding.

It is not just objectives are too easy to defend, but they are also so braindead to defend too. Anyone with a clue will still be able to defend with these changes.

But truth be told , if siege monkeys are still prevalent then there was never any hope anyways. Call me selfish, but I will never get on a treb and will probably go afk or log off if it turns out to be an hour long siegefest.

[Caliburn.1845]

Defense is overpowered right now. Every major WvW commander in the game right now knows it. The only difference is some commanders will push the T3s to get a fight, and others will avoid T3s.

Upgraded keeps and castles should be hard to take however, they need to be worth something or no one will defend.

But rather than nerfing defensive abilities I think the solution should come in two parts.

1) Give offensive commanders a bigger toolkit and more tactical options. Simple stuff. Maybe add a passive effect to dragon/centuar/turtle banners that negates the presence of the keep stats bonus to defenders. Make the tactivators destructible, maybe a long multiple person commune or something. Tweaks along those lines.

2) BRING THE FIGHT OUTSIDE THE WALLS. Add objectives worth fighting for that exist outside a fortified T3 structure. One that I have favored for a long time is the ability to supply "starve" a keep. Say for example Hills on Alpine BL, if you hold the two supply camps that feed it dolyaks for a set period of time, it flips to your side, regardless of upgrade level.

Another favorite of mine is to bring back the orbs, albeit in an altered form. Make the orbs give a PPT boost perhaps, but only when housed in a tower or keep. The catch would be that the orb automatically opens the gates of whatever structure it resides in. So servers would have a choice, play for the PPT boost, and make their structures vulnerable. Or not.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Caliburn.1845" said:Defense is overpowered right now. Every major WvW commander in the game right now knows it. The only difference is some commanders will push the T3s to get a fight, and others will avoid T3s.

Upgraded keeps and castles should be hard to take however, they need to be worth something or no one will defend.

But rather than nerfing defensive abilities I think the solution should come in two parts.

1) Give offensive commanders a bigger toolkit and more tactical options. Simple stuff. Maybe add a passive effect to dragon/centuar/turtle banners that negates the presence of the keep stats bonus to defenders. Make the tactivators destructible, maybe a long multiple person commune or something. Tweaks along those lines.

2) BRING THE FIGHT OUTSIDE THE WALLS. Add objectives worth fighting for that exist outside a fortified T3 structure. One that I have favored for a long time is the ability to supply "starve" a keep. Say for example Hills on Alpine BL, if you hold the two supply camps that feed it dolyaks for a set period of time, it flips to your side, regardless of upgrade level.

Another favorite of mine is to bring back the orbs, albeit in an altered form. Make the orbs give a PPT boost perhaps, but only when housed in a tower or keep. The catch would be that the orb automatically opens the gates of whatever structure it resides in. So servers would have a choice, play for the PPT boost, and make their structures vulnerable. Or not.

Camp idea is interesting, though in principle not sure I like it.

But again, if that group is sitting in those structures with even numbers and siege covering the front, what makes you think those same even numbers will face you without it?

And if it's 10v50, they would be stupid to come out.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:(free silver cost)

Ignoring the rest of the post, this leaves me somewhat confused.

Back in the day camp/keep/tower upgrades were manual, it woud cost real gold to upgrade for example to get T3 walls on SMC u would need to pay 2 gold from your own money to manually triiger the upgrade to start, i am proposing to go back to that system but without the personal cost of doing this since defenders would spend 100s of gold a week playing the game basically. Manually triggering upgrades would ensure keeps in your BL do not get ghost. auto upgraded all the way to T3 for example while nobody is willing to take them back, there would need to be people actually triggering this stuff. this way the morning server hero who tags up willing to start a squad in the morning with his 5 other guys do not have to painfully cap a bunch of T3 keeps and tores that auto upgraded overnight

Ok but that still doesnt explain how there can be a free silver cost. If it use silver, it's not free but if it's free there cant be a cost.

It's like saying lets go kill that dead living corpse, you know?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Blodeuyn.2751 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And here is a tip for anyone struggling to take an objective while still having superior numbers... Work on improving your commanding and tactical skills, don’t rely on the devs to change the rules and code things so it’s easier for you.

LOL ok buddy, i'll keep that in mind, yet it dosnt change anything since it is not only me, nobody can take anything nowdays. I am guessing all commanders are just bad ok i got it. What is stated tho was more about going back to the old rules, i dont know at least players that played for as long as i did will probably remember how epic the game used to be, and sure part of it has to do with numbers and activity (which is a problem the devs are looking into it right now, hence why of my post), but a big part of it is also the devs making terrible design choices over the years that drove a lot of people away form the game.

Nobody can take anything anymore? What? My three-person group constantly takes things, including T3 keeps. Strategy matters!

Sure when the game is dead, how do you do then there is a 50 man blob defending that keep? how do you do when every map is qued for all the servers to take that keep? assuming arenanet do the alliances correctly and every map is full of people 24/7 how do you plan on doing that?

2-3 man groups take things in NA prime in T1. With the outnumbered buff on.

It will still happen.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Blodeuyn.2751 said:

@Rampage.7145 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:And here is a tip for anyone struggling to take an objective while still having superior numbers... Work on improving your commanding and tactical skills, don’t rely on the devs to change the rules and code things so it’s easier for you.

LOL ok buddy, i'll keep that in mind, yet it dosnt change anything since it is not only me, nobody can take anything nowdays. I am guessing all commanders are just bad ok i got it. What is stated tho was more about going back to the old rules, i dont know at least players that played for as long as i did will probably remember how epic the game used to be, and sure part of it has to do with numbers and activity (which is a problem the devs are looking into it right now, hence why of my post), but a big part of it is also the devs making terrible design choices over the years that drove a lot of people away form the game.

Nobody can take anything anymore? What? My three-person group constantly takes things, including T3 keeps. Strategy matters!

Sure when the game is dead, how do you do then there is a 50 man blob defending that keep? how do you do when every map is qued for all the servers to take that keep? assuming arenanet do the alliances correctly and every map is full of people 24/7 how do you plan on doing that?

2-3 man groups take things in NA prime in T1. With the outnumbered buff on.

It will still happen.

Blobs are mindless.

[Israel.7056]

Good offensive tools would be like a tactivator that would allow you to destroy all siege in an objective at once or a piece of siege that could break a wall in one shot or a tool that would make it so that enemies wouldn't see OJs or white swords or a way to disable emergency waypoints things like that.

Maybe give us FOBs and let us upgrade those so an offensive commander could set one up and then upgrade it so an offensive attempt would be much much easier. Perhaps let those have EWPs too.

Maybe just give us a nuclear option to completely reset one objective of our choice on a map if certain conditions are met. Put it in the middle of the map like the old orb stuff so there's a reason for people to learn how to fight without siege.

Anything to speed up the pace of the game and make it more action oriented and combat focused and less tedious and siege oriented.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Israel.7056 said:Good offensive tools would be like a tactivator that would allow you to destroy all siege in an objective at once or a piece of siege that could break a wall in one shot or a tool that would make it so that enemies wouldn't see OJs or white swords or a way to disable emergency waypoints things like that.

Maybe give us FOBs and let us upgrade those so an offensive commander could set one up and then upgrade it so an offensive attempt would be much much easier. Perhaps let those have EWPs too.

Maybe just give us a nuclear option to completely reset one objective of our choice on a map if certain conditions are met. Put it in the middle of the map like the old orb stuff so there's a reason for people to learn how to fight without siege.

Anything to speed up the pace of the game and make it more action oriented and combat focused and less tedious and siege oriented.

Good offensive tools would be more effective. Not necessarily what you noted, but those might be good as well.

The central event in desert was good except for the lag and d/c infusing laser. Having an event that triggers walls and doors to take damage automatically would be good.

[Euryon.9248]

@"Hiraldo.7954" said:Ya'll are completely missing the point of OP's post it seems.

• Objectives are currently too easy to defend
• The current system actively discourages fighting, causing people to turtle in upgraded objectives
• Objectives upgrade themselves during off-hours, making playing in prime timezones an uphill battle
• Siege Wars 2 is boring for the vast majority of players involved, gameplay largely consists of pressing 1-2 buttons on siege or doing nothing at all and being hit by arrowcarts or mortars or whatever while you wait for something to happen
• It's current year, nobody really cares about karmatraining, interesting and dynamic mass-combat is what WvW has always been about but a lot of changes over the years have greatly detracted from this and made the game mode duller

OP isn't asking to be able to quickly and easily take whatever objectives he chooses just because he shows up and knocks, he wants both defending and attacking to be more dynamic, involving, and skill-based than it currently is. Let's be honest, PPT doesn't matter anymore, the rewards for "winning" are negligible, the reward for playing WvW is the gameplay itself. Saving a keep from an enemy blob is fun. Taking a keep from an enemy blob is fun. Winning a close fight is fun. Losing a close fight is fun. Bottom line, FIGHTING is fun, especially if it's close. Therefore, designing a system that encourages and enables evenly matched, varied, skill based, and frequent fights will make the game mode more fun.

snipped for space

agreed on almost all points. The OP for the thread is too extreme, but right now it is too easy to stymie a force indefinitely in a T3 with 3-5 players. Between serial disablers, invulns, and shield gens, you could spend forever doing almost zero damage, a large part of it just standing around waiting for disablers/invulns to wear off. That is incredibly boring, and I have left groups who insist on trying to take an even lightly defended T3 keep because I know they never will succeed. It's a waste of time.

Many is the time I've looked at the map on Friday before reset and seen opponents who have held multiple T3 keeps since the previous reset or at least 5+ days. That alone should tell you that it's too easy to defend.

Further, because defense is so OP right now, there is NO motivation for the 40 people defending to come out and fight your 30-man blob, even if they outnumber you, because hiding behind siege is too easy. OP siege kills evenly-matched open field fights for a large segment of the wvw population (saving dedicated fight guilds who will pretty much fight anyone anytime).

But small changes, not big ones: tighter restrictions on number of siege placements for a given area or keep (esp shield gens), get rid of siege disablers, get rid of (or reduce the duration) of invuln, tone down the damage or aoe of ACs, etc. Nerf siege, don't kill it.

[Skynet.7201]

It was tl'dr but you had me at lowering objective structure health (gate/walls). I'd love to see the day when there will be less bunkering inside an objective humping siege.

[Substance E.4852]

Literally the only problem is Arrow Carts.

Everything else is solved by their weakening or outright removal.-Doors become easier to assault.-Enemies actually have to leave the walls, or get up on them, to kill the catas.-Fighting inside a place like inner Bay stops becoming a meat grinder when there isn't a 1k+ death zone from a single cart that costs 30 supply.

[Aridon.8362]

The worst thing that happened was the introduction to tier 3 walls, it takes like 30 min to take a t3 keep, more if you consider arrow carts mortars and cannons lol. back then it wasn't that difficult. I also wouldn't mind a graphics overhaul where they improve the graphics and texture quality of the environment in the alpine borderlands.