who the hell are dungeons tuned for?

[Dadnir.5038]

@thrag.9740 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Respect man!

I used to do AC (3 paths), CM (3 path), TA (2 path), SE (2 path), CoF (1path) and CoE (3 path) in under 4 hours every day and usually I'd do some extra with 2 paths of HotW. Having the patience to go througth arah in a 3-4 hour run... Wow I didn't do that since the very early days of GW2. You really got all my respect here (and this is not sarcastic, I don't think I'd have the gut to suffer this now).

no no no sorry, you misunderstand me. It was a raid wing 1234, so vale guardian through deimos, although realistically arah p 1234 might take just as long nowadays.

Oh I see! Well, at least there should be no longer the progression bugs in arah nowaday, you know when the quest stopped at Lupi or when dwayna was stuck in invisibility. I'd hang myself if I had to go back in 2013 and go throught arah P4 again to find that either Lupi or dwayna bug...

[Fluffball.8307]

@"Vayne.8563" said:TA is a tough dungeon because of the amount of condition damage, and because people insist on running instead of killing. Running is harder for some people than others. If you killed your way through and took your time it would be a lot easier. That's how I did it the last time, because I was with a group of newbies.

Ya, skipping in TA is by far the hardest of any dungeon other than Arah. That's why when I lead packs of newbies through I just say "bring condi removal, you can rally off the poison flowers" and then let them finish the dungeon easily on their own with no input from me. The skips are like 10 enemies, so it's WAY more time efficient for new players to just easily kill them rather than have people piecemeal die a hundred times trying to sneak by.

Edit: I do explain meta tactics after they figure things out on their own, just as an FYI.

[wanya.1697]

I think the main problem of dungeons are the missings tells at many points when something big will hit youas they are old content which unfortunately was never updated to the new standard as we have in raids with growing red circles and suchyou really need to bite the dust more often and to somehow memories what to doand than there is Arah probably the stupidest of all dungeons where the mobs on the way to the boss take so much longer to kill as the bossesunless you stealth and ignore them completly ...

[Astralporing.1957]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Respect man!

I used to do AC (3 paths), CM (3 path), TA (2 path), SE (2 path), CoF (1path) and CoE (3 path) in under 4 hours every day and usually I'd do some extra with 2 paths of HotW. Having the patience to go througth arah in a 3-4 hour run... Wow I didn't do that since the very early days of GW2. You really got all my respect here (and this is not sarcastic, I don't think I'd have the gut to suffer this now).

no no no sorry, you misunderstand me. It was a raid wing 1234, so vale guardian through deimos, although realistically arah p 1234 might take just as long nowadays.

Oh I see! Well, at least there should be no longer the progression bugs in arah nowaday, you know when the quest stopped at Lupi or when dwayna was stuck in invisibility. I'd hang myself if I had to go back in 2013 and go throught arah P4 again to find that either Lupi or dwayna bug...As far as i know, the second bug was still sometimes appearing when they axed the dungeons, so i bet it's still there.

[Zaraki.5784]

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:so if dungeons are tuned just fine then why does no one do them anymore? Im all for a challenge but this is ridiculous. Actually they are leveling dungeons because they do scale you down. If I want a challenge I will do T4 fractals or raids. This is a dungeon meant for level 55 players so why is it this ridiculous?

Because:1) After doing them in the past they have become extremely boring to do over and over again.2) They offer little rewards compared to other sources (Fracts, raids, generic farms)

[reapex.8546]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

Sure, it just requires 500 tokens, and costs 100 mystic coins to craft, plus 100 Lodestones, and a few more things. Go ahead! And of those only about half of them will yield more profit (using current sell price not buy - which means you might not make it).

The difference is you need a lot more money/materials to (maybe) have a marginal gain, while in the previous system you had a net gain of 6 gold comparing the most profitable run for the current state with what you'd get in the old system. And for that you'll need to play ~2 hours (involves doing all of arah explorable plus all AC). If you just do one dungeon or even all paths of a single dungeon then you're losing more and the difference in tokens is even less.

[Astralporing.1957]

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

Yes, but not to that degree.

[Nephalem.8921]

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

You need 800 tokens minimum to get maybe 1g out of forge. Even the most valuable dungeon recipes dropped a lot since ascended multi stat accessories are so easy to get now.You need to have an organized speed running group and recipes just to be on par with some mindless half afk open world farms.

[reapex.8546]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

Sure, it just requires 500 tokens, and costs 100 mystic coins to craft, plus 100 Lodestones, and a few more things. Go ahead! And of those only about half of them will yield more profit (using current sell price not buy - which means you might not make it).

The difference is you need a lot more money/materials to (maybe) have a marginal gain, while in the previous system you had a net gain of 6 gold comparing the most profitable run for the current state with what you'd get in the old system. And for that you'll need to play ~2 hours (involves doing all of arah explorable plus all AC). If you just do one dungeon or even all paths of a single dungeon then you're losing more and the difference in tokens is even less.

You don't need mystic coins or lodestones to do mystic forging. I'm not sure what items you're trying to make but if you want to lose money by using Mystic Coins and Lodestones, go for it. I choose not to lose money when I forge.

[reikken.4961]

people saying the rewards are bad are wrong. The 5g is only a tiny part of what you get from dungeon running.but you have to actually speed run them for it to compare favorably to meta farming, which is much more faceroll

[ReaverKane.7598]

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Deeyra.1476 said:

@"Dabrixmgp.4758" said:

In total you'd get 6.34 more gold from dungeons than nowadays, but 310 less tokens.Can those 310 tokens make up for 6.34g? Not likely, unless you had the luck of dropping recipes for the more in-demand dungeon accessories, which is highly conditional.You can turn tokens into money via the mystic forge.

Sure, it just requires 500 tokens, and costs 100 mystic coins to craft, plus 100 Lodestones, and a few more things. Go ahead! And of those only about half of them will yield more profit (using current sell price not buy - which means you might not make it).

The difference is you need a lot more money/materials to (maybe) have a marginal gain, while in the previous system you had a net gain of 6 gold comparing the most profitable run for the current state with what you'd get in the old system. And for that you'll need to play ~2 hours (involves doing all of arah explorable plus all AC). If you just do one dungeon or even all paths of a single dungeon then you're losing more and the difference in tokens is even less.

You don't need mystic coins or lodestones to do mystic forging. I'm not sure what items you're trying to make but if you want to lose money by using Mystic Coins and Lodestones, go for it. I choose not to lose money when I forge.

Ok, you lost me... What items do you make with mystic forge then? Because if you're tossing dungeon exotics in there, that's actually wasteful.The only marginally profitable items you do with dungeon tokens on the mystic forge are the "unique weapons" like Foefire's Power, Mjolnir, Feathers of Dwayna, etc.

@reikken.4961 said:people saying the rewards are bad are wrong. The 5g is only a tiny part of what you get from dungeon running.but you have to actually speed run them for it to compare favorably to meta farming, which is much more facerollBut the current rewards are sub-par to the old rewards, and even to fractal rewards. Which is the point of the thread, which was derailed a bit by people denying simple facts.The only favourable aspect of the current system (which is a rollback, actually) is that now you can farm the same path over and over and still get a relatively decent reward (20 tokens in the current system vs 0 on the previous iteration). This of course is a step back on their philosophy for dungeons, since they actually had nerfed the repeat rewards in favour of one-time rewards to discourage farming the same path (like people used to farm the 5 m runs of COF1). Even then unless your goal is to get gifts or dungeon runes, or unlocking skins for collections. The liquid gold reward is still unfavourable, since if you do the same path on repeat you need at least 3 repeats plus the first daily reward (4 runs total) to get the same liquid gold reward you'd get from just doing the same path 1 time on the previous system. You'll end up with 100 tokens more.But you're still losing, since you're taking 4 times longer to get a 100 token profit (discounting drops, since those are inconsistent, and since the loot tables didn't change, you can kinda disregard those). In the time you're repeating the same thing 3 other times, you could be doing a separate path, which simply brings you back to my previous demonstration.

SO TLDR: Dungeons are not rewarding enough to merit a healthy population, which i why less people do them, less people know how to do them efficiently, which leads to people like the OP claiming they're too tough.

[ugrakarma.9416]

theyre toned for pre-hot core specs. if u pick up any PoF spam fest specs, like scourge, u can faceroll it.

[yLoon.5289]

I miss the good old dungeon......but no1 wanna play it anymore =(Veteran players have done it with vanilla build with little effort hahahahNow with HoT and PoF build, these dungeons is just like child play! lolTo OP, just gitgood lol

[dace.8019]

Although the Dungeon team is gone for years, I nurture a small hope that somehow, someday, ANet takes all the dungeon paths - fixing and retuning as they go - and incorporate them into the FotM. Not as part of the core FotM levels, but as their own subcategory.

Would really flesh out the FotM for people who want to focus on them (but have no real reason to be there once their dailies are done) and gives ANet a good excuse to fix some great but flawed content.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:theyre toned for pre-hot core specs. if u pick up any PoF spam fest specs, like scourge, u can faceroll it.

They were just as easy with core specs, especially after ascended gear. They were tuned for launch specs. And even then most of them were nerfed to become easy. Dungeons were pretty hard at launch.I mean i had wayyy more trouble doing AC P1 just after launch than i had doing TO T4 when it came out.> @dace.8019 said:

Although the Dungeon team is gone for years, I nurture a small hope that somehow, someday, ANet takes all the dungeon paths - fixing and retuning as they go - and incorporate them into the FotM. Not as part of the core FotM levels, but as their own subcategory.

Would really flesh out the FotM for people who want to focus on them (but have no real reason to be there once their dailies are done) and gives ANet a good excuse to fix some great but flawed content.

Dungeons are too big for fractals, and even then, your suggestion is the same thing as keeping them out of fractals, but just reworking them as dungeons. I doubt they'll ever touch Dungeons ever again.Arena Net has never been big on acknowledging and fixing past mistakes (look at Revenant), and fixing dungeons would mean admit a whole lot of wrong decisions with that content (mainly the nerfs they got).

[Unknown.3976]

Dungeons are where thieves excel. Probably the only place where stealth comes in handy, you just skip thru much of dungeon content. It's the main reason why fractals are designed the way they are, short and sweet with no content skipping.

Anyway, Dungeons are not updated in eons, it's an archaic aspect of the game.. Dev abandoned it years ago. Fractals is where they are spending their efforts on.

[OriOri.8724]

Dungeons are in a very weird state balance wise. The fights are designed around mechanics to a huge degree, which is awesome, but if you don't know the mechanics then the fight get significantly harder. If you do know the mechanics, then many dungeon paths are actually soloable, and in a competent group, you can DPS the bosses down so quickly that the mechanics never even surface in the first place

[Talindra.4958]

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:No wonder no one does dungeons any more in this game. Trying to do Twilight Arbor on my Warrior cause I like the skins from there and Im setting new records for being downed. I dont even die this much doing Fractals. Hell in just this run, that isnt even over yet, I have died more than I died all week doing daily fractals. I got downed on pretty much every trash pack. Need to run back? Thats nice the poison flowers of death have respawned so now you are dead again. The first spider boss puts up red circles that I didnt even have time to react to before I was downed. So far wiped 4 times on last boss and half the group left so I proly not even gonna finish the thing. Also so far dont have any drops from here so can someone please tell me who came up with the genius idea to use ultra murder mode on a dungeon that doesnt even guarantee you get anything from doing it?

Dungeon was really fun.. Missed those days........

[reapex.8546]

@Talindra.4958 said:

@Dabrixmgp.4758 said:No wonder no one does dungeons any more in this game. Trying to do Twilight Arbor on my Warrior cause I like the skins from there and Im setting new records for being downed. I dont even die this much doing Fractals. Hell in just this run, that isnt even over yet, I have died more than I died all week doing daily fractals. I got downed on pretty much every trash pack. Need to run back? Thats nice the poison flowers of death have respawned so now you are dead again. The first spider boss puts up red circles that I didnt even have time to react to before I was downed. So far wiped 4 times on last boss and half the group left so I proly not even gonna finish the thing. Also so far dont have any drops from here so can someone please tell me who came up with the genius idea to use ultra murder mode on a dungeon that doesnt even guarantee you get anything from doing it?

Dungeon was really fun.. Missed those days........

I still do them sometimes :D

[veelad.1528]

lmao ur good point turned to everyone talking about how good they're completely going over their head that this is true dungeons are way harder than fractals and they weren't suppose to feel that way. NEW players shouldn't have that experience it also makes new players feel like this game has 0 content when u click on dungeons and theres only that selection and 0 people running them..

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

I've been doing Twilight Arbor with just myself and two guildies lately, because one of them wanted to get some gear from it. Even with just three of us, it's quite easy to complete the normal paths, to the point where we feel no need to bother trying to invite others to join us. Perhaps it's simply an unfamiliarity with the dungeon's mechanics that is causing you issues, but once you know how to deal with each encounter, it isn't so bad. I certainly can't imagine a 5 player group having much trouble in TA these days, unless you are doing the Aether Path, which is by design more difficult and requires more coordination than the other two.

Still, perhaps the point of them not being new player friendly is a good one to bring up though. If we are considering dungeons as content for leveling players, then I can see how someone going into them for the first time might indeed feel a tad bit overwhelmed, especially with a lack of players doing the content, and the jarring shift between open world and dungeon play. However, ANet has shown no interest in spending development time on dungeons (in fact, they've outright stated their lack of intention to develop on them anymore), so I doubt you'll see any changes.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

Double post (accidental).

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Oglaf.1074 said:To me the solution to make dungeons popular again seems so painfully obvious that I don’t understand why Anet haven’t done it already:

Add a new Ascended tier of dungeon arms and armour - at a higher cost in tokens, naturally.

Boom, people would want to do dungeons again.

I don't think that people wanting to play content because rewards, rather than a mix of reward and fun is necessarily good for the game.

I wouldnt mind more ways to get ascended gear, but it will cheapen the effort involved with getting ascended gear to considerably less.

[Oglaf.1074]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:To me the solution to make dungeons popular again seems so painfully obvious that I don’t understand why Anet haven’t done it already:

Add a new Ascended tier of dungeon arms and armour - at a higher cost in tokens, naturally.

Boom, people would want to do dungeons again.

I don't think that people wanting to play content because rewards, rather than a mix of reward and fun is necessarily good for the game.

I wouldnt mind more ways to get ascended gear, but it will cheapen the effort involved with getting ascended gear to considerably less.

No it wouldn't if they adjusted the token cost approriately.