Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Vault Girl.6792]

I really hope anet reconsiders their decision on accepting appeals. How can they be 100% sure everyone they banned are cheaters (while a lot of people are sure they are not)?

[Pimpology.6234]

@aandiarie.7195 said:I thought anet said you can use a thing for stuff that doesn't give you an advantage. O_O :open_mouth:

Both taco and ARC DPS give advantages, but anet suggested they were okay in all the forum posts i've seen about the issue.

[Pimpology.6234]

@RoseofGilead.8907 said:

@Last Crysis.1934 said:

Taco doesn't even have a DPS meter, as far as I know. It's just an overlay to help out with achievements and similar things.

boom advantage right there

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Towelie.9504" said:Technically speaking, how about them attempting to actually fix their spaghetti code and vulnerabilities.

This doesn't address the long term issue: there is no client/server gaming system that is without vulnerabilities. Studios have spoken how there's a sort of arms race to try to deal with this. It's much easier for hackers to adapt their own quick & dirty code than it is for any company to update theirs.

Worse, this doesn't address the short-term issue of people using hacks today.

Oh a program is reading and writing directly from memory? Like there isn't fixes to exploits that do that which haven't existed for the past 10 years.Each time a hole is plugged, hackers find a new one.

Otherwise, like others have said, why not first warn players which are using "not allowed" third party software which likely would've resulted in those 1600~ish players being banned to probably a few hundred.Warning players just makes it easier for hackers to rewrite their code to avoid getting caught.

And lastly, ArenaNet needs to clearly state what is considered not allowed and allowed. Their own vagueness and ambiguity is largely to blame for this in the first place.

• DPS Meters = OK or not OK?
• Equipment inspectors = OK or not OK?
• Boss raid timers = OK or not OK?
• SPEED HACKS = OK or not OK?
• etc etc

They don't need to say anything except, "use at your own risk." If you don't want the risk, don't use any 3rd party software. Still we already know how they feel about every single one of the examples you've listed:

• DPS meters? fine, as long as it only makes use of data already available to the client
• Equipment inspectors? never ok, because they do not make use of data already available to the client
• Boss raid timers? always ok, since that appears on the wiki.
• Speed hacks? do you seriously think that could ever be possibly considered okay?
• etc etc? don't use it if you're worried.

If they had even put forth a minute of effort into defining rules more clearly a lot of this would be avoided.

It would have exacerbated the problem by making it easier for hackers, too.

As it stands today, a lot of people got banned for using third party software and no one has any clue of what that third party software was even doing to get them banned.I don't believe that most of the 1600 have "no clue" about what they were doing wrong. For example, there was a (since-removed) thread about a guy blaming ANet for ruining his raid, because the leader got suspended. The thing is: they all knew that leader was using a gear check program and they all knew it was wrong.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Twoodi.5849 said:I don't mind any ANET devs looking into my case and if i am a liar posting it here, I am 100% certain i have not knowingly done anything wrong.

No one is calling you a liar. It's just that ANet doesn't care whether you knowingly did something wrong or not in this case.According to their detection algorithms you did and that's all that matters.

They also have the ability to watch what we're doing in game... :ninja:

[Towelie.9504]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Towelie.9504" said:Technically speaking, how about them attempting to actually fix their spaghetti code and vulnerabilities.

This doesn't address the long term issue: there is no client/server gaming system that is without vulnerabilities. Studios have spoken how there's a sort of arms race to try to deal with this. It's much easier for hackers to adapt their own quick & dirty code than it is for any company to update theirs.

Worse, this doesn't address the short-term issue of people using hacks today.

Oh a program is reading and writing directly from memory? Like there isn't fixes to exploits that do that which haven't existed for the past 10 years.Each time a hole is plugged, hackers find a new one.

Otherwise, like others have said, why not first warn players which are using "not allowed" third party software which likely would've resulted in those 1600~ish players being banned to probably a few hundred.Warning players just makes it easier for hackers to rewrite their code to avoid getting caught.

And lastly, ArenaNet needs to

clearly

state what is considered not allowed and allowed. Their own vagueness and ambiguity is largely to blame for this in the first place.

• DPS Meters = OK or not OK?
• Equipment inspectors = OK or not OK?
• Boss raid timers = OK or not OK?
• SPEED HACKS = OK or not OK?
• etc etc

They don't need to say anything except, "use at your own risk." If you don't want the risk, don't use

any

3rd party software. Still we already know how they feel about every single one of the examples you've listed:

• DPS meters? fine, as long as it only makes use of data already available to the client
• Equipment inspectors? never ok, because they do not make use of data already available to the client
• Boss raid timers? always ok, since that appears on the wiki.
• Speed hacks? do you seriously think that could ever be possibly considered okay?
• etc etc? don't use it if you're worried.

If they had even put forth a minute of effort into defining rules more clearly a lot of this would be avoided.

It would have exacerbated the problem by making it easier for hackers, too.

As it stands today, a lot of people got banned for using third party software and no one has any clue of what that third party software was even doing to get them banned.I don't believe that

most

of the 1600 have "no clue" about what they were doing wrong. For example, there was a (since-removed) thread about a guy blaming ANet for ruining his raid, because the leader got suspended. The thing is: they all knew that leader was using a gear check program and they all knew it was wrong.

The fact is ArenaNet has no defined rules of what's allowed third party software or not, or the functions they could provide. Use as your own risk is a terrible way to say "oh well this could be not allowed, and we'll change our mind anytime about that without even telling you until you get banned."

I am sure a LOT and if not MOST of those 1600 don't exactly understand what software actually got them banned. In fact none of us know, because ArenaNet isn't telling anyone it so we can just guess that apparently all third party tools aren't allowed now despite them in the past actually even saying ArcDPS was ok.

And banning players does what to prevent them from changing their method to hide from ArenaNet's 3rd party inspection software? Warning/Banning yields the same response in that degree.

If ArenaNet actually came out and defined what are third party software allowed to do and not allowed to do this entire matter wouldn't exist. Saying "Oh well you can get an advantage" is extremely vague and subjective. A Boss Timer overlay in-game provides me an advantage over someone who has to tab down and check a website, does this warrant someone to get banned?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Pimpology.6234 said:

@RoseofGilead.8907 said:

@"Last Crysis.1934" said:

Taco doesn't even have a DPS meter, as far as I know. It's just an overlay to help out with achievements and similar things.

boom

advantage

right there

People are reading too much into the "no advantage" phrasing. Taken to that extreme, all sorts of things are advantageous: using a gaming mouse, two monitors, larger monitors, solid state drives, practicing rotations, being on comms with allies, etc.

There's nothing wrong with making the game easier to play. What ANet is concerned with is when people cross the line from "making things easier" to "letting software do stuff for you". Overlays are fine because you still have to execute the mechanics, jumps, etc. But a hack that makes you 0.1% faster isn't, because it does something that no one else could do without the hack.

[Towelie.9504]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Pimpology.6234 said:

@RoseofGilead.8907 said:

@"Last Crysis.1934" said:

Taco doesn't even have a DPS meter, as far as I know. It's just an overlay to help out with achievements and similar things.

boom

advantage

right there

People are reading too much into the "no advantage" phrasing. Taken to that extreme, all sorts of things are advantageous: using a gaming mouse, two monitors, larger monitors, solid state drives, practicing rotations, being on comms with allies, etc.

There's nothing wrong with making the game easier to play. What ANet is concerned with is when people cross the line from "making things easier" to "letting software do stuff for you". Overlays are fine because you still have to execute the mechanics, jumps, etc. But a hack that makes you 0.1% faster isn't, because it does something that no one else could do without the hack.

It's very clear that the 1600 people banned weren't only speed hackers and soforth. In fact, knowing ArenaNet's failure to actually ban those kind of hackers in the past, it's likely they actually weren't banned.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Towelie.9504" said:The fact is ArenaNet has no defined rules of what's allowed third party software or not, or the functions they could provide. Use as your own risk is a terrible way to say "oh well this could be not allowed, and we'll change our mind anytime about that without even telling you until you get banned."

I am sure a LOT and if not MOST of those 1600 don't exactly understand what software actually got them banned. In fact none of us know, because ArenaNet isn't telling anyone it so we can just guess that apparently all third party tools aren't allowed now despite them in the past actually even saying ArcDPS was ok.

You might want to re-read your response again. What has ANet changed their mind about? Why should ANet make it easier for hackers to write their code?We cannot reasonably guess that ArcDPS is the issue because by a reasonable guess, far far more than 1600 people use it (or TACO); if that was the issue, there would be more suspensions or ANet would have chosen some other course of action.

And banning players does what to prevent them from changing their method to hide from ArenaNet's 3rd party inspection software? Warning/Banning yields the same response in that degree.They'd have to know how they were caught. Suspending a bunch of people at the same time for a variety of reasons obscures that, as does, you know, not telling people exactly what it was they got caught doing.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Feeh.1720 said:Thanks anet for ending all meaning of being a guild and ban people for selling gold without even investigating this

I am failing to understand your point.. what has all meaning of being a guild got to do with banning players that have been caught and banned for doing something that is not permitted???

Do you think they just pluck out names randomly from a Black Lion Chest and ban them willy nilly.. something has triggered a security flag and they have acted on it.. if you think you or someone you know has been wrongly banned, put in a ticket and fight your corners.

[Towelie.9504]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Towelie.9504" said:The fact is ArenaNet has no defined rules of what's allowed third party software or not, or the functions they could provide. Use as your own risk is a terrible way to say "oh well this could be not allowed, and we'll change our mind anytime about that without even telling you until you get banned."

I am sure a LOT and if not MOST of those 1600 don't exactly understand

what

software actually got them banned. In fact none of us know, because ArenaNet isn't telling anyone it so we can just guess that apparently all third party tools aren't allowed now despite them in the past actually even saying ArcDPS was ok.

You might want to re-read your response again. What has ANet changed their mind about? Why should ANet make it easier for hackers to write their code?We cannot reasonably guess that ArcDPS is the issue because by a reasonable guess, far far more than 1600 people use it (or TACO); if that was the issue, there would be more suspensions or ANet would have chosen some other course of action.

And banning players does what to prevent them from changing their method to hide from ArenaNet's 3rd party inspection software? Warning/Banning yields the same response in that degree.They'd have to know how they were caught. Suspending a bunch of people at the same time for a variety of reasons obscures that, as does, you know, not telling people exactly what it was they got caught doing.

I can absolutely guarantee you not all of those 1600 banned players were speed/teleport hackers. A lot banned posting here even say they only used ArcDPS and TACO

[RoseofGilead.8907]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@Last Crysis.1934 said:This is a joyous day! I don't think we should have tac0, if A-Net wanted us to have a tactical overlay they would give us one. This will help get rid of those elitist raid players too. I am tired of seeing casual players getting kicked from raids because they meet the dps meter on tac0. Th A-net you made my day!!!☺

Didn't know taco did this, if it did then I am so glad its gone!

It doesn't do that. There's no DPS meter for taco.

[Healix.5819]

@"Towelie.9504" said:So when arenanet says minimum 6 months, what they really mean is 6 months or permanent? If so, that's so stupidly worded it may as well not even say minimum.

They mean what they said, that the suspension will last "at least" 6 months. They probably said "at least" because they do stack suspensions, so if someone was already suspended, they'd now be 6 months + X days. Back in 2015, this would have been a permanent suspension, but they don't do that anymore. You can read more about this on the old forums.

[Ashen.2907]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:What if they triggered false positives in some cases?Out of 1600 accounts, how many false positives do you think there were? And how many people are claiming that they received a false positive?In every case, even when ANet made a big mistake (when people first learned to speed gather using mounts), false positives were rare, relative to the totals.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:But Gaile said they are not accepting appealsThey have made that statement alongside every announcement of a global wave of suspensions/bans. It's always been the case that they are will to consider a review of some of the cases.

I don't know why say it; it seems counterproductive to me. Maybe it's a legal thing?

@Vault Girl.6792 said:There seem to be a lot of people (including me) who used arcdps only, which does not provide any advantage, and got suspended. Why are you so sure these bans aren't just false positives?Because history tells us that the vast majority of suspensions are legit. That far more people say they have been falsely accused than false positives.(I don't mean that I think ANet cannot make mistakes. I mean that I'm not willing to take someone's word at face value about this. There are just way too many people who double down on their claims of persecution, mistakes, or whatever... and few of them turn out to be.)

I wonder if the announcement that there will be no appeals is to discourage those who know they are guilty from clogging up the service queues.

[Cifrer.6013]

@"Towelie.9504" said:

If ArenaNet actually came out and defined what are third party software allowed to do and not allowed to do this entire matter wouldn't exist. Saying "Oh well you can get an advantage" is extremely vague and subjective.

From: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

Section 8 is: 8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING ArenaNetYou acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of ArenaNet, do any of the following:

© Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

Looks relatively clear to me. No third party software unless you personally have a written and signed letter of consent from ArenaNet.

Anyone thinking to argue this point by saying "they said "x" software is ok to use...well you're just flat out wrong. If they didn't update the ELUA to show that, it doesn't matter who said what.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Cifrer.6013" said:© Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

Looks relatively clear to me. No third party software unless you personally have a written and signed letter of consent from ArenaNet.

Not every 3rd party app "changes or modifies" operation of the game. For example, TACO does not. For example, GW2 Timer Overlay does not.In the case of ArcDPS, they developer sought out (and received) consent.

[andybear.1753]

Add one more to the list of people banned that were not violating anything, or would even know how to. No other software installed that interacts with guild wars 2 in any way shape or form. Still, my son's account got banned. I think they made some mistakes.

[Talindra.4958]

In the time like this.. we need to be patience and help arena net to get full investigation done. We know there are many ppl abusing the game taking advantages of other players. Something needs to be done.. If you have been banned wrongfully, just send a ticket and wait .. anet will get to the bottom of this ..

[Feeh.1720]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@"Feeh.1720" said:Thanks anet for ending all meaning of being a guild and ban people for selling gold without even investigating this

I am failing to understand your point.. what has all meaning of being a guild got to do with banning players that have been caught and banned for doing something that is not permitted???

Do you think they just pluck out names randomly from a Black Lion Chest and ban them willy nilly.. something has triggered a security flag and they have acted on it.. if you think you or someone you know has been wrongly banned, put in a ticket and fight your corners.

People in my guild were banned for helping others with gold for xfer ... now everyone is afraid to continue helping and also be banned

My friend was banned for buying gold because I send 1000G for him to make the transfer he stayed two weeks to get the account back and Anet say "do not do it anymore"...now with that number, how long will it take to read respond and analyze cases ? and how are we going to make sure we continue to help members and they will ban us too, and will we not be able to play for months ?

[Crinn.7864]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:What if they triggered false positives in some cases?Out of 1600 accounts, how many false positives do you think there were? And how many people are claiming that they received a false positive?In every case, even when ANet made a big mistake (when people first learned to speed gather using mounts), false positives were rare, relative to the totals.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:But Gaile said they are not accepting appealsThey have made that statement alongside every announcement of a global wave of suspensions/bans. It's always been the case that they are will to consider a review of some of the cases.

I don't know why say it; it seems counterproductive to me. Maybe it's a legal thing?

@Vault Girl.6792 said:There seem to be a lot of people (including me) who used arcdps only, which does not provide any advantage, and got suspended. Why are you so sure these bans aren't just false positives?Because history tells us that the vast majority of suspensions are legit. That far more people say they have been falsely accused than false positives.(I don't mean that I think ANet cannot make mistakes. I mean that I'm not willing to take someone's word at face value about this. There are just way too many people who double down on their claims of persecution, mistakes, or whatever... and few of them turn out to be.)

I wonder if the announcement that there will be no appeals is to discourage those who know they are guilty from clogging up the service queues.

Alost certainly. If they didn't say that there would be no appeals, you can bet that all 1583 of the banned players would file a appeal, after all since they've already been banned they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Ashen.2907]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:What if they triggered false positives in some cases?Out of 1600 accounts, how many false positives do you think there were? And how many people are claiming that they received a false positive?In every case, even when ANet made a big mistake (when people first learned to speed gather using mounts), false positives were rare, relative to the totals.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:But Gaile said they are not accepting appealsThey have made that statement alongside every announcement of a global wave of suspensions/bans. It's always been the case that they are will to consider a review of some of the cases.

I don't know why say it; it seems counterproductive to me. Maybe it's a legal thing?

@Vault Girl.6792 said:There seem to be a lot of people (including me) who used arcdps only, which does not provide any advantage, and got suspended. Why are you so sure these bans aren't just false positives?Because history tells us that the vast majority of suspensions are legit. That far more people say they have been falsely accused than false positives.(I don't mean that I think ANet cannot make mistakes. I mean that I'm not willing to take someone's word at face value about this. There are just way too many people who double down on their claims of persecution, mistakes, or whatever... and few of them turn out to be.)

I wonder if the announcement that there will be no appeals is to discourage those who know they are guilty from clogging up the service queues.

Alost certainly. If they didn't say that there would be no appeals, you can bet that all 1583 of the banned players would file a appeal, after all since they've already been banned they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

My thought as well.

[Cifrer.6013]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Cifrer.6013" said:©

Use

, or provide others with,

any software related to the Game

, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”)

or

software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

Looks relatively clear to me. No third party software unless you personally have a written and signed letter of consent from ArenaNet.

Not every 3rd party app "changes or modifies" operation of the game. For example, TACO does not. For example, GW2 Timer Overlay does not.In the case of ArcDPS, they developer sought out (and received) consent.

It doesn't say only software that "changes or modifies". I put the relevant parts in bold. © Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;

Whether the developer of ArcDPS received consent to create and use their software doesn't change the fact that those of us who have not received this specific permission aren't technically allowed to use it. If they didn't consider it important enough to update the EULA about it, it might as well never have happened.

I'm not saying that Anet is infallible. I'm sure that there are people who were banned incorrectly. Hopefully they'll be able to get that sorted somehow.

[OriOri.8724]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in this thread.

Hi Gaile, I know that you aren't at liberty to say which third party programs were the reason behind the bans. However, there have been several third party addons that the devs have known about, and allowed, for years with no issues. Yes, they've always been in that twilight zone of "technically this isn't allowed, and you could be banned for it", but with years going on with no issues with some addons, to then turn around and start banning people for using it is a great way to alienate your playerbase.

Now, granted, OP and others banned could be flat out lying about the addons they used, and were using others (and indeed this seems to be the case more often than not when players of any game make a thread complaining about being banned "out of the blue"), but its not a great idea to gamble your account on that assumption.

I think I speak for a lot of players when I say that we would appreciate it so much if Anet would come out and make an official statement on the matter for some of teh popular third party addons. Even something as simple as "X addon is approved in its current state, and no action will be taken against accounts using X addon in this current state before an announcement to the contrary is made." or "Y functionality is something we don't want in this game, and any addon that offers it is definitively not allowed, period. And you should expect to eventually be banned for using such an addon in the future".

Don't leave players guessing with their accounts like this. Its fairly unprofessional, and it doesn't feel good as a player, and I don't even use addons, not even TaCo.

[Linken.6345]

@Feeh.1720 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@Feeh.1720 said:Thanks anet for ending all meaning of being a guild and ban people for selling gold without even investigating this

I am failing to understand your point.. what has all meaning of being a guild got to do with banning players that have been caught and banned for doing something that is not permitted???

Do you think they just pluck out names randomly from a Black Lion Chest and ban them willy nilly.. something has triggered a security flag and they have acted on it.. if you think you or someone you know has been wrongly banned, put in a ticket and fight your corners.

People in my guild were banned for helping others with gold for xfer ... now everyone is afraid to continue helping and also be banned

My friend was banned for buying gold because I send 1000G for him to make the transfer he stayed two weeks to get the account back and Anet say "do not do it anymore"...now with that number, how long will it take to read respond and analyze cases ? and how are we going to make sure we continue to help members and they will ban us too, and will we not be able to play for months ?

If it was the 1000 gold you sent him you would have been banned aswell.

[Obtena.7952]

@SaMaeL.7412 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, it's been VERY clear, using 3rd party programs is at the PLAYER'S risk. As I can remember, even if Anet DID flag some programs as useable, that doesn't remove the risk of using those programs for the player; Anet is not going to validate every 3rd party thing when they probably aren't really keen on players using that software in the first place. Why would they take such a strong stance on it if they weren't? If something changed in any 3rd party thing that Anet didn't like, you're going to get slammed hard. Any game that DOESN'T send that message is just ripe for hackers and cheaters to find and poke holes in it anyway they can. Anet can't allow that to happen. A strong message must be sent.

I'm not even sure what programs got these people banned, so I'm not going to assume it was the one you are referencing as getting the thumbs up ... it doesn't really matter. People took a risk ... now they got the heavy ban hammer. I've YET to play a game that doesn't take 3rd party software as seriously as Anet has here.

Dude u are not even making sense... Did u even read what u wrote???

Anet GM's have said taco and arcdps are safe to use.. If anet flagged some programs as usable then those programs are risk free and they have no right to ban players for using them. If you don't want people to use 3rd party programs then don't accept any as usable. simple as that

and when did they say that? how do you know the devs of those programs didn't change anything since? How does what Anet said absolve you of the risk of using 3rs party software? Short answer ... it doesn't.

No, I'm making LOTS of sense. I have yet to be banned for 3rs party software ... I will give you ONE chance to guess why.