Automated Trading // possible? // legal?!

[Matick.4132]

Hi folks,

I just got into trading a bit more, crafting stuff, getting more into the depth of Tyria.So over the last few days I've stumbled upon something odd, which really feels kinda like 'automated trading'.

On some items (one of it was one of the finest cups of 'light roasted coffee' you can get in Amnoon ^^) there was this thing:The top 2 were a 18x pack and a 1x pack of coffee cups (kinda odd anyways that you can get hot coffee and meals via mail-order, but let this out for a moment! =)They were cheap, so I bought them.

And up they were again. The 18x pack and the 1x pack. Hm... odd coincidence?!Bought them.And up they were again... weird.So I bought them again.And as expected, the 18x pack and the 1x pack were also listed again.4th time... 5th time, to be sure... you can imagine.

So here's the thing: Is there some kind of automated trading even possible?And if, is this even legal in terms of, uhm, the terms? :o

Or am I missing out on something?

cheers,

Bo

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Nobody is allowed to run any third party program to automate anything - including trading. That doesn't mean that there aren't programs out there some (nefarious) people are using. Whether this is an incident of that or not, there is no way for us as users to be sure.

[Biff.5312]

What I don't get is where the advantage is in this. Let's say someone had 100 stacks of the item you bought. If it's at a cheap price, why not list them all? Listing one at a time really serves no purpose.

I get that if you post in bulk it MIGHT encourage the next vendor to beat his price, figuring it's a fixture and not a fluke, but if it's a genuinely low price I don't see any reason to worry that the stack won't sell.

[Matick.4132]

@Biff.5312 said:What I don't get is where the advantage is in this. Let's say someone had 100 stacks of the item you bought. If it's at a cheap price, why not list them all? Listing one at a time really serves no purpose.

Well, if you lower the price it can lead to a number of things.But my best guess, it is either so shy away ppl from that item (because YOU have some big stacks to trade) or it is to lower the price for all these market and flipping websites. It’s a way to manipulate the market and eg. mark an item as ‚hot‘ or ‚not‘!

Either way, it’s market manipulation.And if so, not really discussed in the community, or is it?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

It's almost certainly an intermittent bug in which you see only a few listings, but there are more that aren't showing. So each time you buy some, the listing updates with those that were hidden. Eventually, it will resolve itself.

[Matick.4132]

A bug? Intermittent?That re-lists the items, exactly like the ones before you've just bought?

I highly doubt that, because you can buy those items numerous times and they pop up exactly the same, like the ones before.Thought market manipulation might occure at the high-level items, or those consumables that are hot right now, but I've watched these incidents happen often on those sideline items.

I dunno how one must write a bot or mechanism for it, but there were other automated things going on in the past, so I think in some way this is possible.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Matick.4132 said:A bug? Intermittent?That re-lists the items, exactly like the ones before you've just bought?

I highly doubt that,You can doubt it, but it's been well-documented before.

It's also more likely than a bot that waits for a purchase of x units and then relists for exactly x units.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Its automated trading and no its not legal. Players also can't discuss it on the forums in more depths since it would show how that could be done which is also against policy.

[Healix.5819]

People are of course automating the trading post, and have been since the beginning. Anyone can watch the trading post and know instantly when something changes, since it's publicly available through the API, so unless you can catch it happening instantaneously 24/7, there's really no way of knowing if it's a bot or not. As for only listing a few items at a time, it's a simple tactic and slightly easier to manage.

[vampirelazarus.9403]

I can confirm that it is more than likely a graphical glitch. The system for whatever reason only shows you x amount of an item, when in reality there are hundreds maybe of that item. I've seen it more so with orders that seem to have just been placed, i.e., Im looking at an item (item 1), place an order, go to another item (item 2), and come back to item 1 because i noticed someone list for just above my order. When purchasing it, I then see that the amount never changed, so I purchase more.

It definitely sounds like it's just a glitch.

[Kako.1930]

This just made me wonder what a fine cup of Amnoon coffee tastes like.... :3

[mercury ranique.2170]

Keep in mind that the tp has anti bot measures. Some likely invisible, but one is very visible. You placed too many orders. Due to his, a bot would be very tracable. It also means that the know glitch is a much more likely explaination.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Blockhead Magee.3092 said:Nobody is allowed to run any third party program to automate anything - including trading. That doesn't mean that there aren't programs out there some (nefarious) people are using. Whether this is an incident of that or not, there is no way for us as users to be sure.

Dps Meters automates damage calculations. It's all about what anet allows you to do, because rules related to 3rd parties are being actively ignored for a long time already.

[Matick.4132]

No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Matick.4132 said:No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

I'm sure there are some people using automated tools illicitly. The point is: that's not what's going on in your example.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Matick.4132 said:No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

I'm sure there are some people using automated tools illicitly. The point is: that's not what's going on in your example.

Wait, what? A pattern repeated fives times in a row...that's exactly what an automated app would do. Why are you are trying to cover this up? I get that there are glitches in the software, but repeating patterns is what automated TP apps would do. Still not legal via game terms but why would you blame the devs for a bug in this case? Besides all the OP was looking for was what did they see, ran into this many times in the past and ended up researching it. Not legal but it is what it is and people shouldn't be allowed to use them. Hoping detection continues to eliminate these types of apps.

Good trading!

[Bollocks.4078]

Does the API show correctly or is it also affected by the bug?

OP, are you saying you bought the 18x and the 1x? If so what does your TP log say? Does it show that you bought all 19x at for the same price each time or does it show the 1x at a different price from the 18x?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Matick.4132 said:No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

I'm sure there are some people using automated tools illicitly. The point is: that's not what's going on in your example.

Wait, what? A pattern repeated fives times in a row...that's exactly what an automated app would do. Why are you are trying to cover this up?It's a well-documented bug. The TP simply isn't able to correctly display that there's e.g. 5 stacks of units available at price X; it only shows 5. Each time someone buys 5, it unlocks another five units, because it's bugged and can't display more — that's why the pattern repeats 5 or sometimes 10 times or more in a row.

Please ensure you have all the available facts before accusing someone of being involved in cheating the game (or covering up someone else's cheating).

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Sounds more like a bot than a bug. I've seen the bug, and the TP said the item was no longer available when I tried to buy it . . . even though it's still listed.

[Matick.4132]

@Bollocks.4078

It was five-ish in this case and on 7-8 other items, in the last week. Happened before, but since I only got into this now, it felt just like coincidence.Yes, it was 18x stacks for X and 1x stack for Y, so 19x stacks in total.And every time I bought them, they were up again, as soon as I clicked on the listed item again. 2-3 times might be a failure in the UI (this is up for the devs to decide, if this is possible at all). And yes, 19x, 38x, 57x... items were piling up in my inventory, as well as in my buying list.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Yeah . . . in that case? Definitely a bot. ☹

[Bollocks.4078]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Matick.4132 said:No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

I'm sure there are some people using automated tools illicitly. The point is: that's not what's going on in your example.

Wait, what? A pattern repeated fives times in a row...that's exactly what an automated app would do. Why are you are trying to cover this up?It's a well-documented bug. The TP simply isn't able to correctly display that there's e.g. 5 stacks of units available at price X; it only shows 5. Each time someone buys 5, it unlocks another five units, because it's bugged and can't display more — that's why the pattern repeats 5 or sometimes 10 times or more in a row.

Please ensure you have all the available facts before accusing someone of being involved in cheating the game (or covering up someone else's cheating).

If this is so well documented then why hasn't it been fixed? Why does it only affect some items? I know I've seen items, like lots of T1 mats, that show hundreds of thousands listed at the lowest sell price. It may be a bug but it's not making much logical sense as observed. Seems this should be a reasonably high priority to get fixed as it could affect people buying and selling on the TP in a big way.> @Matick.4132 said:

@"kitten.4078"

It was five-ish in this case and on 7-8 other items, in the last week. Happened before, but since I only got into this now, it felt just like coincidence.Yes, it was 18x stacks for X and 1x stack for Y, so 19x stacks in total.And every time I bought them, they were up again, as soon as I clicked on the listed item again. 2-3 times might be a failure in the UI (this is up for the devs to decide, if this is possible at all). And yes, 19x, 38x, 57x... items were piling up in my inventory, as well as in my buying list.

But what does your TP history show? Does it show 19x at the same price or does it show 18x for X and 1x for Y? If you instantly got 19x at the lower sell price the either the there were already more than 18x there at the lower price or someone happened to list more at that price. If it happened that way over and over then it starts to seem more likely that there were more at the lower price and less likely that someone else happened to list more at that price. If your history repeatedly shows 18x for X and 19x for Y then either the item was instantly being relisted or the bug is a lot more serious than just cosmetics and really should be a very high priority to get fixed.

[Matick.4132]

Nope @Bollocks.4078 , it was 19x for X and 1x for Y.In the TP as well as in my inventory. I got two separate prices each time, so the bulk-bug-theory makes no sense to me.

[Kruhljak.2705]

@Bollocks.4078 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Matick.4132 said:No, true. As users it is hard to impossible to look on the other side.Whereas devs, there should be possibilities to detect automation.

Imho: In the end, whether it's automated trading or other enhancement-apps (real winning-enhancements, not boss-timers or stuff like that) it damages the game and/or community (depending on your level of involvement).

I'm sure there are some people using automated tools illicitly. The point is: that's not what's going on in your example.

Wait, what? A pattern repeated fives times in a row...that's exactly what an automated app would do. Why are you are trying to cover this up?It's a well-documented bug. The TP simply isn't able to correctly display that there's e.g. 5 stacks of units available at price X; it only shows 5. Each time someone buys 5, it unlocks another five units, because it's bugged and can't display more — that's why the pattern repeats 5 or sometimes 10 times or more in a row.

Please ensure you have all the available facts before accusing someone of being involved in cheating the game (or covering up someone else's cheating).

If this is so well documented then why hasn't it been fixed? Why does it only affect some items? I know I've seen items, like lots of T1 mats, that show hundreds of thousands listed at the lowest sell price. It may be a bug but it's not making much logical sense as observed. Seems this should be a reasonably high priority to get fixed as it could affect people buying and selling on the TP in a big way.

You can see this problem for yourself. I occasionally buy a lot of cheap blues and greens to feed my alt accounts' magic find fodder and this bug will show up every so often. I'll buy, say, 50 items at the sell price and the range of prices that are automatically highlighted will, in whole or in part, be there again immediately AFTER I buy them. For example, if there are 50 items from 2s to 2s35c, and I buy them, often there will still be more at 2s to 2s35c, or some portion thereof available (and yes, I can go ahead and buy more at that range, it's not just a display bug). Fixed? Yeah, all the bugs should be fixed, but I doubt it materially adversely affects more players than many other bugs in the game.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Bollocks.4078 said:If this is so well documented then why hasn't it been fixed?

Because it's either not a high priority or it's a lot harder to fix than it sounds.

Why does it only affect some items?

I'm pretty sure it can affect any item, but it's only apparent when it's something that trades in bulk.

I know I've seen items, like lots of T1 mats, that show hundreds of thousands listed at the lowest sell price.

I'm not sure how that relates to the described example.

It may be a bug but it's not making much logical sense as observed.

A bug makes more sense than there are that many people using automated listing tools that want to be caught — there's very little advantage to selling 5-100 items at a time for something that trades in bulk.

Seems this should be a reasonably high priority to get fixed as it could affect people buying and selling on the TP in a big way.How? If makes buying less convenient, because you have to put in more trades at the given price. It doesn't meaningfully affect selling. And there's a work-around: instead of instant buying, you can put in offers for 1 copper less than the lowest sale offer. Those will take a tiny fraction of additional elapsed time to fulfill, but you can put in an arbitrary amount of orders.