Deep Sea Dragon and the Mysterious Race.

[Michram.6853]

The mystery of the 6th Elder Dragon brought in dozens of theories about him. We know he exists- thanks to the Map of the All, but he didn't send his minions to near the land (I'm aware his creature may only be able to live in water, but it doesn't mean they won't be able to cause some huge damage on the land- creating a tsunami for example).

We may guess he is not yet awaken, but it's weird, because both Jormag and Primordus, and it turned out also Kralkatorrik stirred, and started once more bringing a waste in the whole world.

Is there anything that maybe is holding Deep Sea Dragon back? Because I can't believe Deep Sea Dragon didn't feel Mordremoth and Zhaitan's death. Why didn't he rise? Why doesn't he behave as the other Dragons?

Maybe he is a peaceful dragon that is a pacifist?- Doubtful, the Elder Dragons are the nature itself, and they want to grab as much magic they can.

I think something- no- somebody is holding him back. I think as the Exalted were protecting the Golden City for the arival of Glint's Egg, there is somebody that keeps the 6th Dragon asleep.

I think there is a mysterious race that sacrificed themselves to protect the Unending Ocean and also the Continents.

And my prediction is the Race of Music (not sure I can call them like that)- the Sirens.

Siren Master in Siren's Landing said: "The Sirens were once great sorcerers" and that "sirens through the ages have practiced the songs of our gods", so even the gods were captivated by their music and the Sirens were well-known Race in Orr.

We know so little about them, but I always felt like something is missing in GW2- a lore connected more to the most beautiful aspect of our lives- the music.

The specializations are connected with the Gods, Death, Life and Illusions, but none connects with the Music.

If we will ever have an underwater expansion, I hope we'll meet the Sirens. And I hope they are as connected to the music as I think they are, and I think they are just like countless people on the Earth- they can't live without it.

Could their different kind of magic- the magic of the music keep this Dragon asleep?

If we'll learn their culture and we'll learn to channel their music into the fight, it would be in my opinion the best thing ever.

For example Revenants will be channeling the Echoes of the Mists and my guess for the Stance will be Gwen- why Gwen? Her appearance in the Hall of Chains made me thinking not about that she was there, but when she disappeared I could hear the gentle sound of the tinkerbell.

Anyway the Sirens really interest me, and maybe the absence of the 6th Elder Dragon is their doing?

In our world we know so little (about ~10%) about the life in the oceans, while in this game we know less than 1%. :D

I hope you'll be as interested in this as I am. :)

[Randulf.7614]

If his domain is the ocean, then that is a massive area - bigger than any other dragon. He likely doesnt need to to worry about competing with the land based dragons. Plus if he absorbed some of mordremoths magic, hes prob happily soakng that up plus anything else. Maybe there are leylines for it to tap into.

I dont think the Sirens were anything more than Orrians with a magical specialisation to music. I see no relevance or link to holding back an Elder Dragon, so i think that is a bit too wildly speculative...

Having a dragon away from continental tyria makes more sense anyway. They seem a bit congested in a tiny part of the world as it is. Right now, it has no reason to involve itself in the mainland is the most likely reason.

[Ephemiel.5694]

I think the Deep Sea Dragon HAS stirred, but simply not fully awakened.

Don't forget the lore of the Largos, Quaggan and even Karka specifically mention that they were all forced away from the oceans. Karka especially were mentioned to be avoiding Orr for the same reason they left their homes [Zhaitan was in Orr back then, implying they left their homes because of the Deep Sea Dragon].

Also, i'm pretty sure this season of the Living Story is the 2nd time we see Inquest messing with its minions [first time was in Infinite Coil], so it's clear they know where its minions are, even if we personally haven't seen them yet.

I do feel something is holding at least the minions back, they have to fight through Karka, Quaggans, Krait and especially Largos after all.

[Blocki.4931]

He's like on the other side of the world, maybe he is not fully awake just yet. It's probably going to be a while until we hear from him, unless he randomly decides to pop up

[ugrakarma.9416]

pls If DSD appears in the game, it should be in a large implementation, such as an expansion with giant maps like the PoF.

The Jormag and Primordus thing in LS3, left many frustrated expectations, I expected, something big, an expansion called "fire and ice", with hundreds of new skins and mechanics.

[Michram.6853]

@Randulf.7614 said:If his domain is the ocean, then that is a massive area - bigger than any other dragon. He likely doesnt need to to worry about competing with the land based dragons. Plus if he absorbed some of mordremoths magic, hes prob happily soakng that up plus anything else. Maybe there are leylines for it to tap into.

I dont think the Sirens were anything more than Orrians with a magical specialisation to music. I see no relevance or link to holding back an Elder Dragon, so i think that is a bit too wildly speculative...

Having a dragon away from continental tyria makes more sense anyway. They seem a bit congested in a tiny part of the world as it is. Right now, it has no reason to involve itself in the mainland is the most likely reason.

I was only wondering why this dragon doesn't behave us the other 5. So I theorized there is somebody that prevents his awakening to keep the order in the Ocean. And the Sirens are just my wild guess, that is not based on any proof.

I mean we know nothing about the 6th dragon, and a little about the creatures that live in the ocean, so I'm trying to fill this blank space with my speculation and hoping that it may someday come true. ;)

[Randulf.7614]

What little we know though is in line with the other dragons. It awoke, it caused havoc in lakes and rivers of the land (where is unknown), displaced races like tbe quaggan, karka and krait and rumoured now the largos too.

That is what tne others did. If it has encroached into largos territory, that show it has moved or expanded its territory, also in line with ED behaviour.

The only diff is that itdoes all this from the deepest part of tne ocean and not land, that is likely because it is natural for the beast to do so.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

We know the deep sea dragon is awake and active. He's the cause for the krait, karka, and quaggan being pushed ashore. Further, both The Machine's cinematic of The All as well as the City of Hope trial of fighting dragon minions places the DSD as the second Elder Dragon to rise, and this matches the time table - both Primordus and Kralkatorrik were pushed back due to killed/traitorous "heralds" while the other four woke up "on time", this would put Primordus' and the DSD's awakenings to be very close.

Due to the krait's raised presence on Central Tyria only beginning 50 years ago, it's likely that the DSD was simply very far away and not moving very much. This isn't uncommon among Elder Dragon behavior, as the Elder Dragons tend to sit in one spot for long periods of time (Primordus woke up and moved about clearing tracks of land underground, but eventually returned to where he woke up until Season 3; Jormag woke up way up north moved south over the period of four years, but ceased movements once facing resistance; Kralkatorrik flew south immediately to kill Glint, but once that was done remained in the general area until he got a massive magic boost and moved to Kourna, Vabbi seemingly only an intermittent stop for him).

The DSD is hinted to be currently fighting the largos nation(s) underwater, and his presence is likely stopped by them the same way Primordus' presence has been stalled by the dwarves. The DSD itself is likely not involved, due to the Elder Dragons' nature to remain in its own territory and let minions do the heavy lifting for them.

As for the Sirens... I have two theories about this:

Theory one: they're actually the largos. IIRC, the novel Sea of Sorrows has Cobiah describe mermaids as blue skinned with white hair people who live in the Sea of Sorrows (formerly known as Bay of Sirens) and the Unending Ocean. This matches the description of largos pretty well, as all largos are blue skinned and white haired; though it is an overly generic name. Mermaids and Sirens are colloquially the same creature in Greek mythology. The Siren Master knowing of largos would not be surprising, given that largos names have similar origins as Orrian names (Persian/Arabic), and Sayeh knew Orrian very well in the PS, being the one who translated the Orrian texts for the Commander when raiding Abaddon's temple. With centuries (if not millennia) since contact between Orr and largos, it's possible that largos culture changed drastically since the Siren Master's knowledge, and what he spoke of is their past culture, which has changed into a more assassin/hunter-like culture (or we've only seen one small portent of their culture, and their musically inclined side has been left unseen).

Theory two: Alternatively, it's possible given Siren's Landing that the term merely refers to a type of wizard from Orrian history, one who focused on song much like how Paragons and the Kurzicks focused on song and ballad in GW1.

[Michram.6853]

The Largos can be also one of the underwater organizations like for example Sylvari have few- followers of Ventari's Teachings and The Nightmare Court and also the Soundless.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:IIRC, the novel Sea of Sorrows has Cobiah describe mermaids as blue skinned with white hair people who live in the Sea of Sorrows (formerly known as Bay of Sirens) and the Unending Ocean.

He describes a mermaid as having green scales from her shoulders to the tip of her tail, with pale eyes and hair like Bivianne's (white-blond). The last two might be a distorted description of largos, but green scales, plus mistaking wing-fins coming out of the neck as a tail? I'm not so sure.

[Fenom.9457]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:pls If DSD appears in the game, it should be in a large implementation, such as an expansion with giant maps like the PoF.

The Jormag and Primordus thing in LS3, left many frustrated expectations, I expected, something big, an expansion called "fire and ice", with hundreds of new skins and mechanics.

I still fully expect expansionsFor those dragons, just later

[Renkku.7451]

We know that all or at least some of the elder dragons have a second domain. My theory is that the deep sea dragon's second domain is secrets or memory or something like that. The fact that we don't know it's name would support this. There's plenty of quaggan and krait in Tyria and the fact that none of them speak the dragon's name might be because the dragon has wiped it from their memory or put a spell on them so they can't say/write it.

[Telwyn.1630]

Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

[Tyson.5160]

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

[Zola.6197]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

People have theorized that the dragon name will be some variance of Scylla from Greek mythology.

[Zola.6197]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

People have theorized that the dragon name will be some variance of Scylla from Greek mythology.

I quite like that idea. Hopefully it’s true!

[Tyson.5160]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

People have theorized that the dragon name will be some variance of Scylla from Greek mythology.

I quite like that idea. Hopefully it’s true!

What is also interesting is that the Luxons from Cantha share Ancient Greece names, who use to reside in the Jade Sea, which may have gone back into water by now. Apparently the Dragon Empire assimilated their culture.

Largos also have some Greece connection with their naming with House Tethyos.

The DSD may also have connection to Greek Mythology, which is also very interesting as well.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

More or less true. A dev (I think it was Angel McCoy) said that they had a name for the DSD once and planned to reveal it, but they decided they didn't like it and scrapped it. No reference to how long ago this was, or if a new name was thought up since.

[videoboy.4162]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

It really should be female, since all the other ones seem to be presented as male. Although, I think it would be hilarious to find out Jormag is actually female, since the Sons of Svanir hate women. lol

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

More or less true. A dev (I think it was Angel McCoy) said that they had a name for the DSD once and planned to reveal it, but they decided they didn't like it and scrapped it. No reference to how long ago this was, or if a new name was thought up since.

Yeah Angel mentioned it after she left Anet.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@videoboy.4162 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Telwyn.1630" said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

It really should be female, since all the other ones seem to be presented as male. Although, I think it would be hilarious to find out Jormag is actually female, since the Sons of Svanir hate women. lol

Technically (or originally), the Elder Dragons have no genders, and the reference of using gender specific pronouns on them is largely due to how English users (e.g., Anet) tend to find it weird to refer to an individual who's gender is unknown or has no gender as "it" since "it" tends to be used to refer to objects. Though from an in-universe perspective, it is Tyrians trying to personify something they don't understand (similar to how they refer to the Elder Dragons as mindless entities or natural phenomena - neither is true).

This lore could have been changed, especially given Mordremoth's masculine voice and Kralkatorrik's confirmation as Glint's father (and subsequently, how Glint, Vlast, and Aurene each have a gender attributed to them), but that's how it was established in 2012. Though given the lack of knowledge of Vlast/Aurene's supposed father (or Glint's supposed mother) it wouldn't be unfathomable for dragons to be asexual and gender association is more chosen out of one's personality in relation to mortal species' genders.

Even if the lore got changed where they go from genderless seemingly asexual reproducers to actually being male or female, though, we only have two Elder Dragons defined as male. AFAIK, nothing actually says that Zhaitan (who did have a high pitched roar), Primordus, or Jormag are males (beyond the Sons of Svanir proclaiming Jormag is male because they're misogynists); unless a minion calls them male (and no destroyers talk so we know that's not so for Primordus), any gender association is really speculative (be it from player perspective or Tyrian perspective).

And heck, we can add Mordremoth to the list of three, I'm sure. She could just be a deep voiced lady after all. :tongue:

[videoboy.4162]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@videoboy.4162 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Telwyn.1630" said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

It really should be female, since all the other ones seem to be presented as male. Although, I think it would be hilarious to find out Jormag is actually female, since the Sons of Svanir hate women. lol

Technically (or originally), the Elder Dragons have no genders, and the reference of using gender specific pronouns on them is largely due to how English users (e.g., Anet) tend to find it weird to refer to an individual who's gender is unknown or has no gender as "it" since "it" tends to be used to refer to objects. Though from an in-universe perspective, it is Tyrians trying to personify something they don't understand (similar to how they refer to the Elder Dragons as mindless entities or natural phenomena - neither is true).

This lore could have been changed, especially given Mordremoth's masculine voice and Kralkatorrik's confirmation as Glint's father (and subsequently, how Glint, Vlast, and Aurene each have a gender attributed to them), but that's how it was established in 2012. Though given the lack of knowledge of Vlast/Aurene's supposed father (or Glint's supposed mother) it wouldn't be unfathomable for dragons to be asexual and gender association is more chosen out of one's personality in relation to mortal species' genders.

Even if the lore got changed where they go from genderless seemingly asexual reproducers to actually being male or female, though, we only have two Elder Dragons defined as male. AFAIK, nothing actually says that Zhaitan (who

did

have a high pitched roar), Primordus, or Jormag are males (beyond the Sons of Svanir proclaiming Jormag is male because they're misogynists); unless a minion calls them male (and no destroyers talk so we know that's not so for Primordus), any gender association is really speculative (be it from player perspective or Tyrian perspective).

And heck, we can add Mordremoth to the list of three, I'm sure. She could just be a deep voiced lady after all. :tongue:

Woah, wait! When/where did they say that Kralk was Glint's father? I knew he'd fathered her eggs, but not that.

(Also, while you're here, where's the thing that confirms Balthazar has already been replaced? I keep seeing people mentioned that, but can't find it.)

[Tyson.5160]

@videoboy.4162 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@videoboy.4162 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Telwyn.1630" said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

It really should be female, since all the other ones seem to be presented as male. Although, I think it would be hilarious to find out Jormag is actually female, since the Sons of Svanir hate women. lol

Technically (or originally), the Elder Dragons have no genders, and the reference of using gender specific pronouns on them is largely due to how English users (e.g., Anet) tend to find it weird to refer to an individual who's gender is unknown or has no gender as "it" since "it" tends to be used to refer to objects. Though from an in-universe perspective, it is Tyrians trying to personify something they don't understand (similar to how they refer to the Elder Dragons as mindless entities or natural phenomena - neither is true).

This lore could have been changed, especially given Mordremoth's masculine voice and Kralkatorrik's confirmation as Glint's father (and subsequently, how Glint, Vlast, and Aurene each have a gender attributed to them), but that's how it was established in 2012. Though given the lack of knowledge of Vlast/Aurene's supposed father (or Glint's supposed mother) it wouldn't be unfathomable for dragons to be asexual and gender association is more chosen out of one's personality in relation to mortal species' genders.

Even if the lore got changed where they go from genderless seemingly asexual reproducers to actually being male or female, though, we only have two Elder Dragons defined as male. AFAIK, nothing actually says that Zhaitan (who

did

have a high pitched roar), Primordus, or Jormag are males (beyond the Sons of Svanir proclaiming Jormag is male because they're misogynists); unless a minion calls them male (and no destroyers talk so we know that's not so for Primordus), any gender association is really speculative (be it from player perspective or Tyrian perspective).

And heck, we can add Mordremoth to the list of three, I'm sure. She could just be a deep voiced lady after all. :tongue:

Woah, wait! When/where did they say that Kralk was Glint's father? I knew he'd fathered her eggs, but not that.

(Also, while you're here, where's the thing that confirms Balthazar has already been replaced? I keep seeing people mentioned that, but can't find it.)

Kralkatorrik being Glint’s sire, I believe was mentioned in Path of Fire and confirmed during an Anet Forum Chat.

I think Konig brought up this up in post before, but I’ll explain and hopefully don’t butcher it.

So the gods took Balthazar’s divinity from him, however they would have had to put that energy into another being and not one of the other gods. The reason this is so, is way back in Gw1 when Abaddon was about to blow, one of the gods didn’t just step in and absorb the power. Kormir had to intervene and take on Abaddon’s power. The gods also couldn’t put this power into an object either, or they would have done so when Abaddon was about to explode.

That’s the reason Balthazar’s power was placed into another being to become the new war god or whatever you would want to call it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"videoboy.4162" said:Woah, wait! When/where did they say that Kralk was Glint's father? I knew he'd fathered her eggs, but not that.

(Also, while you're here, where's the thing that confirms Balthazar has already been replaced? I keep seeing people mentioned that, but can't find it.)

There was never any mention of who (if anyone) fathered Glint's eggs. That has been pure player speculation since learning Kralkatorrik was a crystal dragon (before that, with the view of Primordus, he was the suspected father back when EotN came out). Kralkatorrik being Glint's sire is indirectly stated in The Way Forward (she's called a scion of an Elder Dragon), and was reaffirmed/clarified twice by Anet devs since.

As for Balthazar being replaced, this comes from two things. Firstly, Kormir still calls the group the "Six Gods", while throughout Path of Fire it is stated that Balthazar's divinity had been stripped. Kormir had lived her entire mortal life calling the group the "Five Gods" so she would not be amiss in calling the group such had Balthazar no successor.

But more telling is the fact that at the end of Nightfall, we're explicitly told that a god's power needs a vessel, and this is the entire premise of why Abaddon was never killed and replaced in 1,075 years - the gods, apparently, had no decided upon replacement. Without a vessel, a god's power can destroy a world (similar to the ending of PoF where Balthazar broke up and the magic he had absorbed ran wild in a maelstrom, Abaddon broke apart at the end of Nightfall and his power threatened to destroy the Realm of Torment and the world of Tyria); this is why Kormir had to take in the magic, sacrificing her individuality in the process (something most people don't get), and replace Abaddon as a god.