Deep Sea Dragon and the Mysterious Race.

[Tamias.7059]

@"videoboy.4162" said:Also, while you're here, where's the thing that confirms Balthazar has already been replaced? I keep seeing people mentioned that, but can't find it.

There isn't any. In Facing the Truth, the following exchange happens:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: I—please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear—we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

That's it. In my opinion it's just a slightly confusingly worded bit of dialogue, but others have taken it as an intentional hint that he was replaced. Even if it is an intentional hint, I think it's not a great idea to treat it as though it has been confirmed. It's become something of a meme among the lore community and I suspect that there will be confusion and outrage when it turns out not to be the case, similar to the confusion and outrage when the sylvari turned out to be minions of Mordremoth - in that case there were many intentional hints placed throughout the game but you almost weren't allowed to talk about it on the lore forum because some people had a personal distaste for the theory.

[perilisk.1874]

The main evidence in support of Balthazar being replaced is that all that power that they took from him had to go somewhere. The entire reason for the apotheosis of Kormir was that the energy released by killing Abaddon would cause a cataclysm, even from the Mists. Of course, that then raises the question of why they didn't do to Abaddon what they did to Balthazar.

[Michram.6853]

I wonder why Balthazar was left just like the other spirits (as Rytlock said), and he wasn't chained like for example Dhuum guarded by all the possible seals, Reapers and servants like Desmina.

Why there wasn't a sign: "Here is the fallen god, do not release him."?

But it's discussion about DSD, not about that. ;)

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@perilisk.1874 said:The main evidence in support of Balthazar being replaced is that all that power that they took from him had to go somewhere. The entire reason for the apotheosis of Kormir was that the energy released by killing Abaddon would cause a cataclysm, even from the Mists. Of course, that then raises the question of why they didn't do to Abaddon what they did to Balthazar.

I'm not sure why everyone seems to think that Balthazar's power was taken from him. Kormir only states that he was stripped of his claim and his title (in reference to him being counted as one of the Six). She never states that his power was taken away from him (or at least, not that I recall). In fact, we see evidence of the opposite. The fact that he was able to restore the fire of Sohothin's flame and then open a portal out of the mists for Rytlock shows that his power must have been intact. And after we defeated him, the release of cataclysmic energy, which was subsequently absorbed by Kralkatorrik and, to some extent, Aurene, is not something you'd expect to be unleashed by a being that had its godly power stripped away.

[Tamias.7059]

@perilisk.1874 said:The main evidence in support of Balthazar being replaced is that all that power that they took from him had to go somewhere. The entire reason for the apotheosis of Kormir was that the energy released by killing Abaddon would cause a cataclysm, even from the Mists. Of course, that then raises the question of why they didn't do to Abaddon what they did to Balthazar.

It's perfectly possible that this is the case. But I don't think it's sufficient to start saying that Balthazar definitely had a successor with no corroborating evidence, as though it were a fact.

[videoboy.4162]

Thanks for all the answers guys! I had just thought that the chains imprisoning Balthazar were also dampening/draining his powers. I didn't think about the need for a vessel and everything that happened with Abbadon

I also could have sworn that Aurene was referenced as Kralk's kid at some point, by I'm probably just recalling the incident with Glint.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Tamias.7059" said:That's it.Uh huh. Except that isn't even the majority of it.

: "Abaddon is breaking up!"Kormir: "Incredible! All that knowledge!": "_It's running wild! It will destroy everything!_"Kormir: "I'm going into it!": "You can't do that!"Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Gate#End_cinematicAt the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. _With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria._https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls_Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed_, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Goddess_of_Truth

It is established that:

Fact 1) A god's power needs a vessel. Without such, it will unleash massive devastation.Fact 2) Balthazar no longer has a god's power (as confirmed by devs). Yet there was no massive devastation.So therefore 3) Balthazar's power went into a new vessel.

That dialogue you quote? You can ignore it completely and still be forced into this conclusion simply by what we witness.

Who or what is that new vessel? We do not know. It is theoretically plausible to be an object. But if that was a possibility, then the entire plot of Abaddon's imprisonment as a full-fledged god becomes nonsensical. The same would be true if they changed the volatile nature of a god's power (which given the ending of Path of Fire, seems to remain true).

@"Arden.7480" said:I wonder why Balthazar was left just like the other spirits (as Rytlock said), and he wasn't chained like for example Dhuum guarded by all the possible seals, Reapers and servants like Desmina.

Why there wasn't a sign: "Here is the fallen god, do not release him."?

He was chained. Rytlock broke them with Sohothin.

@"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:I'm not sure why everyone seems to think that Balthazar's power was taken from him. Kormir only states that he was stripped of his claim and his title (in reference to him being counted as one of the Six). She never states that his power was taken away from him (or at least, not that I recall). In fact, we see evidence of the opposite. The fact that he was able to restore the fire of Sohothin's flame and then open a portal out of the mists for Rytlock shows that his power must have been intact. And after we defeated him, the release of cataclysmic energy, which was subsequently absorbed by Kralkatorrik and, to some extent, Aurene, is not something you'd expect to be unleashed by a being that had its godly power stripped away.

Kormir doest say it.

Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

Further, Balthazar did as well, though indirectly, as well as multiple developers in the Path of Fire AMA (one example). Being stripped of divinity doesn't make one powerless (as evident by Dhuum).

And that power unleashed after we killed him? That was the power he gained during the course of Season 3 - the power from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. It wasn't divinity. Keep in mind it's repeatedly stated that the Bloodstone's explosion would have reached Lion's Arch, and Balthazar absorbed most of that power. And he became exponentially stronger after absorbing Primordus' and Jormag's energy as stated by the Commander to Taimi during The Sacrifice.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Kormir doest say it.

Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.

Further, Balthazar did as well, though indirectly, as well as multiple developers in the Path of Fire AMA (one example). Being stripped of divinity doesn't make one powerless (as evident by Dhuum).

And that power unleashed after we killed him? That was the power he gained during the course of Season 3 - the power from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. It wasn't divinity. Keep in mind it's repeatedly stated that the Bloodstone's explosion would have reached Lion's Arch, and Balthazar absorbed most of that power. And he became exponentially stronger after absorbing Primordus' and Jormag's energy as stated by the Commander to Taimi during The Sacrifice.

Ah, then I must have overlooked that bit of dialogue. Thanks for clearing it up. Originally I thought Balthazar absorbing the Bloodstone magic, etc, was just a way to top up on his magic which might have waned over time as he was trapped in the mists (kinda like how the Elder Dragons feed after slumbering for a long time). But, evidently that is not the case.

So I guess we can then assume that even though Balthazaar was a powerful foe, he was still below his true potential as a god? It would make me feel better about how we beat him with a team of mortals and a baby dragon. XD

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:Ah, then I must have overlooked that bit of dialogue. Thanks for clearing it up. Originally I thought Balthazar absorbing the Bloodstone magic, etc, was just a way to top up on his magic which might have waned over time as he was trapped in the mists (kinda like how the Elder Dragons feed after slumbering for a long time). But, evidently that is not the case.

So I guess we can then assume that even though Balthazaar was a powerful foe, he was still below his true potential as a god? It would make me feel better about how we beat him with a team of mortals and a baby dragon. XD

Yeah, Balthazar was definitely sub-god (this is also why we don't go slowly more and more blind looking at him like we do when looking at Kormir). That, combined with having Aurene's protection and Sohothin (confirmed by devs to be Balthazar's own weapons - so basically a god's sword) is what allowed us to take down Balthazar.

Also, as far as we really know, the gods' power seems to be static, unlike the Elder Dragons. This is why the Elder Dragons could both be defeated by the gods, yet are "primal forces beyond even the gods" - that depending on how much magic they've consumed, they can, theoretically, be either weaker than the gods, or stronger than them. (If so, then Zhaitan and Mordremoth were most likely less than a full-fledged god; where Kralkatorrik current falls on that spectrum would be anyone's guess).

[ugrakarma.9416]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:That, combined with having Aurene's protection and Sohothin (confirmed by devs to be Balthazar's own weapons - so basically a god's sword) is what allowed us to take down Balthazar.

Worth remember the powerful skills they put on Sohotin to illustrate how powerful it is on Pof final chapters.

[MudkipLover.3792]

I personally think Bubbles might be the one elder dragon we can maybe leave in place since all its really doing is chilling in the ocean. Now if it decides to go on the offensive, then that's obviously gonna change.

[Tyson.5160]

@MudkipLover.3792 said:I personally think Bubbles might be the one elder dragon we can maybe leave in place since all its really doing is chilling in the ocean. Now if it decides to go on the offensive, then that's obviously gonna change.

Since we aren’t in the ocean, we can’t tell if it’s just chilling in the ocean or ravaging whole underwater species and civilizations.

[norbes.3620]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@MudkipLover.3792 said:I personally think Bubbles might be the one elder dragon we can maybe leave in place since all its really doing is chilling in the ocean. Now if it decides to go on the offensive, then that's obviously gonna change.

Since we aren’t in the ocean, we can’t tell if it’s just chilling in the ocean or ravaging whole underwater species and civilizations.

We got bunch of hints that Sammy/Steve/ bubbles is doing exactly that cuz He forced a Lot of deep Sea races to relocate onto the shores

A whole species/ tribe / social community or whatever u wanna Call is dont just abandon home for no reason or to Seek adventure. Individuals May Do that but no cultures at whole

[RazielSpecter.6295]

I think i saw a DSD's minion. In Caledon Forest. A Deep Sea Scorpion. It was a little bit different than the Regular Scorpion

[derd.6413]

@RazielSpecter.6295 said:I think i saw a DSD's minion. In Caledon Forest. A Deep Sea Scorpion. It was a little bit different than the Regular Scorpion

doubtful. it's a neutral mob which no elder dragon minion has been. the different look is just some glowy bits on it's skin (no exitremedies) which isn't uncommon to see in deep sea fish (especially in fantasy games)

also dsd-minions are described as tentacled horrors by some in game eye-witnesses (which the scorp doesn't have)

[RazielSpecter.6295]

@derd.6413 said:

@RazielSpecter.6295 said:I think i saw a DSD's minion. In Caledon Forest. A Deep Sea Scorpion. It was a little bit different than the Regular Scorpion

doubtful. it's a neutral mob which no elder dragon minion has been. the different look is just some glowy bits on it's skin (no exitremedies) which isn't uncommon to see in deep sea fish (especially in fantasy games)

also dsd-minions are described as tentacled horrors by some in game eye-witnesses (which the scorp doesn't have)

Yea, but maybe is that kind of thing. It was there all along only you didn't see it jokes. You know? But maybe not

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

i only want to mention one thing, that i hope anet sees too, especially if they plan to have the DSD have a greek connection,

Sirens and Mermaids are NOT the same, mermaids are half fish half human, Sirens are half human half bird, specifically songbirds, they are 3 birdpeople who lived on an island and died by being drowned.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"RazielSpecter.6295" said:I think i saw a DSD's minion. In Caledon Forest. A Deep Sea Scorpion. It was a little bit different than the Regular Scorpion

Because it's a sea scorpion from oceanic depths; such creatures are naturally luminescent or otherwise different from more surface creatures due to different environments. Why there's one in Caledon is the bigger mystery.

Do not get caught up with the phrase "deep sea". We call it the deep sea dragon because that's where it woke up - in the deepest parts of the seas. And not everything from the oceanic depths are going to be the DSD's minions.

We have not seen any of the DSD's minions yet, and the only description we know of the DSD's minions is that they're water twisted into tentacled monstrocities. So expect them to be more like watery destroyers but instead of vague insectoid attributes, vague tentacled (squid/octopus?) attributes.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"RazielSpecter.6295" said:I think i saw a DSD's minion. In Caledon Forest. A Deep Sea Scorpion. It was a little bit different than the Regular Scorpion

Because it's a sea scorpion from oceanic depths; such creatures are naturally luminescent or otherwise different from more surface creatures due to different environments. Why there's one in Caledon is the bigger mystery.

Do not get caught up with the phrase "deep sea". We call it the deep sea dragon because that's where it woke up - in the deepest parts of the seas. And not everything from the oceanic depths are going to be the DSD's minions.

We have not seen any of the DSD's minions yet, and the only description we know of the DSD's minions is that they're water twisted into tentacled monstrocities. So expect them to be more like watery destroyers but instead of vague insectoid attributes, vague tentacled (squid/octopus?) attributes.

Which interesting because the image from the PoF cinematic, that you pointed out, kinda shows the dragon as what appears to be having tentacles as well.

[Fenom.9457]

I hope unending ocean is xpac 3.. 4 would be ok but I don't want to wait any longer!

[DonArkanio.6419]

I think that so called Sirens of Orr aren't/ weren't an entire race of Orr but the profession. As you said - sorcerers. Though I'd love to see some lore dedicated to the Deep Sea Dragon. Maybe the Largos are the ones holding it back? Once ANet is clear about their underwater plans, I think we will go straight into the Unending Ocean!

[orion.8457]

I hope we will have underwater content at the end of Season 5 or for the 3rd expansion. Fighting Deep sea Dragon's minions, underwater mount plz, meeting new races , new mechanics related to this environment/element and fighting the Deep sea Dragon :D

[Bunny.9834]

This is just my weird theory but I think Season 4 will deal with Kralk, and Season 5 might deal with Primordius (Asuran based) and Jormag (Norn based) perhaps? And then 3rd expansion we go back to Cantha to deal with whatever is happening there. Then in S6 the Deep Sea Dragon finally completely awakens and we have to battle him last.

[Yilia.7509]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Telwyn.1630 said:Wonder why nothing is known about the sea dragon.

To keep us on edge. Also a theory that the DSD is female rather then referenced as a male.

I also believe it's rumored ANet hadn't decided on a name for the DSD, so they left it vague until they figured where they'd be going with it.

People have theorized that the dragon name will be some variance of Scylla from Greek mythology.

I quite like that idea. Hopefully it’s true!

What is also interesting is that the Luxons from Cantha share Ancient Greece names, who use to reside in the Jade Sea, which may have gone back into water by now. Apparently the Dragon Empire assimilated their culture.

Largos also have some Greece connection with their naming with House Tethyos.

The DSD may also have connection to Greek Mythology, which is also very interesting as well.

Why should the Jade sea have gone back to water? also there is a huge jade cuboid that has been cut from the jade sea in that library instance where we met the dwarf. if the jade sea went back to water it would have too. I suspect the jade sea and echovald forest to still be stone, which would be really cool as that would be really interesting landscapes.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Yilia.7509 said:Why should the Jade sea have gone back to water? also there is a huge jade cuboid that has been cut from the jade sea in that library instance where we met the dwarf. if the jade sea went back to water it would have too. I suspect the jade sea and echovald forest to still be stone, which would be really cool as that would be really interesting landscapes.It was stated in some lore docs that ever sincE shiro's death it seemed that the effects of the Jade Winds were beginning to undo themselves, and the forest and jade sea were going back to normal.