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What stat combos do you want removed from WvW?


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@Etheri.5406 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:The poll is clearly biased towards Dire/Trailblazer and has even neatly tucked them both in under common denominator.

Nice attempt at trolling.

P.S. WvW is intended to be unrestricted PvP.

Unrestricted pvp doesn't mean balance proposals are moot. And stat combos definitely have an effect on balancing; as seen for PvP where these combos were found to be unbalanced. Just like various other aspects, some of which were taken over for WvW and some of which weren't.

You stated NOTHING about the advantages or disadvantages on gameplay for removing these stats other than "i don't want them gone".

People saying condi has less burst than power if you cleanse enough... no kitten? A power mirage that makes a misstep dies. A power mirage has a far longer cooldown on its bursts, and very limited personal heals and cleanse. A condi mirage does the exact same yet it barely takes power damage - it can literally tank several bursts from the power mirage. It has vastly more constant pressure, defensives and cleanse.

If you're capable of dodging; condi mirage is far more difficult to deal with than power. As is obvious from... pvp? wvw? Anyone who isn't exceptionally bad or roaming on reaper?

The damage difference between viper and trailblazer is insanely low and not worth the tradeoff considering the defensive stats you gain on TB.

"Nerfs scourge more" Sorry but if scourge is beating you in either roaming or PvP without support on mirage then you deserve every single bit of that death. And hmh; it's almost like minstrel firebrand with huge cleanse and trailblazer scourge with good condi application, both taking heavily reduced condi and power damage is pretty kitten strong. Imagine how PvP would be with firebrands on minstrel rather than menders. Even magi was too broken to deal with, lul.

If you're truly in favor of "unrestricted" stats then let us freely distribute stats. Power is missing quite a few combos, and double defensive / double support (or double condi) stats are considerably stronger than power counterparts. Especially since there are no alternatives. At least then you'll see how BROKEN this idea is; but that'd be unrestricted.

Currently we're playing with limited / restricted stats which are favoring certain unhealthy builds. It's not more "freedom" if it helps enable an unhealthy meta which is oppresive to build variety.

I’m sorry what part of unrestricted PvP was unclear?

You don't have unrestricted PvP in either PvP or WvW. Unrestricted means any stat combos are accessible; you can freely distribute stats as you wish. This is not possible even in WvW. Current system is STILL RESTRICTED. It's just biased as some combos exist and others do not. There are literally stat combos in PvP which don't exist in WvW AND vice versa - yet here you are saying one is unrestricted and one is not. What is unclear... hmh? The entire concept of "unrestricted", clearly. "Seeker and wizard are restricted PvP, trailblazer and minstrel are unrestricted pvp". Yeah I understand competely now! One is clearly restrictive and the other is not? Oh wait no it's just available choices depending on balance. "

Yeah but you can mix and match stats in WvW so not restrictive!" yeah we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about removing certain options for the sake of balance. And you can still mix defensive condi stats to make somethign trailblazer like, but you'll lose effective stats thus making defensive condi builds less effective. Considering they're oppresive at large scale and small scale roaming, I find that an acceptable idea. Same goes for supports, who don't have better alternatives than minstrel in almost all cases.

Which stats should be removed? TB, minstrel. And as far as i'm concerned, energy sigil, concentration sigil, durability runes, also need to go. For starters.

Let me put it this way, removing TB/Dire will not have the desired effect and WILL bear unforeseen consequences.

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@Arlette.9684 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:The poll is clearly biased towards Dire/Trailblazer and has even neatly tucked them both in under common denominator.

Nice attempt at trolling.

P.S. WvW is intended to be unrestricted PvP.

Unrestricted pvp doesn't mean balance proposals are moot. And stat combos definitely have an effect on balancing; as seen for PvP where these combos were found to be unbalanced. Just like various other aspects, some of which were taken over for WvW and some of which weren't.

You stated NOTHING about the advantages or disadvantages on gameplay for removing these stats other than "i don't want them gone".

People saying condi has less burst than power if you cleanse enough... no kitten? A power mirage that makes a misstep dies. A power mirage has a far longer cooldown on its bursts, and very limited personal heals and cleanse. A condi mirage does the exact same yet it barely takes power damage - it can literally tank several bursts from the power mirage. It has vastly more constant pressure, defensives and cleanse.

If you're capable of dodging; condi mirage is far more difficult to deal with than power. As is obvious from... pvp? wvw? Anyone who isn't exceptionally bad or roaming on reaper?

The damage difference between viper and trailblazer is insanely low and not worth the tradeoff considering the defensive stats you gain on TB.

"Nerfs scourge more" Sorry but if scourge is beating you in either roaming or PvP without support on mirage then you deserve every single bit of that death. And hmh; it's almost like minstrel firebrand with huge cleanse and trailblazer scourge with good condi application, both taking heavily reduced condi and power damage is pretty kitten strong. Imagine how PvP would be with firebrands on minstrel rather than menders. Even magi was too broken to deal with, lul.

If you're truly in favor of "unrestricted" stats then let us freely distribute stats. Power is missing quite a few combos, and double defensive / double support (or double condi) stats are considerably stronger than power counterparts. Especially since there are no alternatives. At least then you'll see how BROKEN this idea is; but that'd be unrestricted.

Currently we're playing with limited / restricted stats which are favoring certain unhealthy builds. It's not more "freedom" if it helps enable an unhealthy meta which is oppresive to build variety.

I’m sorry what part of unrestricted PvP was unclear?

You don't have unrestricted PvP in either PvP or WvW. Unrestricted means any stat combos are accessible; you can freely distribute stats as you wish. This is not possible even in WvW. Current system is STILL RESTRICTED. It's just biased as some combos exist and others do not. There are literally stat combos in PvP which don't exist in WvW AND vice versa - yet here you are saying one is unrestricted and one is not. What is unclear... hmh? The entire concept of "unrestricted", clearly. "Seeker and wizard are restricted PvP, trailblazer and minstrel are unrestricted pvp". Yeah I understand competely now! One is clearly restrictive and the other is not? Oh wait no it's just available choices depending on balance. "

Yeah but you can mix and match stats in WvW so not restrictive!" yeah we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about removing certain options for the sake of balance. And you can still mix defensive condi stats to make somethign trailblazer like, but you'll lose effective stats thus making defensive condi builds less effective. Considering they're oppresive at large scale and small scale roaming, I find that an acceptable idea. Same goes for supports, who don't have better alternatives than minstrel in almost all cases.

Which stats should be removed? TB, minstrel. And as far as i'm concerned, energy sigil, concentration sigil, durability runes, also need to go. For starters.

Let me put it this way, removing TB/Dire will not have the desired effect and WILL bear unforeseen consequences.

Then tell us why not, and tell us which unforeseen consequences.I guess you don't have to, I won't be posting here again. These forums are too heavily moderated to have discussions; which isn't on you. I just can't actually use this medium, so I won't.

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@Arlette.9684 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:The poll is clearly biased towards Dire/Trailblazer and has even neatly tucked them both in under common denominator.

Nice attempt at trolling.

P.S. WvW is intended to be unrestricted PvP.

Unrestricted pvp doesn't mean balance proposals are moot. And stat combos definitely have an effect on balancing; as seen for PvP where these combos were found to be unbalanced. Just like various other aspects, some of which were taken over for WvW and some of which weren't.

You stated NOTHING about the advantages or disadvantages on gameplay for removing these stats other than "i don't want them gone".

People saying condi has less burst than power if you cleanse enough... no kitten? A power mirage that makes a misstep dies. A power mirage has a far longer cooldown on its bursts, and very limited personal heals and cleanse. A condi mirage does the exact same yet it barely takes power damage - it can literally tank several bursts from the power mirage. It has vastly more constant pressure, defensives and cleanse.

If you're capable of dodging; condi mirage is far more difficult to deal with than power. As is obvious from... pvp? wvw? Anyone who isn't exceptionally bad or roaming on reaper?

The damage difference between viper and trailblazer is insanely low and not worth the tradeoff considering the defensive stats you gain on TB.

"Nerfs scourge more" Sorry but if scourge is beating you in either roaming or PvP without support on mirage then you deserve every single bit of that death. And hmh; it's almost like minstrel firebrand with huge cleanse and trailblazer scourge with good condi application, both taking heavily reduced condi and power damage is pretty kitten strong. Imagine how PvP would be with firebrands on minstrel rather than menders. Even magi was too broken to deal with, lul.

If you're truly in favor of "unrestricted" stats then let us freely distribute stats. Power is missing quite a few combos, and double defensive / double support (or double condi) stats are considerably stronger than power counterparts. Especially since there are no alternatives. At least then you'll see how BROKEN this idea is; but that'd be unrestricted.

Currently we're playing with limited / restricted stats which are favoring certain unhealthy builds. It's not more "freedom" if it helps enable an unhealthy meta which is oppresive to build variety.

I’m sorry what part of unrestricted PvP was unclear?

You don't have unrestricted PvP in either PvP or WvW. Unrestricted means any stat combos are accessible; you can freely distribute stats as you wish. This is not possible even in WvW. Current system is STILL RESTRICTED. It's just biased as some combos exist and others do not. There are literally stat combos in PvP which don't exist in WvW AND vice versa - yet here you are saying one is unrestricted and one is not. What is unclear... hmh? The entire concept of "unrestricted", clearly. "Seeker and wizard are restricted PvP, trailblazer and minstrel are unrestricted pvp". Yeah I understand competely now! One is clearly restrictive and the other is not? Oh wait no it's just available choices depending on balance. "

Yeah but you can mix and match stats in WvW so not restrictive!" yeah we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about removing certain options for the sake of balance. And you can still mix defensive condi stats to make somethign trailblazer like, but you'll lose effective stats thus making defensive condi builds less effective. Considering they're oppresive at large scale and small scale roaming, I find that an acceptable idea. Same goes for supports, who don't have better alternatives than minstrel in almost all cases.

Which stats should be removed? TB, minstrel. And as far as i'm concerned, energy sigil, concentration sigil, durability runes, also need to go. For starters.

Let me put it this way, removing TB/Dire will not have the desired effect and WILL bear unforeseen consequences.

Are those consequences that low-skilled players piloting Condi Mirages who have been carried by the stat sets will no longer be able to succeed in roaming? Because that is exactly what would happen, and that is exactly the desired effect. Condi Mirages might need to learn how to avoid multiple bursts now instead of having that stat handicap crutch to lean on.

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@Turk.5460 said:Are those consequences that low-skilled players piloting Condi Mirages who have been carried by the stat sets will no longer be able to succeed in roaming? Because that is exactly what would happen, and that is exactly the desired effect. Condi Mirages might need to learn how to avoid multiple bursts now instead of having that stat handicap crutch to lean on.You would remove two stat combinations to nerf a single class/build? It would make more sense to me to nerf the class itself.

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@Shining One.1635 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Are those consequences that low-skilled players piloting Condi Mirages who have been carried by the stat sets will no longer be able to succeed in roaming? Because that is exactly what would happen, and that is exactly the desired effect. Condi Mirages might need to learn how to avoid multiple bursts now instead of having that stat handicap crutch to lean on.You would remove two stat combinations to nerf a single class/build? It would make more sense to me to nerf the class itself.

As long as condition damage only relies on 1 stat and remains as effective as it is currently, then those stat combos will be the root of the problem.

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@Turk.5460 said:As long as condition damage only relies on 1 stat and remains as effective as it is currently, then those stat combos will be the root of the problem.Condition builds are not equally effective across all classes. Removing TB/Dire to nerf Condi Mirage will weaken other classes/builds that use TB/Dire that are not currently overpowered.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:I don't want any removed, I want more flavours added.

Amen!The easiest way to circumvent tb/dire opression is to throw in a juicier stat comp in the mix. In PvP i use almost exclusively Wizard and/or Viper and I honestly don’t feel any weaker. In fact my opponents feel weaker cuz they don’t have the sustain.

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@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@"nativity.3057" said:The idea of conditions hasn't changed since the core game ("be tanky and do damage overtime"), but after two expansions and power creep, that concept has to change.That's not "the idea of conditions". The undisputed king of condition-based stat combinations is Viper's, which has no defensive stats at all.

Viper's was added with HoT, and it also gives 2 out of 3 stats needed for power builds. The current PvE meta classes that use Vipers use it because of the additional hybrid damage and conditions on crits (bleeds).

But that's PvE. This is WvW. I doubt Viper builds are an issue because of the lack of tankiness. The best condition loadout for WvW has been and is a combination of durability and condition power since the core game.

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@Etheri.5406 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:The poll is clearly biased towards Dire/Trailblazer and has even neatly tucked them both in under common denominator.

Nice attempt at trolling.

P.S. WvW is intended to be unrestricted PvP.

Unrestricted pvp doesn't mean balance proposals are moot. And stat combos definitely have an effect on balancing; as seen for PvP where these combos were found to be unbalanced. Just like various other aspects, some of which were taken over for WvW and some of which weren't.

You stated NOTHING about the advantages or disadvantages on gameplay for removing these stats other than "i don't want them gone".

People saying condi has less burst than power if you cleanse enough... no kitten? A power mirage that makes a misstep dies. A power mirage has a far longer cooldown on its bursts, and very limited personal heals and cleanse. A condi mirage does the exact same yet it barely takes power damage - it can literally tank several bursts from the power mirage. It has vastly more constant pressure, defensives and cleanse.

If you're capable of dodging; condi mirage is far more difficult to deal with than power. As is obvious from... pvp? wvw? Anyone who isn't exceptionally bad or roaming on reaper?

The damage difference between viper and trailblazer is insanely low and not worth the tradeoff considering the defensive stats you gain on TB.

"Nerfs scourge more" Sorry but if scourge is beating you in either roaming or PvP without support on mirage then you deserve every single bit of that death. And hmh; it's almost like minstrel firebrand with huge cleanse and trailblazer scourge with good condi application, both taking heavily reduced condi and power damage is pretty kitten strong. Imagine how PvP would be with firebrands on minstrel rather than menders. Even magi was too broken to deal with, lul.

If you're truly in favor of "unrestricted" stats then let us freely distribute stats. Power is missing quite a few combos, and double defensive / double support (or double condi) stats are considerably stronger than power counterparts. Especially since there are no alternatives. At least then you'll see how BROKEN this idea is; but that'd be unrestricted.

Currently we're playing with limited / restricted stats which are favoring certain unhealthy builds. It's not more "freedom" if it helps enable an unhealthy meta which is oppresive to build variety.

I’m sorry what part of unrestricted PvP was unclear?

You don't have unrestricted PvP in either PvP or WvW. Unrestricted means any stat combos are accessible; you can freely distribute stats as you wish. This is not possible even in WvW. Current system is STILL RESTRICTED. It's just biased as some combos exist and others do not. There are literally stat combos in PvP which don't exist in WvW AND vice versa - yet here you are saying one is unrestricted and one is not. What is unclear... hmh? The entire concept of "unrestricted", clearly. "Seeker and wizard are restricted PvP, trailblazer and minstrel are unrestricted pvp". Yeah I understand competely now! One is clearly restrictive and the other is not? Oh wait no it's just available choices depending on balance. "

Yeah but you can mix and match stats in WvW so not restrictive!" yeah we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about removing certain options for the sake of balance. And you can still mix defensive condi stats to make somethign trailblazer like, but you'll lose effective stats thus making defensive condi builds less effective. Considering they're oppresive at large scale and small scale roaming, I find that an acceptable idea. Same goes for supports, who don't have better alternatives than minstrel in almost all cases.

Which stats should be removed? TB, minstrel. And as far as i'm concerned, energy sigil, concentration sigil, durability runes, also need to go. For starters.

Let me put it this way, removing TB/Dire will not have the desired effect and WILL bear unforeseen consequences.

Then tell us why not, and tell us which unforeseen consequences.I guess you don't have to, I won't be posting here again. These forums are too heavily moderated to have discussions; which isn't on you. I just can't actually use this medium, so I won't.

Just want to point out that discussions are one thing, however if it becomes like some of the PvP threads and get out of hand (personal attacks, arguing for the sake of arguing, naming and shaming...etc) then thats what gets removed. Otherwise discussions are fine.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Arlette.9684 said:The poll is clearly biased towards Dire/Trailblazer and has even neatly tucked them both in under common denominator.

Nice attempt at trolling.

P.S. WvW is intended to be unrestricted PvP.

Unrestricted pvp doesn't mean balance proposals are moot. And stat combos definitely have an effect on balancing; as seen for PvP where these combos were found to be unbalanced. Just like various other aspects, some of which were taken over for WvW and some of which weren't.

You stated NOTHING about the advantages or disadvantages on gameplay for removing these stats other than "i don't want them gone".

People saying condi has less burst than power if you cleanse enough... no kitten? A power mirage that makes a misstep dies. A power mirage has a far longer cooldown on its bursts, and very limited personal heals and cleanse. A condi mirage does the exact same yet it barely takes power damage - it can literally tank several bursts from the power mirage. It has vastly more constant pressure, defensives and cleanse.

If you're capable of dodging; condi mirage is far more difficult to deal with than power. As is obvious from... pvp? wvw? Anyone who isn't exceptionally bad or roaming on reaper?

The damage difference between viper and trailblazer is insanely low and not worth the tradeoff considering the defensive stats you gain on TB.

"Nerfs scourge more" Sorry but if scourge is beating you in either roaming or PvP without support on mirage then you deserve every single bit of that death. And hmh; it's almost like minstrel firebrand with huge cleanse and trailblazer scourge with good condi application, both taking heavily reduced condi and power damage is pretty kitten strong. Imagine how PvP would be with firebrands on minstrel rather than menders. Even magi was too broken to deal with, lul.

If you're truly in favor of "unrestricted" stats then let us freely distribute stats. Power is missing quite a few combos, and double defensive / double support (or double condi) stats are considerably stronger than power counterparts. Especially since there are no alternatives. At least then you'll see how BROKEN this idea is; but that'd be unrestricted.

Currently we're playing with limited / restricted stats which are favoring certain unhealthy builds. It's not more "freedom" if it helps enable an unhealthy meta which is oppresive to build variety.

I’m sorry what part of unrestricted PvP was unclear?

You don't have unrestricted PvP in either PvP or WvW. Unrestricted means any stat combos are accessible; you can freely distribute stats as you wish. This is not possible even in WvW. Current system is STILL RESTRICTED. It's just biased as some combos exist and others do not. There are literally stat combos in PvP which don't exist in WvW AND vice versa - yet here you are saying one is unrestricted and one is not. What is unclear... hmh? The entire concept of "unrestricted", clearly. "Seeker and wizard are restricted PvP, trailblazer and minstrel are unrestricted pvp". Yeah I understand competely now! One is clearly restrictive and the other is not? Oh wait no it's just available choices depending on balance. "

Yeah but you can mix and match stats in WvW so not restrictive!" yeah we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about removing certain options for the sake of balance. And you can still mix defensive condi stats to make somethign trailblazer like, but you'll lose effective stats thus making defensive condi builds less effective. Considering they're oppresive at large scale and small scale roaming, I find that an acceptable idea. Same goes for supports, who don't have better alternatives than minstrel in almost all cases.

Which stats should be removed? TB, minstrel. And as far as i'm concerned, energy sigil, concentration sigil, durability runes, also need to go. For starters.

Let me put it this way, removing TB/Dire will not have the desired effect and WILL bear unforeseen consequences.

Then tell us why not, and tell us which unforeseen consequences.I guess you don't have to, I won't be posting here again. These forums are too heavily moderated to have discussions; which isn't on you. I just can't actually use this medium, so I won't.

Just want to point out that discussions are one thing, however if it becomes like some of the PvP threads and get out of hand (personal attacks, arguing for the sake of arguing, naming and shaming...etc) then thats what gets removed. Otherwise discussions are fine.

I don't think the idea that the official forums are overmoderated is new or weird. It's pretty common knowledge that the forums aren't a place for discussion and that actual critical feedback or discussion is generally not welcome here.

The fact that I'm getting warnings for discussing things, warnings which I cannot reply to and I frankly don't understand outside of "you can't disagree with singular people because that makes it a personal attack" type of nonsense makes it worse.

From what I see most of the threads that have discussion get locked without further ado quickly enough, and quite a few posts get deleted. Doesnt sound like discussion is a goal. Everything has to be so overly politically correct and mindful of others viewpoints that actual discussions are nearly impossible. You can state what you think - as long as it's very very mild - and shortly why you think this, but argue and discuss? Not quite. It's more pretending balance is a democracy where you bring out your vote "I think this" than actually discussing arguments based on their merit. After all, disagreeing with someone in particular and giving reasons as to why you think they're wrong can still be seen as a personal attack if you're zealous enough about it.

It's nothing new, forums being heavily policed is common knowledge and I plain shouldn't have posted. There's no point using this medium as long as most divergent points of view are unwelcome and most critics are already banned. If we want a voting system without discussion

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Why marauder is not listed in the poll? What you after for? Dire / traiblazer are just ok in this power creep era. No worse than any other.

I would want freely selected stats. 1-stat to 4-stat with freely adjustable stats, with max total points. Celestial should be removed and celestial-players would use 4-stat with their choice of stats.

After PoF power creep, I have wanted just one stat: toughness. I would want move stat-points from 2 other stats to toughness and thus 1-stat gear would be ok for me.

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@"Ubi.4136" said:All...lol. Get rid of all stat "combos" and make people choose 1 stat. You can go healing, toughness, power, or condition damage (and only choose one of them). No other stats...lol.

lel wut? That would be a horrible thing as some classes that have traits that scale off 1 stat would be widely popular (as they would offer a stronger "variety" stats...put all points in toughness and get like 1000 points in power with a trait for example) and these classes would be perma meta, and everyone will be pigeonholed in traits/utilities/food way worse than we have ever seen. To wish this is to wish death to WvW as a game mode.

so....no. That would be a horrible idea imo. That idea is more of a PvP idea.

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