Increasing toxicity in EU WvW.

[Comus.7365]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"Comus.7365" said:from my experience..step 1. commander asks everyone to join squad and people dostep 2. commander kicks everyone that's not fotm.step 3. commander asks why no one is joining him.

i mean sure if you can fill your squad with fotm specs sure but don't moan if you can't.

no matter how elitist and entitled some people may think they are they should never expect everyone who signs up for something that's available to everyone that they will cater to their whims.

By the same token no one should feel entitled to access to a squad or a res if they refuse to cooperate with the commander. People are free to play however they want but commanders are also free to kick whomever they wish.

ofcourse but these heroes often forget to mention that all they want is fotm. so how are new recruits supposed to know this?i mean telling "noobs" to leave the map so people with proper specs can join is probably more likely to backfire on them than get what they want.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

The OP isn't unique to EU. It's pretty much all over on NA as well.

I am a roamer/havoc at heart. I will go where I want, when I want... and I will also run WITH a commander using specific builds designed for group fighting when the mood hits.. All of it is fun. There's lots of us types around...

... and then you have what you have mentioned... and that's the many many new people, either here for items they need for legendary stuff or some other reason... Most people I see in groups have under 1k wxp... actually most have under 300...(I have 3400+, not stellar but up there somewhere) and No they don't understand the "community" mentality because frankly.. other than the non-linked servers it doesn't exist much anymore. Linked servers have "no home" and not much community spirit anymore since they're tossed around every couple of months. The host servers (some of them) are taking a beating too.. Crystal Desert was a host but is now linked because people left.. and so on.

The spirit of WvW has been broken for some time now in both EU and NA. Possibly if/when the new alliance system comes in some of that will change but I have my doubts... we will see.

[ArchonWing.9480]

You can't really blame people for looking after their self interest at this point. At the end of the day, people come on and play a game because it's entertaining. There's no incentive to "win" because most have done that for years and you can only do that for so long.

It's just the symptom of an aging game. People have settled in with their own cliques and don't have the patience for beginners at this point. And certainly none for those that don't run the proper builds. You're simply not going to come up with anything innovative enough that someone hasn't done before, at least not by putting at least several times the effort for much less gain, thanks to the way the game's been balanced. So just copy and paste it off metabattle since even if you were to find something else, it's going to be nerf batted anyways.

[Sovereign.1093]

briefing your team is a must for things to go smooth. some will adapt it because they have the will to win

[Israel.7056]

@Comus.7365 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Comus.7365 said:from my experience..step 1. commander asks everyone to join squad and people dostep 2. commander kicks everyone that's not fotm.step 3. commander asks why no one is joining him.

i mean sure if you can fill your squad with fotm specs sure but don't moan if you can't.

no matter how elitist and entitled some people may think they are they should never expect everyone who signs up for something that's available to everyone that they will cater to their whims.

By the same token no one should feel entitled to access to a squad or a res if they refuse to cooperate with the commander. People are free to play however they want but commanders are also free to kick whomever they wish.

ofcourse but these heroes often forget to mention that all they want is fotm. so how are new recruits supposed to know this?i mean telling "noobs" to leave the map so people with proper specs can join is probably more likely to backfire on them than get what they want.

The struggle is always in the messaging. I think a lot of people are happy to conform to requests from commanders if the reasoning is well articulated and they don't feel belittled or berated. There are better ways to try to convince people of things than ridicule and shame in my experience and I think that's where a lot of these conversations go off the rails so to speak.

I'm not saying that I've never gotten frustrated and said mean things to people but I truly make an effort not to do so. I also try to give praise where I think it's deserved because in my experience a lot of commanders give way more negative feedback than positive feedback so it often feels like you're either being yelled at or it's just silence and that's not good.

[Arctisavange.7261]

Speaking as a commander who has been doing it since 2013:

• I dont force anyone to play any specific class but when i lack something specific to make my blob fulfill the missing/lacking parts then i ask "can anyone please switch to x class".

• PVE is not WvW and its blatantly obvious that WvW has its own needed builds that brings out the best in this meta from specific classes. Your PVE build will not do anything useful aside from getting yourself killed and making enemies rally from you.

• In our meta there are classes that are a "must have" classes to make your blob function and fulfill the needed roles in blob fights . Running around with a thief or ranger during blob fights doesnt make you useful due to how the other classes outshine you by miles in group fights.

• If my squad would be open to everyone then my blob would simply not function. Having a closed squad with people being present in voice program makes your blob function. Why? Cause certain classes fulfill certain roles and the players managing those roles MUST be present either in teamspeak or discord so the commander can organize those players to do specific tasks that help everyone out.

Example 1: i organized my warrior winds skill numbers between all warriors (bubbles) and during a blob fight im gona need my warrior #1 to jump to specific location and send warrior #2 soon after to another location. Now given my entire blob can be (sometimes 100% is) reliable on those warriors then i have to be damn certain those warriors in my squad are present hearing my voice via teamspeak or discord. If it happens that none of my warriors are there then often times i will fuck up my entire blob cause i will take certain actions that are dependent on my warriors applying their wind skills. If i dont get nothing then odds are high i made my big part of my blob get wiped to enemies.

Example 2: i want to grab a quick group heal with everyone whose HP is low. Apparently everyone aside from my firebrands are in teamspeak/discord and know when i say something like "healing on tag in 3, 2, 1" then heals should be applied for everyone who are in need of them. Now if my firebrands dont know nothing whats going on and the people who need heals badly from them dont get squat then im basically screwing over my squad for allowing those clueless firebrands by letting them be there.

Example 3: i found myself in a spot that due to good map reading and understanding an ongoing situation very well, i will have first hands to apply all my ranged bombs on entire enemy blob before they spot my blob.So im in a hidden corner with my blob and i say "bomb on entrance at front in 3, 2, 1" where enemies appear exactly at the end of countdown and at best i see only handful of skills falling on them from my side cause a lot of my blob is utterly clueless due to them not being present in discord or teamspeak.Or i get clueless people not stacking still on hidden corner unless i can manage to type super fast "stack" and pray the god the derpy clueless people will actualy do that before enemies notices them peeking around the corner.Oh darn clueless potatos didnt stack and decided to go show their pretty eyes to enemies, due to that the enemy commander got suspicious and stopped moving to the designated area i wanted to bomb with my entire blob.

The amount of examples i can bring out is crazy. These were just a fraction of it but going on.

• Just because you got 25,000 achievement points does not make you a master player in WvW.
• Just because you can roam and kill handful of enemies does not make you an experienced WvW player who knows how to take down enemy blobs.
• Just because your teammates (who often have participated in the blob fights over the years and actually use voice programs) do the most part of killing enemies in blob fights doesnt make you an experienced WvW blob fighter.

And last

• Just because the commander is keeping the squad closed for none teamspeak/discord people and asks if someone can roll to some specific classes doesnt make him a asshole. The commanders who tag up, organize their squads and put an effort to give their best to carry clueless plebs who refuse to use voice programs are the biggest contributors to make sure everyone will have fun, including those who completely neglect voice programs and make life crap tons harder for the commander who has to carry your clueless asses day in and day out.

From a commanders POV who regulary has to carry atleast 40-50 clueless players on map day in and day out cause my server is filled with pip warriors who think too highly of themselves and dont join voice programs for any commanders

[Sovereign.1093]

sb rev scourge - the 3 must haves.

[Dami.5046]

At the end of the day, if you want a certain Build for your squad then get a static, and if you open tug/pug then you need to accept what you will get.No point open tag if you are just going to kick half of people anyway.No wonder people don't join if they have watched people happy to help get kicked, just because they want to help.One comm on my server goes a step further, never speaks, let's his minions talk for him.Case in pointGuy on chat asks to join squad, minion says he needs to join TS.guy replies says he's on TS can hear them all and asks again for an inviteminion says we don't want you anyway, guy leaves.So it's not all about your precious meta builds, there's attitude as well and being rude, unfriendly and unhelpful is free, doesn't cost 300g.

[Etheri.5406]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"Optimator.3589" said:Demanding meta builds is all well and good if the squad is full or nearly so. I'd call it a perfectly reasonable stance. But when you're scraping together whatever you can get (e.g. Izzy making a squad out of the Mag cloud) for a SMC defense or something of that nature, beggars can't be choosers.

Personally, I pick what build I'm going to run based on what I'm going to be doing. If I'm on my holo or my cancer mes running around with a havoc squad and that squad grows into a full-on blob, I'll grab a different character if queue allows.

I still do that but I've just been trying to tell people what I'd prefer more often, particularly since I got back from EU and saw the way Vabbi worked. I'm not going to browbeat anyone into swapping if they don't want to obviously I just realize now that I can't let them into my squad if they're not playing something I'd like them to because that's like rewarding them. For the longest time it wasn't even an issue on Mag. We had so many pugs running meta builds that very rarely did anyone even have to say anything. I don't know what happened.

It's exactly what you stated; you allow and rewarded players for not contributing. They didn't need to roll anything better; they were on mag being carried by plenty of players that were happy to play whatever is necessary. But over time you just get more and more and more of what I'll call "fairweather" players. Many of them in EU hardcore casuals; not new players but players with thousands of hours who still consider them too casual to interact with their teammates. These players are the main reason every strong EU server -always- dies after excessive bandwagoning, despite the servers staying at an excessively high population. Vabbi now has a 7k rank UD druid "main" who runs toughness stacking sigil and 4 signets. I mean some players just plain refuse to improve.

@"Comus.7365" between the spamming of our discord, spamming of our build sites, squad messages, us asking them and if they're low AP or we're feeling nice us pm'ing them I'd say most know what we ask. Some players reroll or join disc; most players plain don't reply; some throw a tantrum the moment they get kicked. Both the discord and the builds are spammed frequently enough and often in squad message. Even if you don't know; it's OK for pugs to ask too. I know exactly what I consider meta; but when I'm joining another comm or group i'll still ask what they need and tell them what I can bring.

no matter how elitist and entitled some people may think they are they should never expect everyone who signs up for something that's available to everyone that they will cater to their whims.

Likewise, if you queue to any map on a certain class or build you expect to play as such. If you queue on a roam class; don't expect to join groups. The groups are not there to cater to your whims, even if that whim is as simple as "ah I wanna join this group now".Enemy blob on garri - you don't want to deal with it but your roamers are crying and they really won't manage to hold it so you hop. You get 5 players into the map with 45 in queue. You reform a squad on hbl to try and defend; and get 30+ roam classes which will obviously get obliterated. I'm sorry I'm kicking each and every one of them. They can defend on their own; move maps to allow my players to get in or reroll. If they do not then I'll just leave myself and let garri flip. There is very often, especially on EB on any EU server, not a lack of players nor a lack of players willing to join, but an excess of players not willing to put in any effort.Which is exactly why you should kick even when squads are not full. It's not about squad being full or not; it's about sending a message. Roamers roam; blobbers blob; you can do both but you spec appropriately or at the very least you ASK.

And there ARE good roamers who simply ask and frankly I'll gladly give them the support if I have it because I know they'll contribute. But if I allow anyone to join on anything they like and trust their world they'll contribute; then frankly most players will not.

A commander can "lead" a squad the best he can; but if players aren't listening it really doesn't matter. And there's a LOT of players who simply refuse to listen; ever. Respect goes both ways, and most pugs don't treat their commanders with respect. They also don't listen when asked to do things nicely. I'm sad to announce that in my experience, toxicity is by far the most effective way.

[Comus.7365]

@Etheri.5406 i don't think we're on the same one.. the only time i saw dicord mentioned was when some random guy asked why they don't use that instead of ts.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Dami.5046" said:At the end of the day, if you want a certain Build for your squad then get a static, and if you open tug/pug then you need to accept what you will get.No point open tag if you are just going to kick half of people anyway.

A few problems. What makes you think pugs don't just add to "statics"? Sorry but I literally have gotten flamed for asking players not to follow our guildraid. You really think bored pugs aren't following guild raids too? You say this but the truth is players will insist in following any tag or person they please. And it turns out they don't respond to nicely asking them not to as much as they respond to toxicity. All hail toxicity.

Commanders; you do NOT need to accept whatever a pug wants to play. Commanders, just like pugs, are people too and can play whatever way they wish. Most players that you kick; even if it is half the squad, barely contribute. It's not uncommon to kick 15 players and barely lose any damage or sustain within squad. I know it's crazy but it's almost like these players ... don't contribute anyways. And the point of open tagging? Playing with the people who want to actually play with you, play your style.

After all, ANYONE is welcome as long as they're willing to play by the rules. If these rules are too much to ask; then I am sorry but i'm not "open" for these players. Let's just call it LFG requirements similar to those seen in PvE. Except there they'd also ask for high rank + UD titles + experience in 2 GvG guilds. No seriously; the only thing you need to do is roll a half decent build or come on voice or if you want an exception ask. If 50%+ of the players cannot or will not do this; then most comms will not have fun leading interactively and they will simply stop / leave / lead more exclusively.

Which ends up hurting the casual playerbase that relies on commanders to teach others the ropes of the game more and more, makes the issues worse as there are continuously more players and less commanders.

So here I am, promoting toxicity to preserve the commanders in WvW. All hail toxicity! Do not be afraid commanders. There are more than enough players that want to play meta on EU. And if you want to lead pugs, all pugs, then simply do so. There is nothing wrong with players who want to karmatrain, chatmand or lead for everyone. If anything I applaud it. But if we force commanders to play around the pugs who blatantly refuse to organise; then organised gameplay cannot exist.

Case in pointGuy on chat asks to join squad, minion says he needs to join TS.guy replies says he's on TS can hear them all and asks again for an inviteminion says we don't want you anyway, guy leaves.So it's not all about your precious meta builds, there's attitude as well and being rude, unfriendly and unhelpful is free, doesn't cost 300g.

Surely, something is missing here. Surely, there's a reason the minion doesn't want the guy there. After all, why ask on TS and then say "we don't want /you/". I've had rangers tell me "they're on discord". I ask them "why do you want to join on ranger?" but they don't reply. They just say again "invite please i'm on discord". Yeah... not gunna happen.

I don't know a single comm that doesn't want nice and helpful pugs. Not one. But the attitude of joining without going on ts, without running something decent, without any regard for what your group wants (to do) is rude, unfriendly and unhelpful. There's attitude in pugs being exceptionally entitled; and those players who lead you are players too. Players who literally SPEND their gold and a LOT of effort to provide you with fun, entertainment and guidance.

I don't think it's crazy that they do this because they enjoy it. And I'm stating very clearly that EU WvW is getting to a point where many places have so many entitled players they're just plain not enjoyable to lead. Or rather, not possible to lead as they won't follow your lead. And the result of that? Nobody does. Guilds and commanders are constantly moving; yet some places are permanently avoided. Why is that?

[Etheri.5406]

I think the casual community shot themselves in the foot massively by promoting playing WvW as if it's casual PvE; and promoting other players to do the same. It has lead to many casual-oriented pugmanders quitting all together; and frankly these commanders were exactly the players that allowed the "jump in and play" kind of WvW.

Guildleaders and veterans / toxic elitists don't struggle with players. They have their core of players; and as long as their core of players can farm pugs and provide the base for a group, they very easily attract more players.

But how often do more casual pugmanders still lead? Where are the dedicated and active community commanders the game had in the past? Commanders like oni, ins, dominate, kuper, dudu, lyroc, disco, shmead, liberius, nation; who would accept ANYONE and put countless hours into working with whatever they got and attempting to improve that? These players alone lead pugs for thousands (not exaggerating) of hours. And not one of them is very active nowadays...

But communities died. Organised gameplay died. Coordination died. So did the fun. Comms are long gone and training new ones? If you want to start leading by all means go for it; it's absolutely amazing with the right groups. But it's a LOT of work and it will take a LOT of time. And frankly, most veterans won't follow new commanders, most casual pugs won't support anyone who isn't feeding them bags so you're fighting an uphill battle constantly. It's a difficult thing to do and quite unforgiving, especially without community or guild support.

[Etheri.5406]

@Comus.7365 said:@Etheri.5406 i don't think we're on the same one.. the only time i saw dicord mentioned was when some random guy asked why they don't use that instead of ts.

You asked how players know which builds we allow. On my server, we have a site with builds we provide which is spammed and regularly in squad message (so people see upon joining) along with a discord link. Nobody really cares about minor variations; and when commanders want to try something else then asking the players to change a trait or skill isn't unheard of.

For the moment I think most commanders on vabbi prefer to play with spite over curses, but both work. They're different playstyles and truthfully; it works best if you have sufficient players coordinating their spike damage. So you will have commanders asking scourges to all go curses, or spite, depending on how they want to lead. And this style is ONLY possible if you have players willing to coordinate and adapt depending on what is needed.

We use the discord instead of TS; it also has builds, it also has discussions regarding the builds, alternatives and so forth. Changes to these builds with patches are often publicly discussed during open leads to see what players think. We also use discord to announce leads, plan events, control our PPT and so forth. That said for our server, any comm is free to ask whatever they desire and play accordingly. If you wanna go full minionmaster raid with only necros, then just ask for that.

I'm not saying you always have to play full elitist meta. We've had full minionmaster raids meming on PPT servers. We've had outnumbered portalbomb raids. We've ran full-melee comp without any necros. We've ran clouds without any commanders relying on heavy range damage and bubbles. In openfield we enjoy to play range heavy; yet as soon as the enemy quits fighting we'll end up fighting in siege and ask for more sustain / ballcomp.

I don't want to play the exact same style every fight. WvW requires you to adapt by its very nature. But these groupwide adaptations are only possible if your group is willing to actually adapt to the enemy; rather than its own players being special snowflakes. If half your group does whatever they like then none of these styles are possible. You can't go ballcomp, you can't go range heavy, you can't portalbomb, you can't go full minionmaster, you can't go full melee and push like a mad man. You're always just an unorganised cloud which at best, adapts by hiding behind structures and shooting acs.

[Tiawal.2351]

It's the same on NA, just isn't something new, and isn't "increasing" but something deep and final.

Unless the system changes, giving A REASON for sticking together, the infighting will continue to tear apart everyone.

There was always a conflict between what the players wanted WvW to be, but once there was a sense of "community", until transfers and then megaservers killed the last rays of hope of working together, for one of these common goals: survive, fight, win -- TOGETHER.

Now, those who are sticking together are just small islands, often in conflict with each other; while the vast majority are way past beyond caring of anything. New players are torn apart in this puzzle, trying to pick sides.

When things get bitter or boring for a player or guild; there is the cheap transfer option to move on, to greener pastures... Just there is no place to go, at least no place is green for a long time, just maybe for few weeks, and certainly ends with next re-linking, or after newcomers make the place worse than their old "home" was.

The whole WvW is akin to a refugee camp. Very few belong to the world they are on, even less of them care for their world anymore. The most important aspect of a faction/realm based game doesn't exist in WvW anymore, was dilluted and washed away. People are on move, constantly... looking for a place to call HOME. No, not because they wish to be loyal to a world; that wish died a long ago... but because they want a place where they can play in a way they like: fight, PPT, roam, or just be left alone.

Most of us are just running away, because we had enough of all this. Trying and failing so many times, until realizing how hopeless it is: one can never unite a team, without at least a single COMMON GOAL. Why unite? Why work together?

[Dawdler.8521]

The problem is that people are seperating WvW more and more into two camps - the honorable and brave fighters that can do no wrong and the filthy PPT kittens.

Want to tag up to cap that spawntower when you are on you non zerg class? Stop PPT kittening you disgusting casual!

Want to tag up fight the zoneblob? Glorious leader that will deliver us to the heavens with your minstrel firebrand might leading 50 mans.

The problem is that there are so many commanders that doesnt do the second part - they dont want to, they dont know how, they wont get people and of course people will demand said glorious leader to step up instead if they fail just once in a 20v80 encounter.

This pushes new or casual commanders away before they even begin. The community pushes them away. Because if you aint a fight commander you're a filthy pleb.

Nowaday the overall feeling seems to be that even if no one is tagging anywhere, no guilds are raiding and people just want to have fun... The fight cloud still hangs like a dark presence over the field making people prefer no tag over any tag.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Tiawal.2351" said:It's the same on NA, just isn't something new, and isn't "increasing" but something deep and final.

Unless the system changes, giving A REASON for sticking together, the infighting will continue to tear apart everyone.

I agree. Yet if you state WvW should be made competitive to produce a common goal these same casual oriented players tell us most players don't want to compete. Probably because if they had to compete they'd lose a lot more often.

So players en-masse continue to pretend WvW is openworld casual PvE where regardless of what you do, you're "helping" and you won't influence the outcome of the fight much. Except where the whole premise isn't true. Our goals aren't all overlapping, and what you do does have a direct impact on others. The outcome of the fight is directly decided by the players through their gameplay; rather than a granted-autowin for participating.

I also don't think alliances will fix the issue. In fact I think alliances has the potential to make it worse. There has definitely been a decline in EU. It's possible it's turning as more and more community-organised servers are being created. Then again, that's only the result of previous "strong" servers becoming entirely unmanageable.

So I turn to our only savior in this time of need. Toxicity. It's time to not carry players regardless of their actions. If they want loot, rewards and fun they'll be responsible for it themselves.

Most of us are just running away, because we had enough of all this. Trying and failing so many times, until realizing how hopeless it is: one can never unite a team, without at least a single COMMON GOAL. Why unite? Why work together?

It may sound crazy, but for many of the comms and veteran players the goal is to play together and have fun. Log in, have some banter and play the game, log out. Hence why having massive amounts of players refusing to interact but insisting on joining is so harmful. It means my community players log in, get faced with a 1-2 hour queue and log out. For anyone that leads EB during prime, having more players in queue than players on discord isn't unheard of. Yet somehow magically you have this giant "cloud" around you. Fun how that works.

[zinkz.7045]

@"Etheri.5406" said:So players en-masse continue to pretend WvW is openworld casual PvE where regardless of what you do, you're "helping" and you won't influence the outcome of the fight much. Except where the whole premise isn't true.

I'd say it is you that have it the wrong way round.

Back when WvW was alive you did your 'serious' play in your guild, then after your guild raid you did a bit of zerging which was a lot more casual. And why wouldn't it be, I mean as a PvP experience goes zerging is about the most casual, low skilled and undemanding that you can get, it is very suited to casual PvP.

Conversely as a competitive form of PvP it is absolutely laughable, if some server goes tryhard mode at zerging. then what do you get, you get uncompetitive fights most of the time because you end up against servers that aren't tryharding (plus normally have a lot more inexperienced players) and then tryhard servers cries when some other server goes off after losing 3 fights, what else do they expect this is not rocket science.

Most people who have the wherewithal to breath through their nose and want skilled competitive PvP realised long ago that zerging in WvW is not the place to find it, yet after 6 years you still have some people trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. (but then I guess the talk about competitive PvP or good fights is just that, talk, anyone that genuinely wants that is not zerging about in WvW still)

[bq pd.2148]

@"Etheri.5406" said:So I turn to our only savior in this time of need. Toxicity. It's time to not carry players regardless of their actions. If they want loot, rewards and fun they'll be responsible for it themselves.

but you can perfectly survive and get alot of loot without contributing much. for example to rez mesmers inside enemy keeps under pressure of a fullzerg trying to avoid it, i have on my thief a full nomad set with mercy runes, that i ofc when normal roaming i dont use. but i could use that set and just spamm a little with my pony bow into an enemy zerg, this would get me loot and i only died once in that armor (fall damage) cause you need to be rather stupid to die as nomad thief. would i be contributing ? not really. but many people do exactly this, put enough stuff in build to survive but dont think about contributing.so now imagine a pug that is inexperienced, plays thief joins WvW and tries to stick along a zerg. as inexperienced probably from levelling/pve glass thief he will die alot and very quick. as a result he will face alot of toxicity. now there are 3 options that might happen*:

1. 'WvW sucks, i am outta here' - pretty common.
2. 'everyone so rude cause i die so ill go more tanky and survive, because surviving is good!' this leads to funny stuff like soldier staff eles - i could name you alot of soldier staff eles on german servers but unfortunatly the forum rules do not allow this.
   3. option is rather rare that a new player that maybe doesnt even have the resources to quickly swap class/gear will ask you what he should play as a beginner and how etc.IMO to get the 3. option its still better to be friendly towards players that do not fit into your group. because we need communication to keep new or casual players up to date and toxicity leads to many people stop listening. i mean its a game why would i bother with someone who will spew insults in the first chat, if i dont HAVE to get along with em? as the matchup is still not rewarded, there is zero reason why i would bother with someone else's interest, if they are being unfriendl.yes the organised group will see a pug that doesnt fit in as toxic aswell, but IMO they are only toxic if they insist on playing along the group while refusing to adapt when asked to. but they will often face toxicity before they are being asked to adapt at wich point they already are no longer listening. and i am not sure your intention is actually all of them to leave the game, because then i assume we wont have enough players anymore. we need our casual players because this mode needs people and we need these casual players to listen, so they can profit from the experience of the players that spent alot more time ingame. but facing them with toxicity for not adapting fast enough or not joining WvW on their first day with the experience others have gathered over 6 years, this will just make them stop listening and will make your issue worse.

*i assume you dont really expect a player that is new to WvW and started gw2 with its super casual open world design to actually think of asking what would be best on entering WvW.

[Lemoncurry.2345]

// Warning may contain traces of sarcasm

You can't teach an old dog new tricks. A lot of hardcore PPK-sytle-players have left the game. How many mainly fight-oriented servers do we have left in the EU right now? Maybe four? On the rest of the servers a huge part of the population is happy to "win" a matchup by simply having better coverage. You can keep playing what you want and how you want this way. You don't have to change the style you are used to six years into the game. Just log on during offtime and lead your server to victory. Let the elitist GvG-guys do their thing during primetime, those four hours of mayhem don't do much to the total skirmish point count.

The only thing that matters are playhours (even with the new alliance system), so it is actually beneficial to spread out in order to maximize skirmish wins per playhour. After all, because this is the way the gamemode is designed, it clearly must be the only proper way of playing it.

// Some German-servers-specific thoughts - please skip if not interested

@"Etheri.5406" said:I'll start by stating I think german servers, part due to culture (server culture, german culture or both?) are a LOT better than most. They are very organised and community driven. At least that's my opinion from kodash and riverside; which had plenty of players willing to swap and organise. Playing on international (and many national) servers is very different. There are servers on which you can reliably get a queue, a 50 man zerg yet you'll get under 30 in squad, and virtually none of them playing any classes you need. 50 man zergs with 1 firebrand don't work; but they do exist.I think your impression is influenced by the experiences you made on Riverside. That server is an exception regarding zerg-culture. Yes, on Kodash you can have that ideal zerg.setup sometimes. Unfortunately the server is plagued by a constant clash between the as you call it "hardcore casuals" and the PPK-players which pretty much broke it's back. This led so far that a second community-TS was created by a more casual-style guild some time ago (not much in use though). Elona is comparable to Kodash with more PPT nowadays (and less clash and a stricter TS regime), while Abaddon, Dzagonur, Miller and Drakkar mostly cater to the PPT-oriented player and aren't particulary famous for their zerg-fighting.

[Etheri.5406]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:So players en-masse continue to pretend WvW is openworld casual PvE where regardless of what you do, you're "helping" and you won't influence the outcome of the fight much. Except where the whole premise isn't true.

I'd say it is you that have it the wrong way round.

Back when WvW was alive you did your 'serious' play in your guild, then after your guild raid you did a bit of zerging which was a lot more casual. And why wouldn't be, I mean as a PvP experience goes zerging is about the most casual, low skilled and undemanding that you can get, it is very suited to casual PvP.

Sorry but, these part "zergs" were much more casual friendly because they were community based. Being casual didn't stop players from getting on voice, trying to improve, trying to work as a team with their allies rather than insisting they do their thing. Pre HoT T1-T3 EU, you'd have 70-80% of your zerg in TS without that much issues. You'd have reasonable setups even if you need 2 (!) guards per party. And even casual players were expected to make an effort.

Nowadays, unless you're on a german server or a toxic server kicking everyone who doesn't cooperate, that's impossible. I can name T1-T3 EU servers where you will get no more than 20-30% on TS on regular days. Where you'll get less than 50% of your zerg playing something half decent. It was only on low tier servers that situations were like they are now. And these low tier servers already, permanently, had the same struggles as we do. Every high-end guild leaves becauase it's unplayable. In due time most commanders ragequit becauase there simply isn't a community to support them or play with. There is no progress, improvement and often even ability to direct players as they refuse to listen.

I remember casual blobs making pushes into garries, doing portalbombs, doing full condi raids back when condi is bad, doing WAY too many drunk raids, ... The players on these drunk raids weren't amazing players, they were awful AND drunk. But they were playing together and having fun. They were even trying to improve. Nowadays you sit on voice alone with 40 silent players around you, not listening, not responding or doing anything you say. Are you suprised I'm calling out to kick every single one of them in favor of those that will interact with you? I'm not.

Conversely as a "competitive" form of PvP it is absolutely laughable, if some server goes tryhard mode at zerging. then what do you get, you get uncompetitive fights most of the time because you end up against servers that aren't tryharding (plus normally have a lot more inexperienced players) and then tryhard servers cries when some other server goes off after losing 3 fights, what else do they expect this is not rocket science.

No anet metric can fix coverage issues better than competing servers.Nothing will place PPTers, fight guilds, scouts and defenders on the same line except by giving them a common goal.You will never ever make players care about winning, server strength and pride without a common goal / competitiveness.

This is something ANET has to do. And I am talking about a competitive system, where you are rewarded for winning and cannot simply move to the winning side for 10$.

I'm not saying the game will suddenly become crazy hardcore. It will never. I'm saying it is possible to have the "strongest servers" win and the "weakest servers" down towards the bottom. To have casual groups fighting eachother in lower tiers, and more hardcore groups fighting eachother in higher tiers. PvP in GW2 isn't crazy competitive, but it still devides players based on "skill". Current PPT system does not divide players based on skill or coverage balance very well.

Either way, this is a dream which will never happen. Anet thinks it's better to avoid competitive to cater to casuals, even if giving hardcore players goals that are nowhere near those of casuals makes it worse for both groups. That's my opinion.

Most people who have the wherewithal to breath through their nose and want skilled competitive PvP realised long ago that zerging in WvW is not the place to find it, yet after 6 years you still have some people trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

Repeat this about GW2 in general; and yet it turns out GW2 is one of the best MMORPG's for competitive PvP due to combat, equality of gear and so forth. I'm not asking for crazy high skill zergs; you seem to misunderstand competitive.

Right now, I want my server to LOSE the matchup. Yet half the pugs want to win because you're supposed to win, right? So... no leads, we accidently lose a lot of stuff because truthfully, we're gunna lose. What I want and what the pugs want is completely different. Turning the game competitive won't make the pugs or me more "hardcore". It does give us a common goal of wanting to win. And if you want to PPT? You need roamers, and scouts, and zergs, and fight guilds, and bad pugs to PPT all day. All with a common goal. Altho, this requires some PPT rebalance because it's currently WAY out of whack. I do think that servers were vastly more balanced based on competitiveness than based on anet linking them on population alone. I remember fighting across 4 maps every reset, with 3/4 maps having casual zergs fighting eachother for hours. Nowadays I see 4 queues and a lot of "EB no commander??? wtf is reset no comm????" :trollface:

[Tiawal.2351]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Tiawal.2351" said:Most of us are just running away, because we had enough of all this. Trying and failing so many times, until realizing how hopeless it is: one can never unite a team, without at least a single COMMON GOAL. Why unite? Why work together?

It may sound crazy, but for many of the comms and veteran players the goal is to play together and have fun. Log in, have some banter and play the game, log out. Hence why having massive amounts of players refusing to interact but insisting on joining is so harmful. It means my community players log in, get faced with a 1-2 hour queue and log out. For anyone that leads EB during prime, having more players in queue than players on discord isn't unheard of. Yet somehow magically you have this giant "cloud" around you. Fun how that works.

I know that there is still fun, sometimes, found in different ways. But that can't be an excuse for what is happening. Vets and newbies, hardcores & casuals, fighters and PPT players, all these need a reason to work together, to adjust to each other, to tolerate the differences, to help out each other, so in the end all of them to have a fun time, instead of the constant bickering, or the toxicity you talk about, which could be a short term workaround, but certainly a failure in the long-term.

The reason was once: surviving, improving, winning -- together. Because there was that belief that winning matters. That improving as a team will make the game more fun for all. That we can't give up.Now all that is lost, because we are no longer a team. We don't belong to something worth fighting for. We are divided.

The game needs a purpose. Win must matter. A win shouldn't be a punishment, as it is now: just makes your server closed, condemned to slow death, filled by those who want to feel the win, without contribution. There has to be a reason for everyone wanting to improve, contribute, and not just leech. The game must remember those who contribute, reward those who do. Otherwise it is pointless to even try. Self-interest rules? It's the result of game design. The fix must start there: rewarding useful contribution and not useless participation.

[Rysdude.3824]

The tone of this thread, and the conversations themselves, perfectly highlight why WvW is the mess it is today.

Id have to agree with Dawdler as I see there are lines being drawn by both PPTers and so called “fight” players. It’s been happening for a while now. In my fight guild, PPT and those that enjoyed it were ridiculed and lashed out at. In my casual, more PPT inclined guild, they never bothered to fight the “fighters” and instead chose to just backcap, in turn, enhacing this self induced superiority complex fight people have and in turn, making the server more toxic because people didn’t choose to fight them or play their way.

A cycle i think will be solved if/when Anet changes the fundamentals of WvW will be determined by the formula for winning.

[bq pd.2148]

@Lemoncurry.2345 said:// Some German-servers-specific thoughts - please skip if not interested

@"Etheri.5406" said:I'll start by stating I think german servers, part due to culture (server culture, german culture or both?) are a LOT better than most. They are very organised and community driven. At least that's my opinion from kodash and riverside; which had plenty of players willing to swap and organise. Playing on international (and many national) servers is very different. There are servers on which you can reliably get a queue, a 50 man zerg yet you'll get under 30 in squad, and virtually none of them playing any classes you need. 50 man zergs with 1 firebrand don't work; but they do exist.I think your impression is influenced by the experiences you made on Riverside. That server is an exception regarding zerg-culture. Yes, on Kodash you can have that ideal zerg.setup sometimes. Unfortunately the server is plagued by a constant clash between the as you call it "hardcore casuals" and the PPK-players which pretty much broke it's back. This led so far that a second community-TS was created by a more casual-style guild some time ago (not much in use though). Elona is comparable to Kodash with more PPT nowadays (and less clash and a stricter TS regime), while Abaddon, Dzagonur, Miller and Drakkar mostly cater to the PPT-oriented player and aren't particulary famous for their zerg-fighting.

but those issues between hardcore casuals and PPK peeps just started because other servers got better so the ones better at fighting got toxic towards the more casual ones, blaming them for losing instead of trying to keep it civil and teach them more. and as you know some of those you call 'hardcore casual' actually think themselves good, because they no longer listen (for example that soldier staff ele commander , you know who i mean :) ). we might be past the point to actually reach those players to teach them even minor things that would improve their performance alot.riverside is probably first EU toxic server, thats made their group comp bretty good. there were many german players in EU and as Riverside turned toxic there was a lot of movement rather casuals leaving riverside and some more elitist joining riverside. i for example left riverside back then because some of their toxic commanders also didnt want any roamers on the map as that would mean their zerg has lower possible numbers wich may lead to a loss. because winning zerg fights is everything and it is super efficient to run one monoblob on the map without any roamers..i simply didnt agree with that.

[metalTiffy.7106]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

This pushes new or casual commanders away before they even begin. The community pushes them away. Because if you aint a fight commander you're a filthy pleb.

This is not true, not on our server. Im a newbie commander that still needs to learn a lot about fighting and i got people following me. A few fight proof comms run with me abd gave me feedback and helped me a lot.

[Tiawal.2351]

@metalTiffy.7106 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

This pushes new or casual commanders away before they even begin. The community pushes them away. Because if you aint a fight commander you're a filthy pleb.

This is not true, not on our server. Im a newbie commander that still needs to learn a lot about fighting and i got people following me. A few fight proof comms run with me abd gave me feedback and helped me a lot.

That is great, and shows that there are still players out there who want to work together. It's just a minority sadly, a dying breed, something that WvW badly needs, but isn't encouraged by the system and something that needs to be fixed by the dev team.

Everything is more fun when it is shared with others. Even a loss, the long road to getting better together, and in the end, the well deserved win. Then remembering how all started and helping newbies, so they can join us.