Early look at the new meta

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

That is absolute rubbish. Introducing easier rotations with similar or better performance (even on the same class between for example specs) is nothing but power creep.With better performance, yes. That's not what happened here. Thief doesn't have better performance than some classes pre-nerf. Actually, the top performance now is a bit lower than before.

@Cyninja.2954 said:This can be seen ad absurdum when people where using the dps bug on thief to get their achievements. No one went in and said, oh let's take Soulbeast with their flametrap bug (which too made things easier). People went strait for the easiest solution to their desired result.That's the difference in dps, not the rotation itself. If one build has a dps an order of magnitude greater than all others, you'd be stupid to not take it. People that used it would have taken that option even if the rotation was much more complex. Or if the bug manifested on any other class. The dps advantage was just way too great to overlook.You can't really compare thief with the dps bug with flametrap-bugged soulbeast and try to claim people preferred one over the other due to rotation. Not if you want to be taken seriously anyway.

[Feanor.2358]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's not just about moving out of the fields, although there is that. And yeah, in raids it is not as pronounced. But having played "auto-targeted" builds also, I've come to >realize the ground target is a factor. I will often misplace a Lava Font horribly simply because I lost my cursor in the mess of circles and particles. It's something that never >happens on a ranger for instance simply because there is no targeting at all there. You press the button and the attack flies straight to the target. All you need to do is press >Tab once and you're good for the whole fight.

Oh okay. Get yolomouse. Should work better that way.

Ya, I have it, but I can't make myself use the horrendous functional cursors so I use a library with GW2-like ones. It helps, but I still lose it sometimes.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

That is absolute rubbish. Introducing easier rotations with similar or better performance (even on the same class between for example specs) is nothing but power creep.With better performance, yes. That's not what happened here. Thief

doesn't

have better performance than some classes pre-nerf. Actually, the top performance now is a bit lower than before.

See what I wrote about this in my next reply:Power creep can happen not only at the top end. Making things so much easier that via balance and change you make it easier for classes to achieve top performance is power creep in the mid and low spectrum.

[Belorn.2659]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"nsleep.7839" said:Can't wait until they fix Meteor Shower and Elementalist is absolute garbage.

Also, Cyninja, Matthias isn't a "condi favored" boss, it favors classes that can do their full rotation while moving and/or will lose minimal uptime because of mobility when doing mechanics, which D/D Deadeye happens to be.

I didn't feel to elaborate as to why Matthias favors condi builds, that is obvious to most experienced raiders. Now take a look at which classes make up the top 10 rank wise on that boss. It's:

• Soulbeast (condi)
• Deadeye (power)
• Renegade (condi)
• Mirage (condi)
• Firebrand (condi)
• Daredevil (condi)
• Soulbeast (power)
• Engineer (condi)
• Scourge (condi)
• Holosmith (power)

I'm not even going to bother putting up the may 8th ranking since those favor condi builds even heavier. So yes, condi classes seem to be less movement affected (since the boss will walk out of aoes etc.). Sure it does matter which mechanic and why a boss favors condi versus power. Doesn't change the fact that thief is way way way out there.

Because of the two DPS bugs in regard to SB and DE, I strongly recommend to hover over the class to see how many data points raidar has and also look at the leaderboard for examples of the fastest runs. There is several hints that the SB data for the 99th percentile is bug related, one being that none of the leaderboard runs show any such dps from SB, and the second is that the difference between 99th percentile and 50th is massive with almost 200% difference.

I wish raidar would do resets once bugs like this is patched but sometimes they don't. Thankfully the leaderboard data has a timestamp.

[Dadnir.5038]

When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

[Feanor.2358]

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /s

[Astralporing.1957]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.It is more difficult than 2 buttons. With those, you won't get even to those 34-35k you said would be okay.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

You do realize they aren't in such numbers to be statistically significant, right?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

You do realize they aren't in such numbers to be statistically significant, right?

A single such log isn't really that significant, true, but a 10 of them? 20?(hint: it's an increase of ~100 per single such log. More if there were autoclickers involved (top dps i saw someone pull off from that bug was over 3 mil))

[Belorn.2659]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.It

is

more difficult than 2 buttons. With those, you won't get even to those 34-35k you said would be okay.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

Lets take a hard look at Gorseval.

Average DPS on DE is the average of 610 players and comes out to 17k. top 99th percentile is the average of the top 6 players and comes out to 22k.Weave average of 368 players and comes out to 13k. 99th percentile is the top 4 players and they average to 19k. lets now take a look at the leaderboards.

Top fastest run for Gor: https://gw2raidar.com/encounter/RespondEvidentlyAspectsArrowHabitsNotice the timestamp of 2018-07-19 21:44:35Now lets take second fastest Gor run: https://gw2raidar.com/encounter/FestivalMuttersDrunkCityElectricalNotice the timestamp of 2018-07-16 20:35:11

Remember to look at the boss dps and not the cleave. Conclusion, the data looks actually quite good for Gorseval. The top run has two players hitting 23 and 24k, which is reasonable within the space for the 99th percentile for DE. The two weavers of the second fastest hits 19k and 18k. I will claim that the Gorseval data for DE is clean and unaffected by the DE bug.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

You do realize they aren't in such numbers to be statistically significant, right?

A single such log isn't really that significant, true, but a 10 of them? 20?(hint: it's an increase of ~100 per single such log. More if there were autoclickers involved (top dps i saw someone pull off from that bug was over 3 mil))

All the bug samples would fall into the 99th percentile and if they had enough numbers to affect the data you would see 99th being disproportionately larger than the others. Instead, 99th, 90th and 50th all show the same ~50% advantage over weaver.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /s

And I'm sure that weaver having more dps than other before had nothing to do with it's popularity either. /sTechnically on large target, weaver have roughly the same damage potential than DE. So what? Do all other professions have to ask for their aoe skills to deal more damage on large target so that they can fairly compete against weaver?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.It

is

more difficult than 2 buttons. With those, you won't get even to those 34-35k you said would be okay.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /sYou do realize that raidar stats currently include those runs with 500k+ dps from bug?

Lets take a hard look at Gorseval.

Average DPS on DE is the average of 610 players and comes out to 17k. top 99th percentile is the average of the top 6 players and comes out to 22k.Weave average of 368 players and comes out to 13k. 99th percentile is the top 4 players and they average to 19k. lets now take a look at the leaderboards.

Top fastest run for Gor:

https://gw2raidar.com/encounter/RespondEvidentlyAspectsArrowHabits

Notice the timestamp of 2018-07-19 21:44:35Now lets take second fastest Gor run:

https://gw2raidar.com/encounter/FestivalMuttersDrunkCityElectrical

Notice the timestamp of 2018-07-16 20:35:11

Remember to look at the boss dps and not the cleave. Conclusion, the data looks actually quite good for Gorseval. The top run has two players hitting 23 and 24k, which is reasonable within the space for the 99th percentile for DE. The two weavers of the second fastest hits 19k and 18k. I will claim that the Gorseval data for DE is clean and unaffected by the DE bug.

Leaderboards do seem to be unaffected. They also show numbers that are below averages from general stats, which suggests there's something that inflates those.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Apparently this thread has tons of "DE is too easy, nerf it plz" while forgetting how conditional its dps is. First and foremost, DDs and d/d DE are actually noticeably more difficult to pull full DPS than what people say.DDs require precise dodging or there will a dps loss from missing hits and they also require dodging at least once in every 4 secs to keep up dps buffs. Doing those aren't easy on small hitbox bosses, even more so if they move. Unless you're really good at movement on DD, it will do bad dps.And deadeye...just to remind, it has 3 conditions to do superior DPS.

1. Good boon uptimes. If you have bad supports (which is quite often the case according to Kitty's 600 pug kills), it's already 3-5% DPS nerf right there.
2. Lots of conditions on boss. If your squad is mostly power, you can already expect 6-10% dps nerf right there.
3. Perfect flanking. If you accidentally use Backstab from front or boss suddenly faces your way when you're about to Backstab, it's a huge dps loss right there. It's some real torture trying to Backstab bosses that frantically turn all the time (Sab, Matt, no kite Cairn, Sam when it swings) or if tank doesn't know their stuff, also causing the boss to turn like a Grizwhirl (often a case at Sloth, Sam if some dps gets fixated and VG, Gors and MO if chronos are bad). Even better if you get fixated at KC, Sam or Sloth, 30s revealed right there (DPS death during burn phase).

Only if those 3 conditions are fulfilled, deadeye does superior boss DPS. Easy with experienced raiders if you know how to flank. Way more difficult or even impossible with some pug groups.

[Vinceman.4572]

Kitty, what people like you forget is, yes, players won't hit the top dps benchmark numbers from the golem but they also don't achieve(d) it with weavers etc. anyways. Still, if you're going into a raid/fractal/open world scenario and your skill level hasn't significantly changed over the past days, you will do a lot more dps with this brainless rotation even though it's not the optimum. And that's the reason why it is favored by so many players right now.I can easily execute 25k dps on certain bosses without having to care about a rotation and that number will put me to the top in most pug runs - and it's enough to have a good phasing & killing time. Even Mirage pre-patch was harder for me personally.

[Feanor.2358]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:When quoting a raidar, don't forget that DE is the PvE FotM spec. It's rumored having the best dps and for a lot of raiders it's a novelty to have thiefs in raids. So you're more compelled to use it than other spec. When talking about popularity never forget that there is more than just dps, there is also the taste of novelty and joy to have something new and effective to try out.

Ya, I'm sure it having 50% more damage on average than weaver has nothing to do with its popularity. /s

And I'm sure that weaver having more dps than other before had nothing to do with it's popularity either. /sTechnically on large target, weaver have roughly the same damage potential than DE. So what? Do all other professions have to ask for their aoe skills to deal more damage on large target so that they can fairly compete against weaver?

Sure. But don't forget asking to have their damage output made as unreliable and as dependent on your party as weaver's. So, you know, they can compete fairly against weaver.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.It

is

more difficult than 2 buttons. With those, you won't get even to those 34-35k you said would be okay.

Irrelevant, the 2-button example is already to powerful (and the rotation is not that much harder even if you execute it perfectly).

The significant factor is that the rotation is vastly easier than comparable rotations of similar output on other classes/builds and significantly more powerful than classes with as simple a rotation. That's what matters.

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:See, that's just it. People should be able to play what they like and get reasonable results for the effort involved. Why would optimality be the measure?

So you dont tink that 38k on Weaver is a resonable result for the effort involved?

No, because you can't pull this number on a small hitbox and most enemies

are

small/medium. So you're looking at 33-34k. 5-6k less than DE for so much more effort isn't reasonable, no.

Interesting idea about recharging initiative on weapon swap btw. People seem to be polarized on this, but the "forced swap" resource management is an aspect of the gameplay I really enjoyed on rev.

On small hitbox ele is still somewhat competitive with all the second rate builds. As for the forced swap for initiative i really dig the idea, anything that will make thief more complex to play

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Personaly I am ok with dd having this amount of dps (since he sacrifice on other fronts) but i am not ok with that easy rotation. Eaither lower dps to 34-35k or make it more dificult then 2 buttons.It

is

more difficult than 2 buttons. With those, you won't get even to those 34-35k you said would be okay.

Irrelevant, the 2-button example is already to powerful (and the rotation is not that much harder even if you execute it perfectly).

The significant factor is that the rotation is vastly easier than comparable rotations of similar output on other classes/builds and significantly more powerful than classes with as simple a rotation. That's what matters.Only at the perfect execution level. Go down a bit, and it's equal (or even inferior at places) to double bow SB and mirage.

[Feanor.2358]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:See, that's just it. People should be able to play what they like and get reasonable results for the effort involved. Why would optimality be the measure?

So you dont tink that 38k on Weaver is a resonable result for the effort involved?

No, because you can't pull this number on a small hitbox and most enemies

are

small/medium. So you're looking at 33-34k. 5-6k less than DE for so much more effort isn't reasonable, no.

Interesting idea about recharging initiative on weapon swap btw. People seem to be polarized on this, but the "forced swap" resource management is an aspect of the gameplay I really enjoyed on rev.

On small hitbox ele is still somewhat competitive with all the second rate builds. As for the forced swap for initiative i really dig the idea, anything that will make thief more complex to play

Yeah, take all the downside to be competitive with kitless holo and sb/sb sb. Yay us, right?

[nsleep.7839]

MS is getting fixed, then Elementalist will be dead since meteor is ~25% of it's damage in smaller hitboxes. Pretty cool that a class that's glassy, zero utility, zero CC will get to deal the same raw damage than a Warrior with almost the double base health, more armor, while giving Bbanners and CC to the group.

Well, to be honest, this is just another reason for me to add to the list of why I haven't played PvE in this game in months.

[Feanor.2358]

@nsleep.7839 said:MS is getting fixed, then Elementalist will be dead since meteor is ~25% of it's damage in smaller hitboxes. Pretty cool that a class that's glassy, zero utility, zero CC will get to deal the same raw damage than a Warrior with almost the double base health, more armor, while giving Bbanners and CC to the group.

Well, to be honest, this is just another reason for me to add to the list of why I haven't played PvE in this game in months.

Also worth noting that a skill on a long cooldown that roots you in place and cancels your dodges will deal damage comparable to your filler skills. Pretty cool, huh?

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Kitty, what people like you forget is, yes, players won't hit the top dps benchmark numbers from the golem but they also don't achieve(d) it with weavers etc. anyways. Still, if you're going into a raid/fractal/open world scenario and your skill level hasn't significantly changed over the past days, you will do a lot more dps with this brainless rotation even though it's not the optimum. And that's the reason why it is favored by so many players right now.I can easily execute 25k dps on certain bosses without having to care about a rotation and that number will put me to the top in most pug runs - and it's enough to have a good phasing & killing time. Even Mirage pre-patch was harder for me personally.

This still implies that it should somehow be relevant to damage whether or not a rotation is complex. Anet already put everyone (except poor Necros) near the ~35k to ~38k range, and players can now actually choose what they want without hurting the group simply for their choice (they will still hurt the group if they suck at their preferred class). What now? Why are people complaining about Weaver instead of demanding that core Engie get the highest DPS? I don't even know what the problem even is in this topic anymore since most of the people giving answers probably have a static and no worries about their weekly completion being hurt by their favorite rotation dropping from very high levels to high levels of dps.

[Aktium.9506]

@nsleep.7839 said:MS is getting fixed, then Elementalist will be deadisn't condi sword weaver bench at like 34k-35k dps

staff might be dead, but ele would still have a viable build