Normalizing Base HP

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

so when 11k hp classes don't have to gear for hp, what do you think happens to their power level? you don't think they would be op as hell? why not? what about warrior and necro, you think they'll be fine with less hp? necro definitely wont. warrior might be, but then they would probably be forced to take every defensive trait/utility and any build diversity would go out the window. not so different from now sure, but it still isn't right.

Not being

required

to take a vitality amulet/gear would open up

many

more builds for the 3 professions that it would affect. And no, it would not be OP, as the damage difference between zerk and marauder's is negligible.

So let me get this straight: according to your warped sense of logic - Killing the build diversity of

one

profession (which it absolutely would not), is far worse than opening up a plethora of new viable builds for

three

professions? Ok buddy.

have you considered effective hp, through heals/evades/protection and what not? have you seen videos of sword weavers/thieves/guards taking on 2+ people (pvp and wvw)? this hp buff would put those classes on an even more skewed playing field vs others. they don't need more hp. if there is some aspect about their survivability that needs addressing then we can address that, there is no need to just throw on a bunch more hp and see how it goes.

What you are referring to is skill ceiling vs. skill floor. Try again with either skill ceiling vs. skill ceiling or skill floor vs. skill floor, please.

alright. ill do the work for you again lol, but last time.

there are two other duels vs bik and zan. feel free to look for some videos by other people yourself.

my point about ceiling vs floor is that the losing side will feel like they have even less of a chance and that will make them wanna quit.

[felincyriac.5981]

I fully support this, just to see the reaction from the necro community. Lets bring everyone down to 11k ;)

[Turk.5460]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

so when 11k hp classes don't have to gear for hp, what do you think happens to their power level? you don't think they would be op as hell? why not? what about warrior and necro, you think they'll be fine with less hp? necro definitely wont. warrior might be, but then they would probably be forced to take every defensive trait/utility and any build diversity would go out the window. not so different from now sure, but it still isn't right.

Not being

required

to take a vitality amulet/gear would open up

many

more builds for the 3 professions that it would affect. And no, it would not be OP, as the damage difference between zerk and marauder's is negligible.

So let me get this straight: according to your warped sense of logic - Killing the build diversity of

one

profession (which it absolutely would not), is far worse than opening up a plethora of new viable builds for

three

professions? Ok buddy.

have you considered effective hp, through heals/evades/protection and what not? have you seen videos of sword weavers/thieves/guards taking on 2+ people (pvp and wvw)? this hp buff would put those classes on an even more skewed playing field vs others. they don't need more hp. if there is some aspect about their survivability that needs addressing then we can address that, there is no need to just throw on a bunch more hp and see how it goes.

What you are referring to is skill ceiling vs. skill floor. Try again with either skill ceiling vs. skill ceiling or skill floor vs. skill floor, please.

alright. ill do the work for you again lol, but last time.there are two other duels vs bik and zan. feel free to look for some videos by other people yourself.

my point about ceiling vs floor is that the losing side will feel like they have even less of a chance and that will make them wanna quit.

What is this unrelated video you are putting here expecting to back up your claims? You obviously have completely missed the point - me using the term "vs" doesn't mean what you may have thought it meant. A duel between two random players has no bearing on this discussion, which encompasses every profession vs. every profession. There's no need for you to repeat your initial argument once it's been countered. If you don't have anything new to add to the discussion, I thank you for your ...contribution?

[Neil.3825]

@Stand The Wall.6987 : I think elem's sword is the problem here. Cellofrag may be one of the best elem, if he plays dagger/dagger on this fight (or other weapon than sword) I think he will lose. But i may be wrong ?

[otto.5684]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:why is this even being considered? classes with the lowest hp pool, guard thief and ele, already have high survivability if played right. you cant just throw some random number out there and expect things to go ok. the entire profession design was built around this hp difference. instead of worrying about hp, consider smaller things that if buffed would bring the class into a better spot.

Thief is a different story, guardian and ele must use heavy HP and/or healing amulets. Ele in particular does shit damage. It only excels at side node trolling. Any guardian build not using retaliation, deals terrible damage. Guardian in particular, outside of FB bunker has mediocre sustainability.

From an overall perspective:

1) HP pools where designed with different balance objectives, that do not currently exist.2) even through HP pools stayed the same, damage went through major power creep stages. First, moving to 3 full trait lines. Then introduction of elite lines in HoT. Finally, PoF.3) All builds outside of warrior (maybe necro) must use amulets with HP.

If the HP pools moved as follows:

Small pools: 18kMedium pools: 19.5kLarge pools: 21k

This will be much more in line and way more balanced, considering that main current complaint regarding balance is that damage is too high. This also opens diversity so heavy damage amulets like: berserker, griver, rampage and viper, could see some use, instead of most builds using either marauder or carrion.

Lastly, the HP pools do not make sense in PvE on any leave whatsoever.

[crazyhusky.2985]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@crazyhusky.2985 said:You have the advantage in HP and tankness if you are a warrior...and you don't on necro.

So what's the problem? Too many passive defenses on warrior or different HP pools?

All three 11k HP classes would be overpowered without any doubt on higher base HP pools.Berserk Deadeye or Berserk Fresh Air Ele on 15K or 19k HP - sure, sounds great! Support Firebrand on 30K HP / 3k armor - why not!? ...

Nerco can be tanky due to second bar of HP, but it doesnt have many defensive traits to back it up unlike Warrior.The ones, it has tend to only effect with its attacking or in shroud, so you expect it have a boost of stats in shroud.Yes, it would hurt it a bit due to the Shroud is tie to the health. But the fact it has two health does make it tanky enough without seeming too overpowered so a little less HP for nerco would not hurt it much.

Berserk Fresh Air Ele might be strong when it gets going, however most of the time an elementalist would need to be able to set up and cast. There many ways to take out an ele before it can start. Secondly Ele still would be easy to take out if it is running Fresh air there wouldn't be any tankiness to it due to its build and it's light armour class meaning few good hits and it goes down, also due to it not having any healing power it can't recover that well if it does attune to water.

Support Firebrand would be tanky like warrior, however, It'll gives up most forms of damage to be supportive. At best they'll only be able to do sub-par damage to someone, Due to they will have Staff which on guardians doesn't do much damage, if they have Axe and shield as a secondary it'll lack attack power due to it not having any condition damage, if it's Mace and shield instead of Axe, Mace is the other healing weapon of guardian but mace is slow and It's healing isnt strong, In otherwords they'll struggle to take you out, best they can do is bunk on points until you swarm them and take them out. which is not gonna be hard because like elementalist it takes time to cast a Mantra before you can use it. Which gives you about 3 seconds to attack them before they'll able to use it and if you intrupt them they have to try and to re-cast it.

The only one I can see people having a problem with is Berserk Deadeye. It is pretty OP right now giving more HP would be bad,I would like for them to do an exchange, less damage from Malice and Stealth attacks in exchange for more HP to balance it out.So it gets more HP but itsn't able to 1-Hit KO people.

[crazyhusky.2985]

@michelada.2947 said:the gap can be reduced, maybe 13,15 and 17k hp would be fine

I do like this idea, however, I feel like this would be slightly would be better. Reduce the gap a bit more and increase the health a little.Thief, Guardian, Elementalist - 16.2K HPRanger, Rev, Mesmar, Engineer - 17.7K HPNecro and Warrior - 19.2K HP

Rather than lowering the HP Pools of the classes that have hight HP, why don't they Buff everyone elses HP's that has a lower Health pool than them.This way, there wouldnt be much of a gap between HP amoungst the classes, there would roughly be 1.5k between each HP pool.

Warrior and Nerco don't any lose any HP and they still get to have a larger Health pool that other classes.Guard, Ele and Thief would gain 5K HP. which is need espcially with Elementalist and Guardian.Ranger, Rev, Mesmar, Engineer they'll get slight HP increase as well of about 1.8k.

secondly with everyone having over 16K Health, this means that Zerk Builds and Deadeye's can't 1-hit Kill people as easily due to the increased Health pools.In wvw in pvp this would be a nice change.

Lastly I think this should be global change not just PvP or WvW or PvE but in ALL MODES OF THE GAME, Classes with low Health pools could benefit form this in general not matter what the mode, due to many bosses and boss mechanics in PVE can one-shot classes low base HP without any HP investment. In pvp and wvw it'll be a big change would shake wvw and pvp scences up a bit, might cause people to use new builds or old ones, you might start seeing more of the other classes and builds that you don't see much of.

[Ferus.3165]

normalised invis aswell plsand normalised insta cast spells too plsand not to forget normalised teleport spellsand normalised weapon skillsand normalised damage outputand... you know what? just delete all classes except for one. Or play counter strike.

[Turk.5460]

@Ferus.3165 said:normalised invis aswell plsand normalised insta cast spells too plsand not to forget normalised teleport spellsand normalised weapon skillsand normalised damage outputand... you know what? just delete all classes except for one. Or play counter strike.

Thanks for bumping the thread :)

[Solori.6025]

Wouldn't it be better for people to just vote and discuss this in your new thread?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52603/should-base-hp-be-normalized#latest

[Turk.5460]

@"Solori.6025" said:Wouldn't it be better for people to just vote and discuss this in your new thread?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52603/should-base-hp-be-normalized#latest

I posted this in two places to see the thoughts from the two game modes that this would affect. Also for more exposure since different ANET devs browse different forums. Put since it wouldn't be PvP only, or WvW only, two separate threads are appropriate.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

[alez.2137]

All the profession with similar hp and same dmg/heal in a frame time, direct or ramped up, and of course all inmunities, blocks and damage reductions changed to just barriers.

I support that idea.

[otto.5684]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

[sephiroth.4217]

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

do you honestly believe that?

name all the blocks a warrior has, Im certain that Guardian has more blocks by using passives than what a warrior has all up but prove me wrong please....

edit... missed your keyword of better. yea ok, full counter OP if people still attack it.

[otto.5684]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

do you honestly believe that?

name all the blocks a warrior has, Im certain that Guardian has more blocks by using passives than what a warrior has all up but prove me wrong please....

edit... missed your keyword of better. yea ok, full counter OP if people still attack it.

Let’s compare core guardian with SB.

Core guardian:

1) focus blocks 3 attacks with 35 sec CD.2) VoC 45 sec CD (38 secs traited) 1 aegis.3) renewed focus, 105 sec CD (80 some sec traited) 3 sec block, with no point contribution.

SB:1) 3 sec block with 20 sec CD.2) full counter, 10.5 sec CD.3) GS 3, 0.75 sec evade, with 10 sec CD.4) endure pain 2 sec, 30 sec CD.

This is a pretty large margin for SB, don’t you think?

Comparing with FB bunker is not a good comparison, cuz they are performing completely different roles and FB bunker does no damage. Even there, SB can arguably last longer under focus fire for a few seconds.

[babazhook.6805]

I have always maintained that this one of the most significant balance issues in game. Normalized Hit points can make balancing of all skills easier across the board.

Again warrior vs thief as example. Each in Zerker, an 8+ k HP advantage is huge right out of the gate meaning that the theif has to either do more damage per hit or have way more in the way of avoidance. When that same thief faces another 11k hp class that higher damage to face an 18k zerker does not suddenly go away.

[Crab Fear.1624]

15k health for all at this point.

stop playing weak core classes then. support anet.

[sephiroth.4217]

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

do you honestly believe that?

name all the blocks a warrior has, Im certain that Guardian has more blocks by using passives than what a warrior has all up but prove me wrong please....

edit... missed your keyword of better. yea ok, full counter OP if people still attack it.

Let’s compare core guardian with SB.

Core guardian:

1) focus blocks 3 attacks with 35 sec CD.2) VoC 45 sec CD (38 secs traited) 1 aegis.3) renewed focus, 105 sec CD (80 some sec traited) 3 sec block, with no point contribution.

SB:1) 3 sec block with 20 sec CD.2) full counter, 10.5 sec CD.3) GS 3, 0.75 sec evade, with 10 sec CD.4) endure pain 2 sec, 30 sec CD.

This is a pretty large margin for SB, don’t you think?

Comparing with FB bunker is not a good comparison, cuz they are performing completely different roles and FB bunker does no damage. Even there, SB can arguably last longer under focus fire for a few seconds.

seems odd to compare a core spec to an elite spec... redo the math with DH or FB or make the warrior core and then we can compare apples to apples

I noticed you didnt include the many traits guardian has that provide aegisand left out mace 3 which is very similar to full counter mechanics, it blocks and gives an aoe aegis.

[Schwahrheit.4203]

You're right, "identity" is not really a thing anymore. This game is legit just about spamming evades while attacking. May as well normalize HP because ANET refuses to understand what real "balanced and diverse game" is.

[crazyhusky.2985]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

do you honestly believe that?

name all the blocks a warrior has, Im certain that Guardian has more blocks by using passives than what a warrior has all up but prove me wrong please....

edit... missed your keyword of better. yea ok, full counter OP if people still attack it.

Let’s compare core guardian with SB.

Core guardian:

1) focus blocks 3 attacks with 35 sec CD.2) VoC 45 sec CD (38 secs traited) 1 aegis.3) renewed focus, 105 sec CD (80 some sec traited) 3 sec block, with no point contribution.

SB:1) 3 sec block with 20 sec CD.2) full counter, 10.5 sec CD.3) GS 3, 0.75 sec evade, with 10 sec CD.4) endure pain 2 sec, 30 sec CD.

This is a pretty large margin for SB, don’t you think?

Comparing with FB bunker is not a good comparison, cuz they are performing completely different roles and FB bunker does no damage. Even there, SB can arguably last longer under focus fire for a few seconds.

seems odd to compare a core spec to an elite spec... redo the math with DH or FB or make the warrior core and then we can compare apples to apples

I noticed you didnt include the many traits guardian has that provide aegisand left out mace 3 which is very similar to full counter mechanics, it blocks and gives an aoe aegis.

Mace 3 is similar to Full-counter but NOWHERE near as powerful or useful, Guard's Mace 3 the same as warrior's Mace Counterblow and it's Sword Riposte skill. it only gives aegis if it uses the counters, meaning its not a 100% that'll get the boons from it, Like Warrior's counter's Guardian has to be hit/block for it do the counter-attack part of mace 3. No one is going to hit someone when they can see they're about to counter-attack. If the SB is smart either he'll stop attacking and let the guardian waste 3 seconds doing the Mace 3 for it to fail, or hit from a distance then charge back in and break thru the aegis, or easier and simple option activate full-counter and hit him since Mace-3 only blocks one attack while is doing the counter-attack part of the skill it's vulernable to being hit.So this attack isn't something guardians can get aegis out of at will, and it not suitable to be used as a block, as this attack blocks only 1 thing leaves them wide open to multiple ranged attacks or a Zerg as soon as it over. 9/10 times you end up losing the aegis before the counter-attack is over because of multi-hitting attacks.

Valorous Defense (30 CD) are the traits you are asking for. The other aegis related traits of guard, give aegis to allies not itself.it has a 30 CD only happens stuck below 75% HP most pass it up.

But he also left out quite a few things of warrior, which actually makes have more blocking.warrior's triat of "Defy Pain" 60 sec CDShield Charge which is Shield 5 for Warrior straight up blocks for 3 secs with a 25 cooldown. (20sec CD with trait)Counterblow which is Mace 2(main hand) - its a counter like Guardians Mace 3 it blocks 1 attack then counters doesnt give any boons, however it can be cancelled for Adrenaline, 10 sec CDRiposte which is sword 5 (offhand) its a counter like Guardians Mace 3 it blocks 1 attack then counters doesnt give any boons, however it can be cancelled for Adrenaline. has 15sec CD and 12sec CD with the triat.and Bull charge that has 1.5 sec evade built into it - has 30sec CD (24 sec CD with triat)

SB can have Mace and shield and offhand sword. which leave guard with mace offhand focus and offhand shield.Anyway a Bunker SB vs Bunker Guardian fight I'd terms blocking, i'd say SB straight up wins. As much as I would guardian to, It's just outclassed.

[Buran.3796]

I disagree:

1) If you want a fully balanced game game then you'll need to remove 8 classes from the game mode, and maybe the two specs of the remaining one, because even in games as chess and go there's slight umbalances that favors the white player.

2) If any, the game should move towards less sustain, so people can one shot themselves instead of a boring meta in which point defenders are unkillable.

3) This game already had some dumb decission like removing the two-part amulet, removing the best sigils, removing the best runes, which ended in a very similar status as it has but only with much lower build variety; normalizing HP would make it even trashier.

[sephiroth.4217]

@crazyhusky.2985 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this would nerf classes that don't need it and buff classes that don't need it. this isn't a solution because it would create just as many problems as it would solve.

Can you tell me why Mirage and Holo deserve more HP than the 3 lowest? Or why Spellbreakers and Scourges deserve more than

everyone

? I'd like to hear what logic you have to justify that...

maybe by looking at how each class performs in a pvp scenario you can answer your own question.

Thanks, your statement only reinforces

my

argument. How about you actually answer the question this time instead of a failed attempt at dodging it?

I'll answer it then....

My Guardian has little base HP, I give it a build that involves Aegis spamming and a tonne of blocks via one way or another because that's a Guardians source of sustainability, I still come out on top in a lot of fights, throwing out large amounts of damage while also sustaining myself quite well with all my sources of blocks...

Now boost my health to that of a Warrior... See why it might not work out?

Regardless of HP pool, warrior has much better blocks and evades than guardian by quite a margin.

do you honestly believe that?

name all the blocks a warrior has, Im certain that Guardian has more blocks by using passives than what a warrior has all up but prove me wrong please....

edit... missed your keyword of better. yea ok, full counter OP if people still attack it.

Let’s compare core guardian with SB.

Core guardian:

1) focus blocks 3 attacks with 35 sec CD.2) VoC 45 sec CD (38 secs traited) 1 aegis.3) renewed focus, 105 sec CD (80 some sec traited) 3 sec block, with no point contribution.

SB:1) 3 sec block with 20 sec CD.2) full counter, 10.5 sec CD.3) GS 3, 0.75 sec evade, with 10 sec CD.4) endure pain 2 sec, 30 sec CD.

This is a pretty large margin for SB, don’t you think?

Comparing with FB bunker is not a good comparison, cuz they are performing completely different roles and FB bunker does no damage. Even there, SB can arguably last longer under focus fire for a few seconds.

seems odd to compare a core spec to an elite spec... redo the math with DH or FB or make the warrior core and then we can compare apples to apples

I noticed you didnt include the many traits guardian has that provide aegisand left out mace 3 which is very similar to full counter mechanics, it blocks and gives an aoe aegis.

Mace 3 is similar to Full-counter but NOWHERE near as powerful or useful, Guard's Mace 3 the same as warrior's Mace Counterblow and it's Sword Riposte skill. it

only

gives aegis if it uses the counters, meaning its not a 100% that'll get the boons from it, Like Warrior's counter's Guardian has to be hit/block for it do the counter-attack part of mace 3. No one is going to hit someone when they can see they're about to counter-attack. If the SB is smart either he'll stop attacking and let the guardian waste 3 seconds doing the Mace 3 for it to fail, or hit from a distance then charge back in and break thru the aegis, or easier and simple option activate full-counter and hit him since Mace-3 only blocks one attack while is doing the counter-attack part of the skill it's vulernable to being hit.So this attack isn't something guardians can get aegis out of at will, and it not suitable to be used as a block, as this attack blocks only 1 thing leaves them wide open to multiple ranged attacks or a Zerg as soon as it over. 9/10 times you end up losing the aegis before the counter-attack is over because of multi-hitting attacks.

Valorous Defense (30 CD) are the traits you are asking for. The other aegis related traits of guard, give aegis to allies not itself.it has a 30 CD only happens stuck below 75% HP most pass it up.

But he also left out quite a few things of warrior, which actually makes have more blocking.warrior's triat of "

Defy Pain

" 60 sec CDShield Charge which is Shield 5 for Warrior straight up blocks for 3 secs with a 25 cooldown. (20sec CD with trait)Counterblow which is Mace 2(main hand) - its a counter like Guardians Mace 3 it blocks 1 attack then counters doesnt give any boons, however it can be cancelled for Adrenaline, 10 sec CDRiposte which is sword 5 (offhand) its a counter like Guardians Mace 3 it blocks 1 attack then counters doesnt give any boons, however it can be cancelled for Adrenaline. has 15sec CD and 12sec CD with the triat.and

Bull charge

that has 1.5 sec evade built into it - has 30sec CD (24 sec CD with triat)

SB can have Mace and shield and offhand sword. which leave guard with mace offhand focus and offhand shield.Anyway a Bunker SB vs Bunker Guardian fight I'd terms blocking, i'd say SB straight up wins. As much as I would guardian to, It's just outclassed.

you use mace 3 the same way a SB would use full counter, by walking onto some random AOE.

well.... I didnt think Guardian would be seen as one of the classes that needed warrior base stats to compete but you have proven me wrong... I wouldnt mind the boost tbh, I just thought that having too much would be like the bunker meta all over again.

[Menyus.4610]

It is a very hard suggestion because:

Ele: - weaver has too mnay active defense, tempest would deserve a buff across with core

Mesmer: core base hp is fine, but the 2 elite does not deserve the medium hp pool especially mirage

Necro: Totally fine hp is their class mechanic

Ranger: Core, Druid fine, Soulbeast power creep does not deserve the medium hp pool but i would nerf its damage rather than its hp pool

Thief: would torally deserve a hp increase cos it sometimes dies in stealth when trying to move to its target but on the other hand condi brainless evade spam builds would rise so it would need a fix before that

Enginner: Core and scrapper yes, holo hell no, holo is extremely disgusting in pvp and in wvw

Guardian: Totally fine hp pool, its active and passive blocks sustains the class well

Revenant: needs no change hp wise, more hp would make them unkilablle beasts power vs power

Warrior: Tbh this class is nothing wiothout endure pain an utterly stupid and easy class to play that could be deleted fron the game by one trait/skill change we already saw this, core and berserker are fine with that hp(not really but let it be warrior players mostly noobs the class carries them) but spellbreaker nope nope nope

Conculison somone suggest to attach hp boost or debuff to elite specs good idea boy i support it

[Ferus.3165]

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Ferus.3165" said:normalised invis aswell plsand normalised insta cast spells too plsand not to forget normalised teleport spellsand normalised weapon skillsand normalised damage outputand... you know what? just delete all classes except for one. Or play counter strike.

Thanks for bumping the thread :)

np, this let's say "very questionable" idea will never get implemented though. have fun ;)