Personal DPS and other self-tracking

[Rfreak.6591]

A way to analyse myself would certainly be a way to improve myself, knowing how much I'm healing, dealing or losing damage, may it be from an unhealthy rotation or kiting or having to heal myself one way or another, even having just one that works solely on myself everywhere would be really helpful to understand what's going on.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm just glad at this point, this is purely an academic discussion. If we had a need or if Anet had a compelling reason to add DPS meters, we would likely have them. Luckily for us, raids can be completed without them and the ultimate measure of success isn't based on some presumption about any individuals performance in a team. ANet got it right ... it's the team that wins, so measuring any individuals' performance is unnecessary.

So if you are at gorseval and have 3 5k dps next gen players and 4 good ones that somehow manage to kill it in time you are still calling it a team effort?I would call it a 7man kill. And i pug quite often and meet this kind of 5k dps players regularly. And impossible to spot without meters because in theory all professions could have good dps. Multiple people in a pug being able to achieve 99% benchmark dps on a boss are not that common though. So it ends usually in multiple wipes or the group disbands without player changes.Tools to measure performance in any competetive game mode are needed or finding the blocker becomes just a guessing game.Even monster hunter has damage meters. Probably every game with damage values, hidden or not, will have damage meters.

[Rhyse.8179]

Eh. Forget DPS meters, just remove Raids. Problem solved.

[Zaklex.6308]

Personally, I have no interest in using one and it doesn't bother me if others do since I don't participate in the content that others "insist" people need DPS meters for. For the individual(s) claiming only 1% of the players base does Raids, you're off by about 4 - 9%, it's closer to 5 - 10%(leaning towards the higher percentage), though it might not seem like it you need to consider that there are both EU and NA servers and there are people in other areas of the world that play, mostly not during hours you might be around.

[Deepcuts.9740]

Lately even dps meters count for nothing :)Short example: 99CM we wipe at 1st boss.Some douche says something in the line of "Guard, do more dps" (hint I was the DH)The funny thing was that I was top dps according to ArcDPS.So either he was not running ArcDPS and thought the world of himself or I don't know what to say.

Conclusion: with or without dps meters, there are some weird people out there that will constantly try to blame anybody else but themselves. And there are lots of them.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Deepcuts.9740 said:there are some ... people out there that will constantly try to blame anybody else but themselves. And there are lots of them.Pretty much part of the human condition. We tend to prefer to find blame rather than work to address issues to prevent/avoid the problem later.

[Obtena.7952]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm just glad at this point, this is purely an academic discussion. If we had a need or if Anet had a compelling reason to add DPS meters, we would likely have them. Luckily for us, raids can be completed without them and the ultimate measure of success isn't based on some presumption about any individuals performance in a team. ANet got it right ... it's the team that wins, so measuring any individuals' performance is unnecessary.

So if you are at gorseval and have 3 5k dps next gen players and 4 good ones that somehow manage to kill it in time you are still calling it a team effort?I would call it a 7man kill. And i pug quite often and meet this kind of 5k dps players regularly. And impossible to spot without meters because in theory all professions could have good dps. Multiple people in a pug being able to achieve 99% benchmark dps on a boss are not that common though. So it ends usually in multiple wipes or the group disbands without player changes.Tools to measure performance in any competetive game mode are needed or finding the blocker becomes just a guessing game.Even monster hunter has damage meters. Probably every game with damage values, hidden or not, will have damage meters.

Call it whatever you want. That doesn't change how the game is designed. Nothing stops a team from 7 manning if they think the last three slots are going to be filled with noobs. If you want equal contributions from everyone in teams you are in, just keep worshiping the meta and play with other people that do as well. That has nothing to do with DPS meters ingame.

[Gop.8713]

Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

[Obtena.7952]

@Gop.8713 said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

I don't really get what that has to do with DPS meters though. People are claiming they want DPS meters to measure their performance, but there are other ways (or there are already those ways as 3rd party) without Anet having to do anything about it.

[ImTasty.2163]

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Seems like most of the people who have a solid understanding of their class/build and have decent-to-good-to-great-to-excellent fine motor skills all seem to love DPS meters because it helps gauge how well they're fulfilling a DPS role (someone will surely point out that 'it's not all about DPS' ... hopefully we don't need to point out the obvious).

Other folk, including people who are good or great at the game, don't care for them. Which is the default position to take going into this game, so, that's obviously more than acceptable/appropriate. Power to you if you don't like dps meters --- fine. But aside from the ones who simply don't care, there is a third group of people who vehemently oppose DPS meters - I would call this the insecure group. "I'm still playing a ranger in WvW zergs after 4 years of playing this game and you shouldn't judge me for having 2k damage/second on average in a zerg fight!" etc ... to be fair, no one deserves to be picked on for their damage - absolutely no one. But I think we are all in our rights to give them an uneasy eye, per-say. And power to anyone who wants to give an uneasy eye to the incompetent - that's OK too as long as they don't flame others or generally act unreasonably rude.

To complicate it, you could take a group of any 100 people, and the percent chance that at least one of those 100 people are going to be complete jerks is 100%. So, I predict in this thread we will see replies such as "yeah but in reality people who obsess of DPS meters DO flame others and are often rude about it", etc ... this is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion; I've seen my fair share of the opposite where more casual players go on absolute witch hunts because they were excluded from an activity that requires a certain level of competence.

tl;dr uncut wood, moving water, stagnant water, cut wood, sun, moon, whatever. Some run a meter, some don't, some get irate about it, some don't, everyone plays the same game.

Your third group isn't entirely true. I don't like DPS meters because I've had quite a few bad experiences revolving around them. I use to play WoW and I can't even count how many times a pug in LFR or dungeons completely stop because someone got mad that another person wasn't doing enough damage and those two decided to start arguing in the middle of the run. I also can't count how many times I've been in TeamSpeak twiddling my thumbs while someone was telling at some guy because his DPS was 2.3k off what the average was determined.

I don't like or want DPS meters simply because despite all the talks of "self improvement" it's really just inviting more venomous behavior into the game.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

It isn't that harder, instanced PvE is "only" for min-maxers, it's that min-maxers want to play with each other. So far, anyway, ANet has not established that people cannot play parts of the game with the like-minded. That would require an auto-matchmaking queue for such content, such as could be found in other games. The problem -- and it is a problem -- that Gop refers to is the tendency of some players to assume that any group forming ought to run as they want it to, even if they are not like-minded and even if the group starter posts the listing with a specific intent, whether that be a min-maxed or relaxed approach.

I don't really get what that has to do with DPS meters though. People are claiming they want DPS meters to measure their performance, but there are other ways (or there are already those ways as 3rd party) without Anet having to do anything about it.

That 3rd party tool is going to be the only option, unless the 3rd party programmers deviate from the ANet guidelines on such tools. If no acceptable 3rd party tool were to be available, ANet would have to make a decision as to whether they want a meter feature or not.

Still, players are free to ask for features they would like ANet to add to the game. After all, almost all of the features added since launch were player-requested.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

It isn't that harder, instanced PvE is "only" for min-maxers, it's that min-maxers want to play with each other. So far, anyway, ANet has not established that people cannot play parts of the game with the like-minded. That would require an auto-matchmaking queue for such content, such as could be found in other games. The problem -- and it is a problem -- that Gop refers to is the tendency of some players to assume that any group forming ought to run as they want it to, even if they are not like-minded and even if the group starter posts the listing with a specific intent, whether that be a min-maxed or relaxed approach.

I don't really get what that has to do with DPS meters though. People are claiming they want DPS meters to measure their performance, but there are other ways (or there are already those ways as 3rd party) without Anet having to do anything about it.

That 3rd party tool is going to be the only option, unless the 3rd party programmers deviate from the ANet guidelines on such tools. If no acceptable 3rd party tool were to be available, ANet would have to make a decision as to whether they want a meter feature or not.

Still, players are free to ask for features they would like ANet to add to the game. After all, almost all of the features added since launch were player-requested.

Or people can use the combat log option and do math themself like old days

[Obtena.7952]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

It isn't that harder, instanced PvE is "only" for min-maxers, it's that min-maxers want to play with each other. So far, anyway, ANet has not established that people cannot play parts of the game with the like-minded. That would require an auto-matchmaking queue for such content, such as could be found in other games. The problem -- and it is a problem -- that Gop refers to is the tendency of some players to assume that any group forming ought to run as they want it to, even if they are not like-minded and even if the group starter posts the listing with a specific intent, whether that be a min-maxed or relaxed approach.

That doesn't make sense. It's the responsibility of the player to find and team with people that are like-minded ... and there are tools that can make that happen.

I don't really get what that has to do with DPS meters though. People are claiming they want DPS meters to measure their performance, but there are other ways (or there are already those ways as 3rd party) without Anet having to do anything about it.

That 3rd party tool is going to be the only option, unless the 3rd party programmers deviate from the ANet guidelines on such tools. If no acceptable 3rd party tool were to be available, ANet would have to make a decision as to whether they want a meter feature or not.

Still, players are free to ask for features they would like ANet to add to the game. After all, almost all of the features added since launch were player-requested.

Yes, they can. Players also request many things that are never added, so it's not a foregone conclusion that if players request it enough, it's added. The fact is that if a player wants to team with like-minded people OR measure their performance in team instances, they can do both right now, without Anet sinking more resources into catering to these desires; there have been many discussions and good reasons put forward in the past on the pros and cons of these things.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@"Cynn.1659" said:Dps meters need to be removedDps meters are the worst thing that has happened to this amazing game. They ruin all the fun for real playerbase,not even 1% of the players finished even one raid boss. Raids and dps meters bring nothing but toxic elitism to the game. You can't even have fun in tier one fractals these days, as someone will be insulting you for the way you play. Raids need to go away and dps meters need to be banned. Real part of the playerbase that keeps the game running plays open world. It's the best kind of content this game has to offer.What does open world offer?

1. Joy of exploration.
2. Teamwork of overcoming challenges.
3. People helping each other.
4. Gathering of useful resources..
5. Feeling like you are part of the big world, striving to make a difference.

What do raids offer?

1. Toxic elitism that starts ruining the game for everyone.

What needs to change?Arena Net Must stop wasting time on developing raids for less than 1% of the playebase composed of nothing but toxic elitists. We could be getting new open world maps every 1,5 months if it wasn't being for the developer time wasted on developing content that nobody plays. And we can't even try to join that content, because toxic elitists will kick anyone for anything they don't like. Ever since raids were introduced, the quality of the game has been getting worse.

Arena Net please make this game great again, where we all can enjoy ourselves without being assaulted by toxicity from all angles.

You do realize you are being an elitist yourself by claiming raids are filled with nothing but toxic elitists (thank you for informing me that I am a toxic elitist because I raid; I wasn't aware of that yet...), by claiming that open world is where you find the "real" part of the playerbase. And how do raiders ruin your gaming experience if you only play open world and not raids? You sound like someone who once tried raids, didn't want to adjust to a different play style and is now taking out that frustration on the entire raid community. If your post shows anything it's negative bias and uninformed opinions. Raiders aren't just 1% of the playerbase. We aren't all toxic. We don't all use the dps meter to punish others who don't perform to whatever standards are set. Toxicity didn't enter the game with raids, nor with dps meters. Toxicity entered the game when people entered the game. It's been here long before even HoT came out. Min/maxers will always be part of a gaming community, because some people like to squeeze out every little bit of potential they can muster up, find the best gear, the best skill combinations, etc. It's a mindset that does not automatically mean these people are toxic. Even preferring not to play with certain people is not toxic. Based on your post and perspective on what makes GW2 great to you, I wouldn't want to play with you. And there's nothing toxic about that. Toxic is the way you express your views and opinions, and those expressions have been in the game since dungeons were an active part of the game. I would just kindly say "No, thank you", because it doesn't take a genius to figure out that your perspective will clash with most raiders' perspective, because you both play different kinds of content in different ways. And just so you know, you can have fun and efficient clears at the same time. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

If you don't want to be "assaulted" by toxicity you'd best become a hermite. Where there are people, there are assholes, and so toxicity. Don't blame the game or the content, blame the people who exhibit such behavior. It says everything about them, and nothing about the game.

Raids are developed by a team of literally a handful of people, out of a total team of 200 (last time I checked). ANet even posted how many devs they have and how big each team is and what they're working on. You seem to be unaware of all of this, because your post is clearly driven by emotions, not facts. It's evident from the way you phrase things. I would love for you to provide proof for all the claims you make in your comment, but I doubt you have any tangible proof for any of it.

And just so you know: raids offer the joy of exploration, raids are teamwork and overcoming challenges, raids are people helping each other and they do make me feel like I'm part of a big world, striving to make a difference. Of course not everyone is like this, just like your open world is not the be-all-and-end-all you claim it to be. I've encountered toxicity in open world maps as well, but I don't go around claiming open world is all toxicity. I use a dps meter, but I don't go and use them to punish others for not being good enough by whatever standard. Maybe if you do your homework and write an unbiased comment, you could actually be part of this conversation. Right now it's no surprise that your comment is mostly not being taken seriously. History has shown us time and again that generalizing people never gives an accurate portrayal of reality. Individuality makes sure of that.

[solemn.9670]

@"ImTasty.2163" said:I don't like or want DPS meters simply because despite all the talks of "self improvement" it's really just inviting more venomous behavior into the game.Respectfully, refer to the last portion of my post.

@"me" said:To complicate it, you could take a group of any 100 people, and the percent chance that at least one of those 100 people are going to be complete jerks is 100%. So, I predict in this thread we will see replies such as "yeah but in reality people who obsess of DPS meters DO flame others and are often rude about it", etc ... this is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion; I've seen my fair share of the opposite where more casual players go on absolute witch hunts because they were excluded from an activity that requires a certain level of competence.

Also ... have you ever been in a group project in post-secondary school? You know that one person who just doesn't bloody do anything at all, and comes in at the last second with a title page like "look I did something"? Yeah that's the ranger in your group doing crap-per-second damage in a context where skill is required. If you're playing DPS in fractals, raids, or competitive wvw, it might be a good idea to actually bring some DPS. I don't get how that is toxic. I wouldn't hire someone who can't do the job nor would I want to work with someone who can't do their job. You don't have a job if you can't do your job, that's how it works, no ? I didn't bother with t4 fractals until I took LITERALLY A FEW DAYS to learn a full rotation for a new build I was trying out, and once I was comfortable I was getting top-tier dps so I was like ok cool, I can do fractals now. I just don't understand how people can see how low their damage is and be like "ok yep I'm ready for t4s" --- ????????

[Obtena.7952]

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"ImTasty.2163" said:I don't like or want DPS meters simply because despite all the talks of "self improvement" it's really just inviting more venomous behavior into the game.Respectfully, refer to the last portion of my post.

@"me" said:To complicate it, you could take a group of any 100 people, and the percent chance that at least one of those 100 people are going to be complete jerks is 100%. So, I predict in this thread we will see replies such as "yeah but in reality people who obsess of DPS meters DO flame others and are often rude about it", etc ... this is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion; I've seen my fair share of the opposite where more casual players go on absolute witch hunts because they were excluded from an activity that requires a certain level of competence.

Also ... have you ever been in a group project in post-secondary school? You know that one person who just doesn't bloody do anything at all, and comes in at the last second with a title page like "look I did something"? Yeah that's the ranger in your group doing kitten-per-second damage in a context where skill is required. If you're playing DPS in fractals, raids, or competitive wvw, it might be a good idea to actually bring some DPS. I don't get how that is toxic. I wouldn't hire someone who can't do the job nor would I want to work with someone who can't do their job. You don't have a job if you can't do your job, that's how it works, no ? I didn't bother with t4 fractals until I took LITERALLY A FEW DAYS to learn a full rotation for a new build I was trying out, and once I was comfortable I was getting top-tier dps so I was like ok cool, I can do fractals now. I just don't understand how people can see how low their damage is and be like "ok yep I'm ready for t4s" --- ????????

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

[ATMAvatar.5749]

DPS meters make me a little sad, in that it inevitably results in skewed balance between classes to pacify the community. In the MMO's I've played that had DPS meters, PvE balance always resulted in equalizing class DPS across the board without regard for other factors like survivability and utility, and GW2 has been no exception to this.

That said, DPS meters are a reality that isn't going away, so if we're going to have to live with them, I would at least want them to be as accurate and versatile as possible. ArcDPS is a valiant effort, but it definitely has some warts.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

You're forgetting one thing here: time. Of course it's possible for a few people to carry the rest. And that is possible in both Fractals and Raids. It's not the difference between a fail and a kill. It's how long it takes to get that kill. Especially with repeatable content, you don't want to spend 10 minutes on a boss that can be killed in 3. And I'm not even talking about speed clears here (I don't bother with that personally). It's just a desire for efficient runs where you can do your thing without having to worry about keeping others alive, or taking 2 or 3 times longer than is necessary. So you want people who are up to par, not people who are still learning and/or struggling. That is a choice each and everyone of us makes, the choice whether we want to play with x person or we don't. It's not a complicated notion that people with different expectations will have different experiences, or that said expectations don't really mix that well.

Now the problem comes when people who possess great proficiency at something feel that makes them somehow better than others, and that it gives them the right to put others down for not being as particularly skilled in this one little thing. As if it somehow gives them the right to no longer be a decent and sociable human being, but an ass. These people don't need to be enabled by anything. Meta nor not, dps meter or not, these people will find something to justify their antisocial behavior anyway. Take away dps meters and nothing will change.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

It isn't that harder, instanced PvE is "only" for min-maxers, it's that min-maxers want to play with each other. So far, anyway, ANet has not established that people cannot play parts of the game with the like-minded. That would require an auto-matchmaking queue for such content, such as could be found in other games. The problem -- and it is a problem -- that Gop refers to is the tendency of some players to assume that any group forming ought to run as they want it to, even if they are not like-minded and even if the group starter posts the listing with a specific intent, whether that be a min-maxed or relaxed approach.

That doesn't make sense. It's the responsibility of the player to find and team with people that are like-minded ... and there are tools that can make that happen.

No need to preach to the choir, mate. Try getting that across to the players who:

• Join advertised anything-goes groups and attempt to enforce "meta" rules; or
• Join groups which advertise for meta/experienced/etc. when they know they don't meet the posted requirements.

[Obtena.7952]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

You're forgetting one thing here: time. Of course it's possible for a few people to carry the rest. And that is possible in both Fractals and Raids. It's not the difference between a fail and a kill. It's how long it takes to get that kill. Especially with repeatable content, you don't want to spend 10 minutes on a boss that can be killed in 3.

Again, this comes down to choosing who you play with, not DPS meters. If you want to kill a boss in three minutes, you don't sit around engineering a PUG group with the correct composition to do that for ten minutes. You simply don't PUG if you want to play highly optimized instance clears.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:Gw2 is supposed to appeal to a broad player base, which will include min/maxers. Anet keeps creating game modes to accommodate that group -- dungeons, then fractals, now raids -- but the gen pop keeps trying to horn their way in, which is fine. But you have to understand, that's their turf. That's what anet built those parts of the game for. So if you, like me, aren't into that then great, there are plenty of other ppl like us and we can do those modes on our own just fine. But the ppl who like to min/max want to min/max. Why not leave them be . . ?

Anet made the game for everyone ... if certain parts of the game were only for min/maxers, then only min/maxers would be able to be successful in those parts of the game. From where I sit, no part of the game does that; even raids have a significant enough range of success that you don't need to be a min/maxer to succeed doing it.

It isn't that harder, instanced PvE is "only" for min-maxers, it's that min-maxers want to play with each other. So far, anyway, ANet has not established that people cannot play parts of the game with the like-minded. That would require an auto-matchmaking queue for such content, such as could be found in other games. The problem -- and it is a problem -- that Gop refers to is the tendency of some players to assume that any group forming ought to run as they want it to, even if they are not like-minded and even if the group starter posts the listing with a specific intent, whether that be a min-maxed or relaxed approach.

That doesn't make sense. It's the responsibility of the player to find and team with people that are like-minded ... and there are tools that can make that happen.

No need to preach to the choir, mate. Try getting that across to the players who:

• Join advertised anything-goes groups and attempt to enforce "meta" rules; or
• Join groups which advertise for meta/experienced/etc. when they know they don't meet the posted requirements.

My apologies to you then. I believe Anet would do use a service if we could flag these kinds of options in LFT for instanced group content.

[Lunateric.3708]

I don't mind DPS meters, I love how delta has slowly refined his to a point it even became a solution to build templates (good enough or not is up to each player).

I think the community already adapted to them too.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Obtena.7952 said:

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

Its not about winning and losing. Nor for most people is it about having the most efficient speedclear.

Its about having smooth, non frustrating clears. I thoroughly enjoy raids when everyone fulfills their role in group and fights arent total chaos. I do not enjoy raiding when 1 or more people arent contributing anything to the group, causing messy fights, sometimes wipes, and the rest of the team having to pick up the slack.

If I could search for and guarantee I find only people who will contribute to the team in a raid without dps meters, and without KP/LI requirements, I would. As it stands now I cant because people lie or join groups they obviously arent suited for. DPS meters help me increase my own performance immensely so I know when im contributing and when I need to up my game. They also let me see whos contributing nothing and remove them.

[Obtena.7952]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

Its not about winning and losing. Nor for most people is it about having the most efficient speedclear.

Its about having smooth, non frustrating clears.

Ironically, that's exactly the build Necro excels at, even if it's not meta. Funny.

What does that have to do DPS meters? No DPS meter is going to help you achieve that.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

Except the problem with you analogy is that in raids, you either win or you don't and any individual's performance is irrelevant if you win ... or even if you lose. You guys are making an incorrect correlation here; The amount you win by is always the same; pushing a little harder doesn't get you more win.

Its not about winning and losing. Nor for most people is it about having the most efficient speedclear.

Its about having smooth, non frustrating clears.

Ironically, that's exactly the build Necro excels at, even if it's not meta. Funny.

It is meta on alot of bosses as 2nd healer for groups that need the extra support. It's not meta in groups that can clear with 1 healer.People dont generally ask for necro heal though as it lacks some of the utility that 2nd druid can offer, and people cant be bothered to restructure the group mid raid to ensure things like entangle on gorse or stuns on eye statue are covered.

[Obtena.7952]

That doesn't make sense; meta is about optimization ... groups that need the extra support are not close to meta. Necro carry build isn't meta in anything, because it's not optimal ever to have one.

Still, I don't see what this relates to DPS meters. We got sidetracked a little