Isn't Anet a bit too harsh to roamers?

[bq pd.2148]

@enkidu.5937 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:how do i breach the walls if i cant handle the defenders?before they arrive

how long do you need to kill the lords?

[geist.4126]

@"apharma.3741" said:The issue is that it shuts down your ability to escape roving bands of gankers as you are no longer able to stealth away because sentries mark you for so long. As I say increase the time it takes to reveal to 10s, it counters perma stealth but allows you to actually escape larger groups.

How mean. I wonder how other classes did that!

e: And thieves or mesmer have more "other" defenses than most builds too. I really don't see the point.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

not noticed a change tbh

[Aridon.8362]

I got that high quality organic non gmo salt.

[whoknocks.4935]

Solo roaming was always been tough to play.

And gankers are in the gamemode since always, people like to play easy mode and killing players 2vs1 up to 10vs1 with the excuse of contribution to the server.

And it's the people who choose to play this way, not anet, but definitely anet is encouraging this kind of ganking-focused playstyle.

The gamemode is not balanced around 1vs1s that's true, but still solo roaming is a great aspect of the gamemode, considering 90% of camps and sentries and dolyaks are taken or flipped by solo roamers.

In the end I don't see much change, still the same ganking skilless players and groups around the map.

[Riko.9214]

@whoknocks.4935 said:The gamemode is not balanced around 1vs1s that's true, but still solo roaming is a great aspect of the gamemode, considering 90% of camps and sentries and dolyaks are taken or flipped by solo roamers.

In the end I don't see much change, still the same ganking skilless players and groups around the map.

They just removed all the stealth specs from roaming further than the closest camp, it does not kill the solo roaming but it cuts it down even further and promoting those who used to roam to go for ganking on their own territory instead.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Though one can roam, camp/gank, or participate in small group play... WvW was not made for it. It was made for large scale battles. So I can easily see Anet doing everything in their power to discourage at the very least roaming and those who camp the enemies 3rd to gank.

Think of it this way; you log into WvW hoping to participate in some large scale action or attacking/defending structures.. and you have some putz chasing after you trying to prevent you from engaging from the very reason you logged into WvW to begin with. Sometimes these putz's are successful in griefing the player, but many times they aren't. You're basically stopping someone (or trying to) from doing something they want to participate in. It's really no different in PvE where some putz is trolling an event preventing it from completing. An example of this is the AB meta at the south with the bomb you have to push forward into the vines. Then you have someone push/pulling the bomb in the opposite direction. Sure the game allows you to do it, but the event certainly wasn't designed for it.

No different in WvW, sure you can roam, but it wasn't designed for it. If one wants to roam around, go to a different map instead of taking up que spots and trying to stop people from participating in what the game mode was designed for. Of course they don't which is why many groups now make a point of trolling roamers and gankers until they either log or leave the map.

[MementoMortis.4258]

@"Shining One.1635" said:This solo roamer is enjoying the change. I have more conclusive encounters with stealth builds now. They die or I die instead of the "loser" running off in stealth. I hope ArenaNet tackles some of the other escape mechanics next.

@"MUDse.7623" said:if you really think you can roam as efficient with your 'superior' map awareness as someone

utilizing

stealth on top, your pretty delusional.Stealth was too efficient.

This guy gets it. No matter what class I play, the class that kills/downs me MOST often, in either PVP or WVW, is usually a Thief (or occasionally a Mesmer) using their comically overpowered perma-stealth abilities. You can do everything right and even if you "win" the only thing that happens is, the player simply retreats in stealth, waits for all his cooldowns to recharge and then returns for a 10-15K Backstab to start the fight all over again. Meanwhile, you're constantly looking over your shoulder waiting for the inevitable attack. Actually killing a thief is a rarity. It's the most obnoxious part of this game.

It's never been fair. I laugh every time I see Thieves complain they're being mistreated. Meanwhile, Rangers have been WIDELY regarded as the weakest class by far, since launch, rarely seen in any ranked PvP teams and the most likely targets of roaming Thieves.

Try fighting out of the shadows for once. It's much more difficult. ;-)

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

as a core s/d main thief. this has not impacted on the class at all, all it has done is stopped people from abusing high stealth uptime to either farm people too stubbon to abort a "fight" vs a stealth heavy roamer or to troll keeps. there is a bug that can byepass the detected bit and I will upload a video when i get around to doing it so anet can either fix it or clarify its legit. anyway, the same stealth heavy specs work while roaming, they just can not get greedy around marked areas. perma stealth or high uptime stealth is not game breaking although at the same time it should not be part of the game at all because why? may be class's are poorly designed? (DE) or the fact that everything and anyone can be stealthed at will. i am glad this change has happened though i do think that extra second added to the stealth uptime with in the area should be granted because its in everyones minds (for many years) that most stealth skills only last for 3 seconds.

[Riko.9214]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Though one can roam, camp/gank, or participate in small group play... WvW was not made for it. It was made for large scale battles. So I can easily see Anet doing everything in their power to discourage at the very least roaming and those who camp the enemies 3rd to gank.

Think of it this way; you log into WvW hoping to participate in some large scale action or attacking/defending structures.. and you have some putz chasing after you trying to prevent you from engaging from the very reason you logged into WvW to begin with. Sometimes these putz's are successful in griefing the player, but many times they aren't. You're basically stopping someone (or trying to) from doing something they want to participate in. It's really no different in PvE where some putz is trolling an event preventing it from completing. An example of this is the AB meta at the south with the bomb you have to push forward into the vines. Then you have someone push/pulling the bomb in the opposite direction. Sure the game allows you to do it, but the event certainly wasn't designed for it.

No different in WvW, sure you can roam, but it wasn't designed for it. If one wants to roam around, go to a different map instead of taking up que spots and trying to stop people from participating in what the game mode was designed for. Of course they don't which is why many groups now make a point of trolling roamers and gankers until they either log or leave the map.

Would not argue with that if they would balance all classes to be equally efficient in large scale. By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

[displayname.8315]

@Riko.9214 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

I rolled a no stealth staff S/D Daredevil, it's so easy and cheese in blobs I rarely play it. Stealth is just a lame troll mechanic.

Yes most power creep needs nerfed for a lot of classes.

[Riko.9214]

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

I rolled a no stealth staff S/D Daredevil, it's so easy and cheese in blobs I rarely play it. Stealth is just a lame troll mechanic.

Yes most power creep needs nerfed for a lot of classes.

Sorry but I highly doubt what you say here. I have S+S/D DD and it, is:

1) Low mobility, lower than most meta-builds on other classes (can be high for chasing, but very low when escape with no ambient targets in view, which is 90% of situations)2) It has CnD that becomes useless at the enemy side now, and that is a key skill to counter other classes immunity cheese, if they eat CnD to the face they deserve to waste their 4-5 sec god-mode time3) In blob fights it only has bound-vault 3x SS out combo that is on 50 sec cd and is not nearly as efficient as aoe spam from distance by meta-blobbers

[displayname.8315]

@Riko.9214 said:

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

I rolled a no stealth staff S/D Daredevil, it's so easy and cheese in blobs I rarely play it. Stealth is just a lame troll mechanic.

Yes most power creep needs nerfed for a lot of classes.

Sorry but I highly doubt what you say here. I have S+S/D DD and it, is:

1) Low mobility, lower than most meta-builds on other classes (can be high for chasing, but very low when escape with no ambient targets in view, which is 90% of situations)2) It has CnD that becomes useless at the enemy side now, and that is a key skill to counter other classes immunity cheese, if they eat CnD to the face they deserve to waste their 4-5 sec god-mode time3) In blob fights it only has bound-vault 3x SS out combo that is on 50 sec cd and is not nearly as efficient as aoe spam from distance by meta-blobbers

Build it right and you have 4 extra long dash evades that also cleanse and leave traps. Sigils can give more evades + near infinite evades if winning so more traps more cleansing.. 1200 shadowstep.. steal is another 1200 port.. sword is a port, daggerstorm is like an invun, reflect, and aoe all in one. Spam staff for tons more evades and dmg... Also can slap on a true invun skill thats doubles as a stun break.

Yeah it's too trolly for me I feel bad playing it

[apharma.3741]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The issue is that it shuts down your ability to escape roving bands of gankers as you are no longer able to stealth away because sentries mark you for so long. As I say increase the time it takes to reveal to 10s, it counters perma stealth but allows you to actually escape larger groups.Are you implying that when you are on your thief you

need

stealth to kill a sentry?

Cause it would be hilarious if you did.

No I'm saying I need stealth to escape the 3-4 PPT heroes that jump out of a nearby tower to run to the sentry every time it picks up a single player flipping it.

"How do other classes deal with it?" lots of movement skills, generally having +5-10k extra health and hitting as hard as mesmers and thieves without having to go into a damage line as well as having more active defences in the way of blocks and invulns. Yes mesmer has distortion, however it's 1s with no clones and you're not going to have any when running and blurred frenzy only delays the inevitable.

This marked change was a very bad idea and only serves to encourage more gank squads, less solo roamers and people to sit in towers all day being gankers.

[apharma.3741]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:as a core s/d main thief. this has not impacted on the class at all, all it has done is stopped people from abusing high stealth uptime to either farm people too stubbon to abort a "fight" vs a stealth heavy roamer or to troll keeps. there is a bug that can byepass the detected bit and I will upload a video when i get around to doing it so anet can either fix it or clarify its legit. anyway, the same stealth heavy specs work while roaming, they just can not get greedy around marked areas. perma stealth or high uptime stealth is not game breaking although at the same time it should not be part of the game at all because why? may be class's are poorly designed? (DE) or the fact that everything and anyone can be stealthed at will. i am glad this change has happened though i do think that extra second added to the stealth uptime with in the area should be granted because its in everyones minds (for many years) that most stealth skills only last for 3 seconds.

That's why I don't like the change, someone using 6-8s of stealth is a little on the cheesier side (SA, 2x stealth combo) but on the whole it's not game breaking for most fights. However nearly all stealth skills are 3s so this marked change is essentially a nerf to all those skills if you happen to be marked. That's without mentioning that it can render a large number of traits vastly depreciated in value.

It would be like if marked suddenly reduced the length of blocks, leaps and heals just because you have the audacity to venture out into the world on your own and must be punished for using what your class is given.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@apharma.3741 said:What happens when I'm flipping a sentry on the way to a camp, solo a tower or keep and a ranger and holo decide to come around a corner?The same thing that happens to non-stealth/escape builds in that situation. You fight and win or die. It happens to me several times a night.

Except those classes are balanced around dropping target via stealth in combat except that's being reduced by this marked debuff. Imagine if marked reduced all invulns, blocks and other active defences to 2s? You'd be a little miffed too.

This is exactly the issue. In particular when there were already suggestions to fix the issue that prob needed less work from ANet.

[Zyreva.1078]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:Though one can roam, camp/gank, or participate in small group play... WvW was not made for it. It was made for large scale battles. So I can easily see Anet doing everything in their power to discourage at the very least roaming and those who camp the enemies 3rd to gank.

That's simply not true. Small grp and solo players have their place in WvW just as much as zergs. Even the WvW video on the official GW2 website is mentioning small grps "wreaking havoc behind enemy lines". Zerging is not the only, "right" or most efficient way (PPT wise) to play WvW and contribute to whatever. It is just the easiest and therefore most popular way.The map design with many different objectives all over the place also indicates that stacking everyone at one spot is not how this game mode is supposed to be played.

[Riko.9214]

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

I rolled a no stealth staff S/D Daredevil, it's so easy and cheese in blobs I rarely play it. Stealth is just a lame troll mechanic.

Yes most power creep needs nerfed for a lot of classes.

Sorry but I highly doubt what you say here. I have S+S/D DD and it, is:

1) Low mobility, lower than most meta-builds on other classes (can be high for chasing, but very low when escape with no ambient targets in view, which is 90% of situations)2) It has CnD that becomes useless at the enemy side now, and that is a key skill to counter other classes immunity cheese, if they eat CnD to the face they deserve to waste their 4-5 sec god-mode time3) In blob fights it only has bound-vault 3x SS out combo that is on 50 sec cd and is not nearly as efficient as aoe spam from distance by meta-blobbers

Build it right and you have 4 extra long dash evades that also cleanse and leave traps. Sigils can give more evades + near infinite evades if winning so more traps more cleansing.. 1200 shadowstep.. steal is another 1200 port.. sword is a port, daggerstorm is like an invun, reflect, and aoe all in one. Spam staff for tons more evades and dmg... Also can slap on a true invun skill thats doubles as a stun break.

Yeah it's too trolly for me I feel bad playing it

So you take dash for blob fights instead of bound? What traps on dodge??? And want to use sigils to essentially switch to S/D while fighting blob? And how steal that requires target in range ever help to get out? same for sword 2 (except for target can be further, but in most cases there is nothing to target in the escape direction at all). Also thief has no invulns... and those 2s on 40s cd of evading is laughable comparing to passives on meta-blobbing classes (not to mention how optimal is acro on DD...).

I see that you are trolling now, thanks for clarification.

[Dawdler.8521]

@apharma.3741 said:This marked change was a very bad idea and only serves to encourage more gank squads, less solo roamers and people to sit in towers all day being gankers.... you mean like gank squads of thieves? Because thats the only thing that could possibly catch a thief.

This is absolutely no difference from before. I have noticed zero difference except its much easier to now catch gank squads because you can put traps in obvious places. This changed nothing for the sentries.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Got bored, jumped on my ghost DE (which I only play for lolz) and despite needing to me more aware it still wasnt as bad as i thought. Funny to see how quick (and how many) people drop the new trap tho to get me marked lol.

[apharma.3741]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@apharma.3741 said:This marked change was a very bad idea and only serves to encourage more gank squads, less solo roamers and people to sit in towers all day being gankers.... you mean like gank squads of thieves? Because thats the only thing that could possibly catch a thief.

This is absolutely no difference from before. I have noticed zero difference except its much easier to now catch gank squads because you can put traps in obvious places. This changed nothing for the sentries.

No I mean rangers and holos mostly. I mean thieves really aren't that fast anymore, sure they are the fastest when they go all in on mobility but soulbest and facerollosmith can easily keep up especially if the thief has anything on cool down. Warriors and mesmers (I don't count triple blink tricks because no sane person would run that) aren't that far behind thief too and a little behind them would be revs.

I see far less thieves roaming than rangers, holos and spellbreakers.

[displayname.8315]

@Riko.9214 said:

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@displayname.8315 said:

@Riko.9214 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:By that logic thiefs needs to be buffed asap as currently they have no place in the intended activity (blob battles according to you) at all. In a mean time urgent nerfs to scourge and firbands? Because by that logic those are over-performing terribly.

I rolled a no stealth staff S/D Daredevil, it's so easy and cheese in blobs I rarely play it. Stealth is just a lame troll mechanic.

Yes most power creep needs nerfed for a lot of classes.

Sorry but I highly doubt what you say here. I have S+S/D DD and it, is:

1) Low mobility, lower than most meta-builds on other classes (can be high for chasing, but very low when escape with no ambient targets in view, which is 90% of situations)2) It has CnD that becomes useless at the enemy side now, and that is a key skill to counter other classes immunity cheese, if they eat CnD to the face they deserve to waste their 4-5 sec god-mode time3) In blob fights it only has bound-vault 3x SS out combo that is on 50 sec cd and is not nearly as efficient as aoe spam from distance by meta-blobbers

Build it right and you have 4 extra long dash evades that also cleanse and leave traps. Sigils can give more evades + near infinite evades if winning so more traps more cleansing.. 1200 shadowstep.. steal is another 1200 port.. sword is a port, daggerstorm is like an invun, reflect, and aoe all in one. Spam staff for tons more evades and dmg... Also can slap on a true invun skill thats doubles as a stun break.

Yeah it's too trolly for me I feel bad playing it

So you take dash for blob fights instead of bound? What traps on dodge??? And want to use sigils to essentially switch to S/D while fighting blob? And how steal that requires target in range ever help to get out? same for sword 2 (except for target can be further, but in most cases there is nothing to target in the escape direction at all). Also thief has no invulns... and those 2s on 40s cd of evading is laughable comparing to passives on meta-blobbing classes (not to mention how optimal is acro on DD...).

I see that you are trolling now, thanks for clarification.

Whatever the stuffs called the extra far Dodge that gives swift, clears condies and leaves caltrops.. yeah some of the ports are for insane gap close, shadowstep for escape, mix in staff to jump around smacking guys, daggerstorm it up. Maybe a sword port to reposition on the their backline. Switching to S/D not really needed but can give initiative back and use a swap sigil.

If your fast at the game and know your positioning your dropping caltrops smacking with staff stealing to a backliner again more Dodge more staff.

Don't forget the block/stun break if you actually get caught. Daggerstorm also let's you dance around inside a group. That one skill that gives endurace back can be nice as a cushion.

Gotta be careful using staff to bound into the red circles so just Dodge thru first then your good to go, other that it's pretty easy.

Why what do you do with DD some kind of full zerk stealth camper?