Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[gateless gate.8406]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:First, there is no reason to berate the 36k player, unless 36k is the damage done by the support roles, only time dps becomes an issue in actual gameplay is when the DPS reaches a certain low point. If you do less damage than another person (but higher than the support) nobody will care, this is a "anti-dps-meter" myth. Combined with the other similar myth "players watch the meters and ignore everything else", which is also false.

Second, the meter shows how many times a player prevents damage, their skill usage, how much healing they provided and how many boons they provided. It's very easy to quantify these and is the prime reason why the support builds are what they are. In fact buff application is much easier to quantify than damage, there are less variables there.

There is no reason, to be sure, but the average person is not rational.

Regarding your second point, ok, ArcDPS may technically have that capability, but do most people kicking others for "low DPS" check all those metrics before doing so? No, they do not.

Also, does Arc have the capability to show total damage over the fight or just strictly damage per second? Additionally, does it record cause of death for party members?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"gateless gate.8406" said:There is no reason, to be sure, but the average person is not rational.

I'm talking about what I've seen. I've never seen a person get kicked after doing ok damage. It's only real edge cases that get kicked due to their damage.

Regarding your second point, ok, ArcDPS may technically have that capability, but do most people kicking others for "low DPS" check all those metrics before doing so?

Actually they do when it's sensible to do so. Again, if you join as DPS and the druid does more dps than you, there is no other stat that can save you anymore.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

See also:

• DPS Meters and party toxicity...
• DPS meter policy needs to be revised
• An in game DPS meter from Anet
• Flag DPS-Meter user in the game
• A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.
• In-House DPS Meter
• DPS Meter
• Anet.. can you make a DPS meter?
• DPS shaming

[Cosminion.5042]

I am sorry, but no. The person who creates the group has the right to set the requirement, and remove those that aren't meeting that requirement. You can make your own group or join a more casual group for learning to avoid these experiences. ArcDPS is useful in his game, and banning it would allow freeloaders to join group content and leech off the group while contributing almost nothing.

[gateless gate.8406]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Actually they do when it's sensible to do so. Again, if you join as DPS and the druid does more dps than you, there is no other stat that can save you anymore.

Also, does Arc have the capability to show total damage over the fight or just strictly damage per second? Additionally, does it record cause of death for party members?

[starhunter.6015]

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@tasmaniajones.4376 said:I don't think the analytics tools are the issue here; and this isn't the first time I've seen this issue brought up. The real issue is that some commanders have poor communication skills and just want everything for themselves by setting unrealistic expectations.

My suggestion would be to find groups that can actually communicate well and have realistic expectations - they do exist if you look for them.

How do you explain that some people can literally read your gear/build/inventory/bank.The thought of that is terrifying right?! But I was a victim to this kind of kitten several times.

first: these are in fact bannable offenses, and have been removed as feature from arc dps a long time ago. (inventory and bank was never been able to read though)second: i couldn´t care less if someone did that with my account. i wouldn´t go so far and call myself victim.

I would care as I was a victim a few times.I will give you an example something that happned 3 months ago:If people get information from my bank guessing how many LI's I have judging me for how many times I was raiding resulting with shaming me in the aerodrome proceeding with me being kicked for being unworthy for some of the most saltist raiders in history. YES DUDE IT DOES MAKE ME A VICTIM!And let me tell you something this guy guess exactly the right number of LI's I had sitting in my bank in my crafting section and he wasn't even in my squad.I didn't even bother to argue with him and called him a liar and he guessed the number of mystic coins as well.

I don't know if ArcDPS is casuing it or not.If it doesn't then my apologies I don't care if people can examine my dps even if I didn't follow rotations.But if it does it should be banned without a doubt and send it to hell.

Then he was running an addon or 3rd party program beside arc. Arc has not supported this function in a while.

Inspecting someones gear, inventory or bank, or what ever is specifically not allowed currently. Deltaconnect has so far complied with his design of arcdps and build templates.

BGDM, a discontinued damage meter, had far more options and allowed inventory inspection. Maybe some one used that one and adapted it for the current game version, discontinued since April 2018. Once again that is against the TOS and has nothing to do with either damage meters or arc.

Alright mate.I never used ArcDPS so I don't know much about it but OP sounded like he experienced the same issue I did.

@sigur.9453 said:

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@tasmaniajones.4376 said:I don't think the analytics tools are the issue here; and this isn't the first time I've seen this issue brought up. The real issue is that some commanders have poor communication skills and just want everything for themselves by setting unrealistic expectations.

My suggestion would be to find groups that can actually communicate well and have realistic expectations - they do exist if you look for them.

How do you explain that some people can literally read your gear/build/inventory/bank.The thought of that is terrifying right?! But I was a victim to this kind of kitten several times.

first: these are in fact bannable offenses, and have been removed as feature from arc dps a long time ago. (inventory and bank was never been able to read though)second: i couldn´t care less if someone did that with my account. i wouldn´t go so far and call myself victim.

I would care as I was a victim a few times.I will give you an example something that happned 3 months ago:If people get information from my bank guessing how many LI's I have judging me for how many times I was raiding resulting with shaming me in the aerodrome proceeding with me being kicked for being unworthy for some of the most saltist raiders in history. YES DUDE IT DOES MAKE ME A VICTIM!And let me tell you something this guy guess exactly the right number of LI's I had sitting in my bank in my crafting section and he wasn't even in my squad.I didn't even bother to argue with him and called him a liar and he guessed the number of mystic coins as well.

I don't know if ArcDPS is casuing it or not.If it doesn't then my apologies I don't care if people can examine my dps even if I didn't follow rotations.But if it does it should be banned without a doubt and send it to hell.

could have been a hacker if i take your example at face value (i have never heard of such hack though).Edit while writing this post: after reading it again, i actually have doubts of the truthfullness. you story makes no sense at all.

its not as a stated before.i have been" harrased" for beeing an asura , some people always find something. block & move on.

I understand why you wouldn't believe this story, And why would someone harass me out of nowhere?!Maybe because I was sitting on W5 chair at the time maybe it gave him a reason to inspect my account and interrogate me...And yes I did purchase it for being lazy to do it enough times to get it from the raid itself.To this day I don't know their motive and if to be honest I don't really care. I did my part and reported and moved along.But this is not a problem of being "harrased" for a marginal detail.Some people can read your inventory is not ok at all and its not even ethical. It did happen a few times and to others at the time it happned to me I was searching for any information about it and saw a few people complaining in reddit as well.Its wrong whatsoever and when it has its consequences its just gets worse!

Ok first off ArcDps is allowed and follows TOS very closely.Second if any one starts reading your inventory/bank that is a direct violation and you should report that player for hacking/botting.

[Sylvari.2953]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mea.5491 said:We had fun and that's what matters in a video game.

If you find endless wipes fun then that's good for you. On the other hand, I'm positive lots of players prefer smooth runs.

Using non-meta builds does not mean endless wipes, runs can be still smooth if you know what you're doing. I've been playing GW2 since beta, I did try meta builds in the past but they were really uncomfortable for my liking. I'm a thousand times more effective when I play the way I want because I'm familiar with my own builds. There are many viable builds but people only see the meta, they consider everything else garbage and this is one of the main problems with player mentality in MMOs these days.

[maddoctor.2738]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Actually they do when it's sensible to do so. Again, if you join as DPS and the druid does more dps than you, there is no other stat that can save you anymore.

Also, does Arc have the capability to show total damage over the fight or just strictly damage per second? Additionally, does it record cause of death for party members?

It does all of that. It even has a graph that shows WHERE you are in the boss arena and shows your movement. An invaluable tool to see what you are doing wrong on Cairn for example.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Mea.5491 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mea.5491 said:We had fun and that's what matters in a video game.

If you find endless wipes fun then that's good for you. On the other hand, I'm positive lots of players prefer smooth runs.

Using non-meta builds does not mean endless wipes, runs can be still smooth if you know what you're doing. I've been playing GW2 since beta, I did try meta builds in the past but they were really uncomfortable for my liking. I'm a thousand times more effective when I play the way I want because I'm familiar with my own builds. There are many viable builds but people only see the meta, they consider everything else garbage and this is one of the main problems with player mentality in MMOs these days.

How would people know you are not running a meta build? Besides using different weapons.

People can't inspect your gear, traits or utility skills. If they can, they are in violation of the Terms of Service.

Thus if you are as effective as you believe, no one would ever notice. There is a very easy way to make sure, go to the training golem and check your rotation. Or download arcdps and see for yourself how well you actually perform. A damage meter is merely a tool which provides information. To argue that less information makes you a better player or something similar is nonsense.

This is about damage meters and arc specifically. No reason to go off-topic and bring meta builds into this discussion.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Mea.5491 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Mea.5491 said:We had fun and that's what matters in a video game.

If you find endless wipes fun then that's good for you. On the other hand, I'm positive lots of players prefer smooth runs.

Using non-meta builds does not mean endless wipes, runs can be still smooth if you know what you're doing. I've been playing GW2 since beta, I did try meta builds in the past but they were really uncomfortable for my liking. I'm a thousand times more effective when I play the way I want because I'm familiar with my own builds. There are many viable builds but people only see the meta, they consider everything else garbage and this is one of the main problems with player mentality in MMOs these days.

Then you should be happy dps meters exist. With them you can use non-meta builds just fine, provided they bring at least a certain level of damage, healing or boon support. Most runs I've been to (not with pugs of course) have been with at least some people not using the absolute meta builds. To be fair, I'm not using the exact meta builds either, I don't use infusions, I use cheaper food on certain runs and since the latest sigil/rune update I'm not using the meta sigils either (Impact is expensive). In other cases I make my own changes where I see fit.

But this thread isn't about meta vs not-meta builds, it's about dps meters, that have little to nothing to do about meta vs non-meta builds. If anything, dps meters HELP non-meta builds, open up compositions and builds. Without them, you'd be stuck using only the top tier meta builds and are not even allowed to join a group based on your build choice. I've seen my fair share of "I'm meta pro Weaver" dealing little damage because they are on the ground more often than not, when they could use a different build, or different spec altogether, and do more damage, even though "benchmark dps" is lower. playing the build you know best is more important than playing the meta build, which is something dps meters actually support and promote.

Meanwhile, since this thread is about players being kicked due to their dps, they get kicked when they seriously underperform (by a HUGE margin), if most players in the squad are like that then you will have endless wipes. That's unavoidable and it has little to do with meta or non-meta builds.

[Walhalla.5473]

One question to the people who want DPS-Meters to be banned. What do you think will happen after such a ban?

[SkyShroud.2865]

Kicking people from ac for low dps. Ac a level 35 dungeon. Yes, I agree is toxic.Arcdps and any other forms of dps meter is just tools. It can be compared to a knife. A knife can be used to prepare food or can be use to harm others, all depends on the users. While to a certain extend, we can argue that not having knife will reduce harms it bought, we also cannot forget the benefit it brings. Therefore, the same for dps meter, does the pro outweight the con or not? This is what people should be arguing about. This is the only objective argument in such situation.

[Sylvari.2953]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:To argue that less information makes you a better player or something similar is nonsense.This is about damage meters and arc specifically. No reason to go off-topic and bring meta builds into this discussion.

? I never said I was a better player. What I'm saying is that meta builds are not actually required to finish game content smoothly but some people act like that's the only way to play and judge players with dps meters. Just because a non-meta player's dps is lower than "meta numbers" that does not mean a player is not useful or wipes all the time. Having lower dps should not be a reason to kick a player out of a group as long as they do their best and still finish the content without issues, but maybe that's just my unpopular opinion. And therefore this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

[kharmin.7683]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Kicking people from ac for low dps. Ac a level 35 dungeon. Yes, I agree is toxic.Arcdps and any other forms of dps meter is just tools. It can be compared to a knife. A knife can be used to prepare food or can be use to harm others, all depends on the users. While to a certain extend, we can argue that not having knife will reduce harms it bought, we also cannot forget the benefit it brings. Therefore, the same for dps meter, does the pro outweight the con or not? This is what people should be arguing about. This is the only objective argument in such situation.

I think that your example doesn't entirely relate. Most of the complaints as I understand them are about people using ARC to read someone else's DPS. If ARC were only for personal use, then your knife-wielding analogy would make more sense.

[Sylvari.2953]

[Deleted because quoted post was deleted]

[Davion Roth.6709]

@"KeoLegend.5132" said:Stop crying, download ARCDPS, train and get better. All those "elitists" youre calling had to spend hours to learn the perfect rotation, why shouldn't you?

While I generally try to know my rotations, play good builds, and do my best to play well at all times, what I would say to this is that it's a game, not a job. Expecting to be perfect is unreasonable, and I don't care who you are, nobody plays perfect at all times (even though they like to act like they do).

[Neworder.7981]

? I never said I was a better player. What I'm saying is that meta builds are not actually required to finish game content smoothly but some people act like that's the only way to play and judge players with dps meters. Just because a non-meta player's dps is lower than "meta numbers" that does not mean a player is not useful or wipes all the time. Having lower dps should not be a reason to kick a player out of a group as long as they do their best and still finish the content without issues, but maybe that's just my unpopular opinion. And therefore this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

This is what would make a good community even better, if everyone thought like this.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Mea.5491 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:To argue that less information makes you a better player or something similar is nonsense.This is about damage meters and arc specifically. No reason to go off-topic and bring meta builds into this discussion.

? I never said I was a better player. What I'm saying is that meta builds are not actually required to finish game content smoothly but some people act like that's the only way to play and judge players with dps meters. Just because a non-meta player's dps is lower than "meta numbers" that does not mean a player is not useful or wipes all the time. Having lower dps should not be a reason to kick a player out of a group as long as they do their best and still finish the content without issues, but maybe that's just my unpopular opinion. And therefore this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

Meta builds are not required, I 100% agree. Performance is though.

If a player does not perform adequately on the role he is supposed to fulfill in a group, depending on how strict and experienced the group is, they have every right to replace him.

No one has a right to other peoples performance.

Damage required is VERY lenient. There is very casual groups who care less about this. It's the groups (or mostly the leads) decision to keep or replace someone. No one has the right to leech off of other peoples performance. If you want to get carried, find friends and guild members who will do so. Don;t blame other players who will not put up with it. You have no right to demand other people make up for your lacking performance. Or make your own group and make it free for all.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Mea.5491" said:? I never said I was a better player. What I'm saying is that meta builds are not actually required to finish game content smoothly but some people act like that's the only way to play and judge players with dps meters. Just because a non-meta player's dps is lower than "meta numbers" that does not mean a player is not useful or wipes all the time. Having lower dps should not be a reason to kick a player out of a group as long as they do their best and still finish the content without issues, but maybe that's just my unpopular opinion. And therefore this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

I already answered above why dps meters have nothing to do with the meta, but yet you continue claiming that they are related.I will repeat it then: dps meters are what makes non-meta builds viable, not the other way around. Without a dps meter you get a strict meta, exclusion based on profession and all the kind staff we had to deal with in the past that anyone who played since release should know/remember. Now you no longer have to deal with that as a dps meter shows clearly how non-meta builds can perform at an acceptable level and many times even better than meta builds, depending on who plays them and their experience.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Fantasy.5321 said:This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games, not speedclearing content. Helping each other is too mainstream, people only care about Gold/hour.

So let me get this. I open a group and ask for experienced players in order to finish the content in a timely manner. Someone that needs help with their gear or build joins up, causing delays, wipes and in general making the run much worse than it should be. Instead of getting what I asked for, an experienced player, I should spend my time teaching this random nobody that showed zero respect towards me and my team? People only care about their fun. I personally train players, suggest changes to their builds and gear. That's always true for guild members, those that will stay with me for the next run and the one after that. As I always say, guild members are investments, training them makes absolute sense because you'll play with them again and again. But a random disrespectful pile of kitten? Hell no.

[Zohane.7208]

@Fantasy.5321 said:

@"Mea.5491" said:this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

Yup, meta and dps meters are closely related and they are a problem. What I hate is when people see an underperforming, struggling player in the group. What do they do? Kick them out. Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games, not speedclearing content. Helping each other is too mainstream, people only care about Gold/hour.

In a perfect world this would be the case. Unfortunately most people - or at least most people I've come across in game or irl - aren't the tutoring kind, they would love it if people were better at things, and they wish "someone" would go about teaching them.For this reason I don't really think it will happen, but people will continue to kick underperformers and patiently wait for that elusive "someone" to fix the problem.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that dastardly word - Toxic behaviour.

Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

[Blocki.4931]

I will never play with underperformers again, it's simple as that.

I will help you, I will teach you. But don't pretend you're good, fail mechanics or deal 6k dps as dps role. Nobody is entitled to my time or my patience.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Zohane.7208 said:

@Fantasy.5321 said:

@"Mea.5491" said:this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

Yup, meta and dps meters are closely related and they are a problem. What I hate is when people see an underperforming, struggling player in the group. What do they do? Kick them out. Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games, not speedclearing content. Helping each other is too mainstream, people only care about Gold/hour.

In a perfect world this would be the case. Unfortunately most people - or at least most people I've come across in game or irl - aren't the tutoring kind, they would love it if people were better at things, and they wish "someone" would go about teaching them.For this reason I don't really think it will happen, but people will continue to kick underperformers and patiently wait for that elusive "someone" to fix the problem.

Actually there is a ton of tutors and people helping out. Most are found in training runs, training guilds and training discord servers. I myself runs multiple training raids weekly (currently down to 1-2 due to holiday downtimes). The demands and expectations are very different when you run in a training run. This thread is not about training runs, but about people not performing in an actual run (or being so terrible that the training commander deemed it necessary to replace them).

Unfortunately for someone to teach, some one must be willing to learn.

Demanding that other people carry you is a strong indicator that this desire is not present in a person.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Kicking people from ac for low dps. Ac a level 35 dungeon. Yes, I agree is toxic.Arcdps and any other forms of dps meter is just tools. It can be compared to a knife. A knife can be used to prepare food or can be use to harm others, all depends on the users. While to a certain extend, we can argue that not having knife will reduce harms it bought, we also cannot forget the benefit it brings. Therefore, the same for dps meter, does the pro outweight the con or not? This is what people should be arguing about. This is the only objective argument in such situation.

I think that your example doesn't entirely relate. Most of the complaints as I understand them are about people using ARC to read someone else's DPS. If ARC were only for personal use, then your knife-wielding analogy would make more sense.

Well, I am giving people the opportunity to argue but if I were to use a example that makes complete sense, then there will be no argument.

Let's put it this way. Arcdps is nothing more than putting out raw data in a presentable manner, making it more immersive. This is basically the same as a observer watching someone slashing a beast with their blade. You as a observer should be able to see how deep the blade cut. However, why can't we do that in game? Why can't I see how deep your blade cut? Why can't I see how hard your blast hit? That's not immersive.

Would you prefer the above example or do you prefer the other example?