Change to Stealth for WvW/PvP Suggestion

[derd.6413]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.

[Caedmon.6798]

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.

Like fighting a condi spec without adding resist or cleanse to your build ? I dont think people have the right to complain about a certain mechanic if they dont want to use the tools available to counter it,for whatever reason.Its rock paper scissors,not rock rock rock.

[derd.6413]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.

Like fighting a condi spec without adding resist or cleanse to your build ? I dont think people have the right to complain about a certain mechanic if they dont want to use the tools available to counter it,for whatever reason.Its rock paper scissors,not rock rock rock.

there's still counterplay to condis even if you're not build specifically to fight it, you can still heal the damage afterwards or try dodge the attacks or stand outside their range before they get applied. but with stealth it's reveal or nothing, the few things you could do outside of revealed are just dumb luck whether or not they actually work against a good player and you only know if it worked if their stealth runs out while downed or they die.

[Dawdler.8521]

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.You have specific skills to stealth too though. Even for a deadeye stealthing on dodge, you need to take a specific trait and weapon.

Most of the counterplay to stealth isnt reveal anyway, its AoE damage, traps, blocks/counterattacks, passive procs, stuns/cc, stealth, evades and condi.

Classes should at least bring some of that, no?

The simple truth of WvW is this:

If you can take 100% hp from an enemy, congrats you're winner.If you can take 75% hp from an enemy, better luck next time.If you can take 50% hp from an enemy, get a friend and win.If you can take 25% hp from an enemy, get 2 more friends and win.If you cant even take a single percent of hp from an enemy before dying I cant help you win either.

Bring meta, bring cheese or bring the worst build imaginable, it all comes back to the simple truth of above anyway.

[NuhDah.9812]

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.

Like fighting a condi spec without adding resist or cleanse to your build ? I dont think people have the right to complain about a certain mechanic if they dont want to use the tools available to counter it,for whatever reason.Its rock paper scissors,not rock rock rock.

there's still counterplay to condis even if you're not build specifically to fight it, you can still heal the damage afterwards or try dodge the attacks or stand outside their range before they get applied. but with stealth it's reveal or nothing, the few things you could do outside of revealed are just dumb luck whether or not they actually work against a good player and you only know if it worked if their stealth runs out while downed or they die.

If you want to argue about counterplay the only thing, and also true diference is that cleansing is way more common found on abilities than revealed. Stealth isn't something that can't be countered by blocking, kiting, dodging, stealthing, aoe blinding, fearing, cleaving and counting timing, anticipating positioning and attack... nothing like luck is involved here if you have the necessary experience. On the other hand, unlike stealth which is practically harmless, condition ticking on you deals dmg. While you have more ways to clear conditions and their aplication is visible so more strait forward to avoid, the spam is also real, so if you're not a boon spammer too, there will not be enough cleanse and dodges to avoid them anyways. But at the same time if you're a boon spammed you shouldn't have any issue against stealth bursts either.

[derd.6413]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.You have specific skills to stealth too though. Even for a deadeye stealthing on dodge, you need to take a specific trait and weapon.

Most of the counterplay to stealth isnt reveal anyway, its AoE damage, traps, blocks/counterattacks, passive procs, stuns/cc, stealth, evades and condi.

Classes should at least bring

some

of that, no?

The simple truth of WvW is this:

If you can take 100% hp from an enemy, congrats you're winner.If you can take 75% hp from an enemy, better luck next time.If you can take 50% hp from an enemy, get a friend and win.If you can take 25% hp from an enemy, get 2 more friends and win.If you cant even take a single percent of hp from an enemy before dying I cant help you win either.

Bring meta, bring cheese or bring the worst build imaginable, it all comes back to the simple truth of above anyway.

i would say no they're not, they either rely on the thief having an extremely inflexible build, you knowing which build it is and knowing where he'll position himself (and then there isn't even any feedback on whether or not your "counter" succeeded) or are just waste his time (and i don't know any build better at wasting your opponents time then a stealth build) and with all of these it relies on either dumb luck or the thief messing up, not on you outplaying the thief (there is a difference)

if i had to give examples of stealth skills/traits i'm fine with i'd say shadow refuge and merciful ambush because they limit the thief's mobility.

[Dawdler.8521]

@derd.6413 said:all of these it relies on either dumb luck or the thief messing up, not on you outplaying the thief (there is a difference)Which doesnt make sense with what people say about classes.

Is the mirage OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck to roflstomp shatter a thief, you outplayed him by using an OP class.

Is the soulbeast OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck that you pewpew him to death, you outplayed him by using an OP class.

Is the dd/de OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck that the enemy thief messed up while you instakill him, you outplayed him with his own OP class.

We cant have it both ways and just call it dumb luck or messing up while at the same time complaining something is OP.

[derd.6413]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"derd.6413" said:all of these it relies on either dumb luck or the thief messing up, not on you outplaying the thief (there is a difference)Which doesnt make sense with what people say about classes.

Is the mirage OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck to roflstomp shatter a thief, you outplayed him by using an OP class.

Is the soulbeast OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck that you pewpew him to death, you outplayed him by using an OP class.

Is the dd/de OP or not? If OP, its not dumb luck that the enemy thief messed up while you instakill him, you outplayed him with his own OP class.

We cant have it both ways and just call it dumb luck or messing up while at the same time complaining something is OP.

I'm sorry but i can't figure out what your argument actually is.

All i got from that was "stealth can't be poorly designed because other ppl said mirage is more OP"

[crepuscular.9047]

@steki.1478 said:I'd say remove ability to stack stealth. It's stupid in roaming and it's stupid in gvg too. The result is the same - someone dies almost instantly after it. In other words, make it work like superspeed which resets its duration when reapplied.

In the worse case: add diminishing returns after stealthing/leaving stealth: same effect like exhaust, which stops you from stealthing for some time (3-5 seconds for example).

i suggested that too in one of the many threads asking anet to change stealth

should also slap on slow debuff = doesnt make sense how you can move at normal speed and not being detected, we already seen anet done with mob mechanic in Forearmed Is Forewarned

and also slap on Vulnerability as a trade off for untargetable, too much survivability

[bq pd.2148]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@steki.1478 said:I'd say remove ability to stack stealth. It's stupid in roaming and it's stupid in gvg too. The result is the same - someone dies almost instantly after it. In other words, make it work like superspeed which resets its duration when reapplied.

In the worse case: add diminishing returns after stealthing/leaving stealth: same effect like exhaust, which stops you from stealthing for some time (3-5 seconds for example).

i suggested that too in one of the many threads asking anet to change stealth

should also slap on slow debuff = doesnt make sense how you can move at normal speed and not being detected, we already seen anet done with mob mechanic in Forearmed Is Forewarned

and also slap on Vulnerability as a trade off for untargetable, too much survivability

yet the stealth in forearmed is forewarned has 0 resource cost. if i had out of combat permastealth with 0 resource cost like that, i wouldnt need to include tools for stealthing in my build and could go for much stronger defensive mechanics like mobility, CC or evades.anet could obvioulsy split preencounter stealth and the stealth you have during a fight, both in resource cost and effect and redesign the thief profession around it so it can come out of nowhere but will focus more on mobility/evades during the fight instead of weaving stealth that current deadeye does. also the preencounter stealth can be defensively much stronger if it also limits your options to attack from it or even needs you to break it before you attack, so it would be only a fight avoidance/picking tool not an ambush tool.

[Kolisch.4691]

Prefer that players coming out of stealth automatically be retargeted if they had been targeted before going into stealth. Mesmer's damage negation by stealth is not just the invisible part of it, but also the extra second (or two if they're half decent to always appear behind your camera) needed to locate your target.

[snh.7091]

@Kolisch.4691 said:Prefer that players coming out of stealth automatically be retargeted if they had been targeted before going into stealth. Mesmer's damage negation by stealth is not just the invisible part of it, but also the extra second (or two if they're half decent to always appear behind your camera) needed to locate your target.

that doesn't make any sense and it breaks the purpose of the mesmer - deception. You don't summon clones just to be easily re-targeted.

[Celsith.2753]

@Hitman.5829 said:Stealth is an invulnerability and it can be spammed every 3 seconds, of course it needs to be reworked or revoke in WvW and PvP specially while in combat.

And yes, it is an INVULNERABILITY because you cannot damage the target while in stealth because you cannot see it, you can throw random attacks at an area but that does not mean you will hit the target, so if you do not hit the target, the target is invulnerable. Also, there are skills that require a target to activate, therefore, the whole stealth mechanic is an invulnerability that can be spammed and that NEEDS TO GO!

No it isn't. The amount of times i've killed a deadeye that I didn't even know was there until he appeared downed.... At some point we just have to accept that if we die to something, they beat us and that's that. Some people on this forum will not be happy until they never die to anything smh.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Ok, at this point I just want to point out something.

The original version of this poll where people's votes were not anonymous had a clear favor to make changes in line with this. THIS VERSION, where voting in anon, has a clear favor toward that stealth is FINE AS IT IS.

What does this mean? It means that people only want to change it, they claim, cause of the bandwagon saying it needs to be changed, not that any ACTUAL WvW Players are finding huge issues with it.

So, can we finally let this die and instead focus on overall balance, population issues, and pulling back the power creep?

[DemonSeed.3528]

@"Kolisch.4691" said:Prefer that players coming out of stealth automatically be retargeted if they had been targeted before going into stealth. Mesmer's damage negation by stealth is not just the invisible part of it, but also the extra second (or two if they're half decent to always appear behind your camera) needed to locate your target.

I have a hotkey binded for autotarget/snap to ground for this purpose - it actually prioritizes the player instead of clone [for me] though I've heard from others it doesn't work for them. I just know it does work on my end. Also this helps even with non channeled skills to hit enemy as long as they are close to you and you do it within a certain time frame of them going into stealth. I also know it's possible for people to "no scope" hit stealthed targets when they have action camera.

[Arcaedus.7290]

I lean to the side of no to this suggestion because it essentially removes the benefit of stealth. Some classes have truckloads of cleave, ad others can simply switch on action cam, and 360 no-scope someone without tab-targeting at all.

If a more nuanced system was in place, I would vote yes. Something like...

1. The stealther appeared as a blur (as they do to their party members) to you within a certain range (say within 300 radius), AND only after having attacked you at least once/maintained in combator
2. The stealther appears as a blur (as they do to their party members) only while moving in stealth. If they stand still you cannot see them at all like how stealth currently is.or
3. Some combination of 1 and 2.

While I think a system like this would be great, I think what we'll see instead is an increasing arms race of reveals/different stealth counters.

[Caedmon.6798]

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Think stealth is fine,the only issue was DE really. Mesmer stealth is fine imo so is dd/core and there's still a thing called revealed.Have issues with stealth classes ? Make a change to your build and add in reveal,most specs can.

that's arguable, only 4 of the core classes have skills that apply revealed (one of which loses his when he uses any espec) and only 2 of the classes gain revealing skill(s) in one of their especThat is true, but it really begs the question:

If you have to take a specific class/build to stealth that much, why shouldnt you have to take another specific class/build to counter that specific class/build?

that would be a valid question except you have to take a specific skill, not a build. but i would also argue that while you shouldn't be able to counter said build unless you're build specifically for it there should still be some counterplay.

Like fighting a condi spec without adding resist or cleanse to your build ? I dont think people have the right to complain about a certain mechanic if they dont want to use the tools available to counter it,for whatever reason.Its rock paper scissors,not rock rock rock.

there's still counterplay to condis even if you're not build specifically to fight it, you can still heal the damage afterwards or try dodge the attacks or stand outside their range before they get applied. but with stealth it's reveal or nothing, the few things you could do outside of revealed are just dumb luck whether or not they actually work against a good player and you only know if it worked if their stealth runs out while downed or they die.

And vs stealth you can still kite around alot.Ive had my fair share of fights myself vs stealth/perm stealth without having reveal on my bar,its about kiting and pressuring at the right times,predicting where they move,it aint exactly a hard counter though.Healing a condi bomb all depends on the spec you run aswell,are you able to outheal a condi bomb on a warri while running healsig,no resist,no cleanse ? Doubt.

[derd.6413]

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Ok, at this point I just want to point out something.

The original version of this poll where people's votes were not anonymous had a clear favor to make changes in line with this. THIS VERSION, where voting in anon, has a clear favor toward that stealth is FINE AS IT IS.

What does this mean? It means that people only want to change it, they claim, cause of the bandwagon saying it needs to be changed, not that any ACTUAL WvW Players are finding huge issues with it.

correction: this means absolutely nothing.polls wit 25 or 37 votes is in no way reflective of general consensus and will vary wildly just because of the low participation.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@derd.6413 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:Ok, at this point I just want to point out something.

The

original version of this poll

where people's votes were not anonymous had a clear favor to make changes in line with this. THIS VERSION, where voting in anon, has a clear favor toward that

stealth is FINE AS IT IS.

What does this mean? It means that people only want to change it, they claim, cause of the bandwagon saying it needs to be changed, not that any ACTUAL WvW Players are finding huge issues with it.

correction: this means absolutely nothing.polls wit 25 or 37 votes is in no way reflective of general consensus and will vary wildly just because of the low participation.

Also true, which means the limited core set of repetitive complainers here is not representative of the whole, and ANet can (and should) ignore them in favor of their internal metrics.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Ok, at this point I just want to point out something.

The

original version of this poll

where people's votes were not anonymous had a clear favor to make changes in line with this. THIS VERSION, where voting in anon, has a clear favor toward that

stealth is FINE AS IT IS.

What does this mean? It means that people only want to change it, they claim, cause of the bandwagon saying it needs to be changed, not that any ACTUAL WvW Players are finding huge issues with it.

correction: this means absolutely nothing.polls wit 25 or 37 votes is in no way reflective of general consensus and will vary wildly just because of the low participation.

Also true, which means the limited core set of repetitive complainers here is not representative of the whole, and ANet can (and should) ignore them in favor of their internal metrics.

The biggest complaints were about DE anyway i think but that has been "resolved" and there's way less DE's in general atm ( The unblock removal on DJ also kinda killed it ) so less people complain aswell.The entire nerf stealth was just brought up ( like in most cases ) by people who do not try to or want to learn and counter a spec and spend some hours in practicing vs them,or simply unwilling to grab the counter necessary,instead they call 10 people for that one guy and complain on the forum to nerf this and that.

[derd.6413]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Ok, at this point I just want to point out something.

The

original version of this poll

where people's votes were not anonymous had a clear favor to make changes in line with this. THIS VERSION, where voting in anon, has a clear favor toward that

stealth is FINE AS IT IS.

What does this mean? It means that people only want to change it, they claim, cause of the bandwagon saying it needs to be changed, not that any ACTUAL WvW Players are finding huge issues with it.

correction: this means absolutely nothing.polls wit 25 or 37 votes is in no way reflective of general consensus and will vary wildly just because of the low participation.

Also true, which means the limited core set of repetitive complainers here is not representative of the whole, and ANet can (and should) ignore them in favor of their internal metrics.

have to disagree, as useful as data can be it's not infallible and just because something isn't a problem doesn't mean it's flawless.

[Heibi.4251]

Add to stealth changes -

1. While in stealth the character moves at walk speed. You can't be stealthy while running around at top speed.
2. If you dodge in stealth you are revealed.
3. All stealth skills get a cool-down comparable to what everyone else's main gimmicks have. Like 15-30 seconds for stealth skill cool-downs.
4. As soon as you are revealed you can't stealth for 15 seconds.
5. You can't stealth in combat - makes no sense to be able to in the first place. You can use the blinding ability of course. But it doesn't stealth you. Instead it gives a miss chance.
6. No spiking while stealthed. Let's be clear here - you are raising your kittening hand in the air and claiming someone's soul as your own as you bring the grim reaper down on them. There's no way that is stealthy.
7. All traps and wells and marks are activated and reveal you if you go through them. While any of the conditions are on you you can't stealth. Blood trails and the like kind of give you away.

There- now stealth is what stealth should have been all along.

[bq pd.2148]

@Heibi.4251 said:There- now stealth is what stealth should have been all along.

useless?

[Heibi.4251]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Heibi.4251 said:There- now stealth is what stealth should have been all along.

useless?

But more realistic. There's always a middle ground. I just laid the groundwork to fix a broken mechanic.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

If by fix, you mean, "Entirely gutted 3 classes" sure.