Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

[Shivvies.3921]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@yann.1946 said:You're really confusing the meter with the people here.As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

@AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

To be completely honest with you, you are talking from a place of not having to care about those. Some group stuff become more and more wipefests with low DPS geoups. Some stuff becomes impossible with low enough DPS. Now, I'm not talking about T4s or anything like that. T4s are so easy 2 people can easily carry a group. I still would respect people who would want a fast clear AND let people know beforehand.

@"Turkeyspit.3965"I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

---

That is not correct. Some content REQUIRE DPS in the range that is considered "high" by the majority of the game's populace. You could hear stuff like "meh, those do not require high dps, if everyone is at basic ranges, it is fine" and the DIVIDE is such that they are talking about 10-15K dps whereas LOW DPS is like 2k. Don't ask me how people do 2k with DPS builds, I do not know, but they do.

TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.

And the game's enjoyment, for some, come from completing relatively harder content. And that becomes impossibly bad in terms of toxicity and frustration when there is no numeric data to analyse the situation.

THe person who would base all your performance on how many Ks of DPS you do WILL already base it on literally anything else if we don't have DPS metres. AND I amd ny kind will not play the game. So, I dunno, I am not sure DPS metres have ANYTHING to do with people being dicks.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Ol Nik.2518" said:

I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

---

I think it's fair to distinguish between what you need to complete the content, and what people ask for speed runs. I regularly clear all T4 daily + recs in about 45mins queuing up with a Druid friend, while I play Quickbrand - we pug the 3 DPS.

I have no idea of a tanky build that can solo champions in open world is capable of doing the same in T4 fractals. I'm of the opinion (that's all, no facts) that damage in fractals eventually becomes unsustainable: your abilities go on cooldown, and eventually you are downed. The strategy then, is to avoid as much damage as possible (dodge) while doing as much damage as possible to kill the boss before you take so much damage that players go into downed state.

I've been in the odd fight where it took way longer than normal to phase the boss (because of low DPS) and the result isn't just a longer fight, but a MUCH harder fight, further complicated by having to revive downed or even defeated players.

But again we are talking about LFG. If you want to form a group and clear the content slowly with tanky builds, go for it. But I expect to clear my dailies in about the same amount of time each day, and it's a very reasonable expectation as I've been doing it successfully for 6 months straight, all with LFG players. If someone wants to come in to my group and subsequently slows it down because they aren't ready for T4, or don't want to use the most efficient build, that is hardly being considerate of the other 4 players in the group. I've never wanted to be "that guy", and thankfully I've only had to kick people from my group who went AFK, but if I form a group, I feel responsible to help everyone have a good time, and if 1 of the 5 players is really dragging their feet, making it harder on the rest of us, I may not propose they be kicked, but I'll certainly support that initiative if another party member makes that call.

[Shivvies.3921]

My experience parallels Turkeyspit.

Some content definitely becomes much, much harder with low dps.

Imagine a hard to avoid mechanic (like CM100 final phase, where there are regular aoes, facing mechanisms, quick twitch almost one shot mechanics AND floor regularly disappearing further limiting your mobility). Now, if you can clear that phase in 15 seconds, you survive, clear, happy happy loot loot. If that takes 3 minutes, you will invariably have deaths making it harder and harder to clear.

Being "tanky" won't help you there. Having good reflexes and concentration does. Not being a savant, having high dps helps ME.

[Tiviana.2650]

@Nury.3062 said:The DPS meter is an enabler,it enables people to be toxic and even breeds toxicity through the obsession towards min /max than actual content.I am all for DPS meter when it can show only your own dps and not everyone's dps. While not so serious or aggravating I kinda find a 3rd party tool that can check any information about me to be somewhat intruding.

No more toxic than people that look down on others because they dont buy outfits from the gemstore. Elitism comes in all flavors, so just ignore it.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

[Shivvies.3921]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

You are basically telling me I play the game wrong. I enjoy playing this way and I do not infringe on anyone else's fun. I also have been a gamer for over 35 years. I mean, I don't think I care about the lesson you are teaching me here.

A game is whatever to you and another thing to another person. You do not get to tell people this is the better way to play. There is a very large number of people who like challenges. I have always loved theory crafting, min maxing, tactical play both with pen and paper, strategy games, cRPGs and MMOs. I really don't understand how you can think a game is what you perceive it to be objectively.

[Tiviana.2650]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

See i think playing the game casually no you dont need a damage meter or any thing like that. But i believe if you are going to coordinate with a team on raid bosses then part of that is being able to help not hinder a team. Meters in the hands of someone that is responsible show more than just damage, at least the good ones do. They can show in logs where you need to improve heals /dodging/boons. Its not fair to the rest of the team if one person isnt contributing or being a dead weight. It takes a team to down a boss, not a solo player. In that same thought i dont think people with damage meters that decide to pug should belittle anyone, you want competent raiding then join a guild team.

[yann.1946]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

[yann.1946]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@yann.1946 said:You're really confusing the meter with the people here.As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

I disagree with the fact that they enable toxicity. The toxic people I know where so before and after meters where a thing in this game.

They can help with minmaxing stuff but it's the content / people most of the time who promote specific playstyles.

As an example did meters change you're playstyle?

If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.

This statement was more that the existence of the meter doesn't really change the outcome.

Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

Good luck with playing with you're son. Do you have an ergonomic mouse?

@AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

This has nothing to do with the meter tho.?

@Turkeyspit.3965I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

Some things become way easier after certain dps thresholds are met. And I don't think their is anything which needs it in a literal sense (maybe samarog) but saying it's nessecary is also not really lying in certain cases.

---

TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.

[alcopaul.2156]

Remote Desktop Connection. That's the way to go. Arcdps is mega-amateur compared to that.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@Shivvies.3921 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

You are basically telling me I play the game wrong. I enjoy playing this way and I do not infringe on anyone else's fun. I also have been a gamer for over 35 years. I mean, I don't think I care about the lesson you are teaching me here.

A game is whatever to you and another thing to another person. You do not get to tell people this is the better way to play. There is a very large number of people who like challenges. I have always loved theory crafting, min maxing, tactical play both with pen and paper, strategy games, cRPGs and MMOs. I really don't understand how you can think a game is what you perceive it to be objectively.

I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

Do not get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we all should be playing together regardless of preferences. But we should be polite, civilised, and not spoiling each others fun. Let slow people be slow. Let fast people be fast. This game is big and diverse enough to provide plenty of enjoyment to everyone.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@sorudo.9054 said:it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

You seem to be taking this very seriously yourself, no? Also, it isn't "your own" enjoyment when there are 4-9 other players present in the group, is it? But I agree that the bigger problem is players not being respectful of one another. And, as I said, this has absolutely nothing to do with damage meters.

Practically speaking, you aren't going to force everyone to be kind to one another. The best you can do from your end is to make your expectations clear and avoid grouping with players whose expectations don't align with your own. It also wouldn't hurt if you stopped thinking of participation in content with other players as a right owed to you. Having different priorities in a video game is not a sin and they are not harming you by wishing to play with a different type of player than yourself.> @sorudo.9054 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

Again, this has nothing to do with damage meters. Make your expectations clear when forming a group. It will never 100% ensure zero toxicity, but it should keep it to a minimum. And remember that it's just a game.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@yann.1946 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@yann.1946 said:You're really confusing the meter with the people here.As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @Nury.3062 that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

I disagree with the fact that they enable toxicity. The toxic people I know where so before and after meters where a thing in this game.

Maybe 'enable' is not the most precise word in this case. Maybe 'trigger' or 'justify' would fit better.

They can help with minmaxing stuff but it's the content / people most of the time who promote specific playstyles.As an example did meters change you're playstyle?

They did. I do not like drama. So, after several quite unpleasant encounters I started to play almost exclusively solo.And I also faced a situation similar to the other commentor in this thread: People came to my LFG group which was listed as new player, 1st dungeon run and kicked me out after a couple of fights. You can argue, that it's people who are not nice and meters have nothing to do with it. But a DPS meter was used as an excuse to hi-jack my group.

Good luck with playing with you're son. Do you have an ergonomic mouse?Mouse, keyboard, touchpad, special gloves :)

@AliamRationem.5172, @Algreg.3629I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

This has nothing to do with the meter tho.?This was a reply to a suggestion that I feel entitled to be in a speed-clearing group. I do not.

@Turkeyspit.3965I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

Some things become way easier after certain dps thresholds are met. And I don't think their is anything which needs it in a literal sense (maybe samarog) but saying it's nessecary is also not really lying in certain cases.

Easier =/= required. This is my point. I am not arguing that high DPS make most fights in this game faster and easier. They do. But you still can do most of the content that I am aware of with non-optimal DPS. Again, I am not forcing people to slow down for me. I would rather be on a 'snail' team.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Daddicus.6128" said:I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

Personally, I support comprehensive stats as a built-in feature. Allow players to hide their stats from other players, but also create filters to allow players to form groups according to their preferences. That should give the players who want it better information while reducing toxicity (which is the real issue here).

[Shivvies.3921]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:Do not get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we all should be playing together regardless of preferences. But we should be polite, civilised, and not spoiling each others fun. Let slow people be slow. Let fast people be fast. This game is big and diverse enough to provide plenty of enjoyment to everyone.In my opinion, this goes without saying.

The discussion is not that, though. The discussion is about a tool that basically lets me enjoy the game. I definitely wouldn't have stuck around as long as I have if there were no real analysis tools. I mean, yeah, I like doing other things too in the game but group content is where it's at for me.

[Daddicus.6128]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

Personally, I support comprehensive stats as a built-in feature. Allow players to hide their stats from other players, but also create filters to allow players to form groups according to their preferences. That should give the players who want it better information while reducing toxicity (which is the real issue here).

I like it. It's probably too much to ask, but it would help.

If they did so, they could also implement a system where it stops working when you accumulate too many "this guy is a jerk" penalties, a rating other players could give when someone is being toxic with the numbers. It's not going to happen, but I would support it.

[sigur.9453]

no worries folks, problem is solved since OP abandoned this thread.

[kharmin.7683]

@sigur.9453 said:no worries folks, problem is solved since OP abandoned this thread.

Since the thread has pretty much devolved into all of the other DPS threads, perhaps it is a good thing

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Dps meter is great. It gives me a chance to play content how i want, with ppl who can perform well. Have i kicked some1 from party? No. If dps is not high enough, i can just leave and join in other party. I have a limited Time to play, not gonna waste it in raids with players who does 15k dps.

Thats not elitism, its My way to play and i will always do it non toxic way. If group dps is low, ill just say "gtg gl with your Raid :)".

[Cerioth.7062]

Toxicity will exist, with or without the DPS meters. With the DPS meters we will actually at least have reliable statistics.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Ol Nik.2518" said:I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.

Now, that was on one particular fight - what about the next one? Perhaps on that one the 1st build does more damage?

That is why when builds are posted on Metabattle or Discretize, etc, it's because they have done all the testing, the research, and have put these builds into practice. Are they perfect? I don't think they are, because they only work in a "laboratory setting" if you will: basically, if you are in an ideal comp, with an ideal computer, with a well practiced and experienced player who knows the rotations and the boss mechanics by heart, you can pull off these numbers. Essentially most of us won't hit those marks - but that doesn't mean the core concept isn't solid, and we just need to manage our expectations.

So what do I mean by that? Well they say that running full Berserker on virtually every Power build is the best DPS. Fine, I won't argue that. But if a player decides to run some Marauder pieces in place of Zerk, they will still be putting out very competitive DPS while having boosted survivability. It's when players figure they can get away with running Soldier or Cavalier armor that we run into problems, or that running Celestial Armor on a Signet D/D thief makes sense because they use every stat...

Now again we are assuming the goal is to be efficient in clearing the instance, and maybe that isn't a particular player's motivation; maybe they just really love using a Greatsword on their Mesmer or Longbow on their Ranger - and that is totally fine, so long as you are grouped up with people who also aren't concerned about killing the boss as efficiently as possible, but you will run into problems if you just join a random LFG expecting them to play on your terms.

Consider the opposite: if you decide you want a slow paced fractal run, killing every NPC, skipping nothing, how would it feel if a player joined the group and kept typing "c'mon go go go go" and was skipping ahead to trigger checkpoints and kept asking why nobody was using "gg"? That would, I bet, be annoying.

Everyone wins when we are considerate of other people, and the LFG window has room for a description, so use it!

[Zaklex.6308]

@yann.1946 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

Believe it or not, but I don't min/max in any strategy games I play...because it's a game and I really don't care most of the time. At least you realized it's an opinion, whether it's weird or not is just your opinion of my opinion.

[Leo G.4501]

@yann.1946 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Shivvies.3921 said:I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

Cheers...

I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective.

Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing.

Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion?

I'd argue the majority of players of chess don't minmax but rather evolve and learn. To minmax in chess is to pull up a chess AI and wade through the many possible moves and try to predict what your opponent will choose...I don't think it's fair to play chess like that. You should rely on your own experience and learned strategies and observations, not on an AI to tell you your moves for you.

...unless you're talking about competitive chess tournaments, which I have zero experience with so have no idea what minmaxing involves there. I'd still argue that most games of chess that occur are not professional level but rather tutorial and to build experience...or for fun.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Ol Nik.2518" said:I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build,

provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.

Oh! That earns credence to my previous observations. I'd take that example one step further and say that, if a player sees their 18k DPS build can do 2k extra damage if they alter certain aspects of their build thanks to the DPS meter, they likely will change their build. However, player preference playing a role, if those aspects that need to be changed also offer a level of entertainment (i.e. it's their favorite part of their character), what outcomes could occur?

One might be that player and a subset of those that support her could appeal to the devs to improve those aspects they enjoy to make them remain competitive. That could have other repercussions though.

Another is the player might just begrudgingly alter their build and complain how there aren't enough build variety or build flexibility.

Yet another is the player just dismisses the improvements and accepts the lower performance so they can keep enjoying the aspects of their character. Might have a snowball effect as performance is emphasized more and more throughout the community who are constantly sharpening their performance to the bleeding edge. I think this is likely what people in this thread complain about. Those mediocre builds are being highlighted ever more as power creep and expectations continue to narrow because many more players resort to the previous option and just go rank and file with the minmax builds. Are those rank and file groups also taking their begrudging attitude out on those not willing to conform? Probably not, but that doesn't change what the dynamic might do.

Again, these aren't arguments against the DPS meter, just observations. I'm sure there are other aspects of the situation I'm overlooking which is why I'm still reading the thread.

@yann.1946 said:Now, that was on one particular fight - what about the next one? Perhaps on that one the 1st build does more damage?

[EDIT] Oh, another aspect I think could be highlighted. I believe people have, in the past, taken issue with the lack of variety of encounter being the symptom of lack of build variety. I'd push it one more step further and highlight how limited the build outputs are, build output relating to what a build actually does. Healing used to not be a thing but that has changed some but is it enough? There's also DPS which breaks down into conditions and direct damage. Then there's boon generation. The only build leg left is CC which is more a vestigial anemic type of build output only facilitated by breakbars. That's about it. And as performance is being narrowed, those legs of build output are being specialized. Like, the field of pet-oriented DPS is going out of style because it's not "active" enough. Buffing roles are not only passive but rely on giving as many types of boons, condensing many roles into 1-2. Condis is just a button-mash of pile on all your condis...there's no distinction of what they actually do. CC is held back because of PvP. etc etc.

In other MMOs, these various legs are exaggerated to the extreme. In GW2, they are downplayed to the extreme. This is reflected in the encounters which rely more on timing, dodging and reading the enemy, none of which have anything to do with build.

[TwiceDead.1963]

@BlueJin.4127 said:Some criminal ran over people with a car. Let’s ban cars!Some criminal stabbed people with a pen. Let’s ban pens!Some criminal chocked people with his hands. Let’s remove peoples’ hands!Some criminal went on a killing spree, also happened to be playing video games on occasion. Let’s ban video games!

fixed that last one.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

DPS meters are a subject repeating again and again. As long as no acceptable solution is available, it will remain the same. I do not want to repeat same than I did in all other threads about the point already. I just tell short version of my thinking: I am one who first hated them and now love to use them, if they are used correctly. I find that:

• DPS meters are good when working together as a team to ensure optimized DPS out (agreed by all), for example in raid (not limited to).
• They are very helpful for self when learning a DPS class, to see when best to cast skills and check if we perform as should be.

Unfortunately, aside of this - like any other tools - there are those who misuse them. Personally, if I agree that as are now, DPS meters are not perfect, I don't believe that that they are the root cause of the problem. Think about it: Generally, in or out of games, whatever tool you take, no matter how good it is, there will always be someone who will achieve to misuse it for unwanted purposes.

So, it is true, as are now, the DPS meters are not ideal and we need a compromise solution, acceptable enough to satisfy both parties (those who like, those who dislike). But it is important to remain realistic: Even if we ever reach a good solution, there will still be players who will find a way around.