TIL the true difference between a PvP tournament winner and a WvW roamer

[Engal.6359]

@Soulock.1752 said:

Is very rare to see Necro in PvP (Except Scourge and Reaper)

That's 2/3 playable necro options....

Also - core necro is starting to see a surprising amount of play

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Reaper is in a good place right now considering where they could be lol their only out gunned due to power creep and if that ever gets addressed reaper would be a top pick I think. A little boost in mobility and it be almost perfect, at least in my meaningless opinion.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The difference is that one thinks anyone actually cares.

[Hitman.5829]

Based on my experience enemies against me (warrior):

• WvW roamer = fight with no fear, head on and with very little kiting or running away.
• PvP player = fight with fear, extreme kiting. They are good and obviously they are making you waste your leap and close gap skills to have an advantage, but come on!

When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

If I had remained stationary with out moving, the "duel" would have never took place.So based on my experience:

• PvP players are more methodical but fights are boring.
• WvW players are less methodical but fights are entertaining.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Hitman.5829" said:Based on my experience enemies against me (warrior):

• WvW roamer = fight with no fear, head on and with very little kiting or running away.
• PvP player = fight with fear, extreme kiting. They are good and obviously they are making you waste your leap and close gap skills to have an advantage, but come on!

When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

If I had remained stationary with out moving, the "duel" would have never took place.So based on my experience:

• PvP players are more methodical but fights are boring.
• WvW players are less methodical but fights are entertaining.So uh how do you verify whether each player is a wvw roamer or pvp player other than the preconception that the later run away?

[Hitman.5829]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Based on my experience enemies against me (warrior):

• WvW roamer = fight with no fear, head on and with very little kiting or running away.
• PvP player = fight with fear, extreme kiting. They are good and obviously they are making you waste your leap and close gap skills to have an advantage, but come on!

When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

If I had remained stationary with out moving, the "duel" would have never took place.So based on my experience:

• PvP players are more methodical but fights are boring.
• WvW players are less methodical but fights are entertaining.So uh how do you verify whether each player is a wvw roamer or pvp player other than the preconception that the later run away?

mmmm I will let you figure that one out for yourself. It should not be that hard.

[Sobx.1758]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Based on my experience enemies against me (warrior):

• WvW roamer = fight with no fear, head on and with very little kiting or running away.
• PvP player = fight with fear, extreme kiting. They are good and obviously they are making you waste your leap and close gap skills to have an advantage, but come on!

When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

If I had remained stationary with out moving, the "duel" would have never took place.So based on my experience:

• PvP players are more methodical but fights are boring.
• WvW players are less methodical but fights are entertaining.So uh how do you verify whether each player is a wvw roamer or pvp player other than the preconception that the later run away?

He's a player that doesn't understand how to react to anything his enemy does. He tries to one shot people and when he fails to do so, he facerolls his skills because he panics. Now we can see that he thinks this kind of gameplay means he's fighting "head on with little fear". In other words: if you understand what you're doing and play around your opponents actions and abilities instead of literally smashing everything you have at your opponent asap, Hitman will tell you it means you're scared and bad.This is probably also why he hates any form of kiting -because he doesn't seem to understand why it usually is more optimal than facerolling your skill bar. Smash your keyboard and you're a pvp god. :D

[Engal.6359]

@Sobx.1758 said:Smash your keyboard and you're a pvp god. :D

As someone who dules actual Gods of PvP on occasion I can tell you that this is very wrong ?

PvP is about wayyyy more than skill spamming.

[Engal.6359]

@"Hitman.5829" said:When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

Wait. So you ran into a "pvper" on a war. And because he was a pvper he ran away. And because he ran away, he was obviously a pvper....

Circular logic much?

As a pvper myself, I can tell you that the kiting and more skilled gameplay that you're attempting to deride lets me 1v3 and 1v4 you "brave and strong" wvw types ?

[Sobx.1758]

@Engal.6359 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Smash your keyboard and you're a pvp god. :D

As someone who dules

actual

Gods of PvP on occasion I can tell you that this is

very

wrong ?

PvP is about wayyyy more than skill spamming.

Maybe try reading the whole post?

[Soulock.1752]

@Engal.6359 said:

@"Soulock.1752" said:

Is very rare to see Necro in PvP (Except Scourge and Reaper)

That's 2/3 playable necro options....

Also - core necro is starting to see a surprising amount of play

Best Solo Roaming Core Necro player I've ever seen in WvW (outnumbered) ?

[Widmo.3186]

@"Hitman.5829" said:Based on my experience enemies against me (warrior):

• WvW roamer = fight with no fear, head on and with very little kiting or running away.
• PvP player = fight with fear, extreme kiting. They are good and obviously they are making you waste your leap and close gap skills to have an advantage, but come on!

When I encounter these types of players (PvP players) they run to the left and when I see they do that, I run to the right; I get out of combat and ignore them.I once had a duel with a warrior. It was a Warr Vs Warr duel. he kept running away and kiting me on a war vs war duel. What the BLIP is that?

If I had remained stationary with out moving, the "duel" would have never took place.So based on my experience:

• PvP players are more methodical but fights are boring.
• WvW players are less methodical but fights are entertaining.

People who are dueling warriors with tons of CC-chains and straightforward damage with linear gameplay without blinks/teleports are usually kiting them? NO WAY! This game is full of cowards, real men would stand in one place and facetank full GS 2 showing his toughness and inner strength!Like for real, if you are not PvE player Hitman, I lost my faith in this game "competetive" community

@Engal.6359 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Smash your keyboard and you're a pvp god. :D

As someone who dules

actual

Gods of PvP on occasion I can tell you that this is

very

wrong ?

PvP is about wayyyy more than skill spamming.

Wow, really? Who would've known.Btw from my experience, usually ppl with Legend titles and even God of PvP one are cocky and not so good in dueling. Yes, they know how to play Conquest thingy, but in 1v1 theyre just above average, not best of their kind (class).

[Engal.6359]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Smash your keyboard and you're a pvp god. :D

As someone who dules

actual

Gods of PvP on occasion I can tell you that this is

very

wrong ?

PvP is about wayyyy more than skill spamming.

Maybe try reading the whole post?

But why when I can simply take the quote out of context to make an unrelated point?

[Engal.6359]

@Soulock.1752 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Soulock.1752 said:

Is very rare to see Necro in PvP (Except Scourge and Reaper)

That's 2/3 playable necro options....

Also - core necro is starting to see a surprising amount of play

Best Solo Roaming Core Necro player I've ever seen in WvW (outnumbered) ?

Core terrormancer is also seeing some play in pvp which is nice. More build diversity is always good.

[Zawn.9647]

i find it funny how people "confuse" kiting with running away :disappointed:

[Engal.6359]

@"Zawn.9647" said:i find it funny how people "confuse" kiting with running away :disappointed:

If you lose it's running away.

But if you win, its kiting ?

[bigo.9037]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Holo is like, the strongest duelist in the game. I'm not surprised you couldn't take him down on necro, which isn't a great 1v1.

Right. Most good roamers do spvp as well... Idk man. I play spvp and roam solo. Both on same build soulbeast. Last time I saw a low wvw rank holo who I knew was from spvp he seemed pretty good, but totally forgot that players aren't glued to a conquest node and I out kited him really easily. Holos in melee range are hard to beat for pretty much any class in a 1v1..

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'd wager at this point it's mostly that the top end of WvW, especially when it comes to small-scaling, has left the game, and the skill gap was never filled because most of what's broken in WvW with very low skill requirement involved isn't dominant in sPvP - at least not enough where it works at the higher tiers of play. Some of the easiest builds are very high-potency, such as Soulbeast, which still haven't been reigned in. Quad-stat armor and boon spam/build-defining food items also help contribute to more spammy and forgiving play in WvW, which used to not be as much of a case back when mechanics were simpler and build/stat investment played a more significant part in elements of risk/reward for most classes. Add stupid gimmicks like mounts, guild buffs, etc., and the skill requirement to be effective and the incentives for small groups of skilled roamers and havoc players to stick around (thousands of gold for +5 supply which used to be free for example) drops off pretty hard.

Having fought with a lot of people from both camps over the years, and helping train a bunch more to get into the higher tiers of sPvP (and playing some cheese there myself - hello unkillable bunker healing power thief from the days of old), the WvW skill decline started almost immediately after HoT and never recovered, while a lot of the PvP diehards are still there with the improved ranked rewards and generally tighter balance, despite the stale meta, but the PvP meta has largely been stale and non-evolutionary since launch, keeping and maintaining those players with a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality. Ultimately, this staleness was why PvP never succeeded and why WvW had such an earlier booming population (huge format-wide build diversity, specialist goals/roles, a constantly-evolving meta save GWEN blobs due to the nature of AoE support being restricted to those classes, and even then, there were still creative adaptations that got taken like venom-wells and PF wombo-combo).

Ultimately, it comes down to my previous post in another thread about fostering a competitive environment. While ANet never succeeded in making sPvP that competitive, they downright failed WvW. There really no longer is a semblance of skill involved in the format.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Soulock.1752" said:

Not the worst Necro I've seen, but not exceptional either.

I think this person is one of the better WvW core Necros I'm aware of. Certainly not the best Necromancer out there, but I haven't seen better WvW core Necro gameplay than what this guy shows. Especially considering he's full glass and does a superb job of kiting and positioning himself.

[Zawn.9647]

@Engal.6359 said:

@"Zawn.9647" said:i find it funny how people "confuse" kiting with running away :disappointed:

If you

lose

it's running away.

But if you

win

, its kiting ?

ROFL. 10/10

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"Mechanix.9315" said:Bronze division is waiting for you!

The PvP mains in their PvP forum think I'm good enough for low Plat though :#

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73646/requesting-for-your-pvp-dueling-expertise-to-pick-the-best-of-each-class

[Arcaedus.7290]

The thing is that the WvW roamers who are truly good at dueling (and not trying to faceroll you with some bs build) also play pvp. In order to become good at something, you have to practice a lot. It's time-based improvement. You can get far more fight-practice in pvp than you can in wvw per unit time, so if you have two duelists, one who only does pvp, and the other who only does WvW (both for same amount of time), 9 times out of 10 the pvp player will win a duel.

You should totally play pvp! It will help you improve. You don't have to live there to get your fix, but checking out that free-for all arena and frequenting the dueling/1v1 arenas in pvp will do a lot for you.

Personally I do both (I think I spend more overall time in wvw, but in terms of fighting, more time is spent fighting in pvp) and while I find way more action in pvp, there's something about roaming that you just don't quite get from pvp which is nice.

[zinkz.7045]

The difference is most WvW roamers are under the delusion that being "skilled" at this game is all about the combat.

Which is amusing given that in the grand scheme of PvP games GW2's combat is mechanically undemanding, pretty forgiving, not particularly fast or twitchy, spammy, imprecise, balance is terrible in WvW so cheese carries hard and to top it off the game even bloody aims for you.

[Silinsar.6298]

@"Arcaedus.7290" said:The thing is that the WvW roamers who are truly good at dueling (and not trying to faceroll you with some bs build) also play pvp. In order to become good at something, you have to practice a lot. It's time-based improvement. You can get far more fight-practice in pvp than you can in wvw per unit time, so if you have two duelists, one who only does pvp, and the other who only does WvW (both for same amount of time), 9 times out of 10 the pvp player will win a duel.

Yes and no. To some extent, especially when starting out, sPvP is great practice. And for brushing up mechanical skill. However, while you get more fights / time, the fights have different goals (holding points and secondary objectives), the builds are different (or don't perform as well or as bad as in WvW), as are the underlying options (gear, runes, sigils, food...). In sPvP you might win a battle but lose the fight (/ round). You'll have to learn and play in WvW to get to know the differences. WvW has more variety (like XvsYvsZ situations, NPCs interfering, water combat, ...) and does a better job at teaching you to react to unusual situations and builds (at least it used to, roamer builds feel less varied these days). The modes really are two different beasts once you get beyond the foundations / the general skill you can apply in both.I agree that nowadays good, instructive fights have become rare (WvW used to have a lot of dedicated duelers). However, in sPvP often rotations are the deciding factor and you get +1'nd before you get into the intricacies of an even fight.

I remember getting into sPvP the first time (after only having dabbled in it before) after A LOT of roaming and dueling in WvW: they were the first dozen of games (rating adjusted), so the feeling didn't last, but until I reached rather good ratings on the leaderboard most fights were like "uh, this is really just one or two enemies most of the time, I've had to deal with many more in WvW". While you could expect more challenge from high rated players, having played WvW made me used counter play multiple enemies and not be easily overwhelmed by them. You also get a feeling for how groups move usually, how to bait some in to a dangerous position while avoiding others etc. . Power creep muddled things a bit, but WvW feels more instinctual (because you more often have to deal with a ton of unknown variables popping up), sPvP is more like planned execution of certain tactics and honing these executions to perfection. But sPvP has more limits and situations that go beyond them might be harder for a sPvP to adapt to.

In the end, when it comes to a strict 1vs1 encounter (with a hypothetical even matchup of different builds), if both players are good, it doesn't come down to who is a lot or just a bit better in general, but who has more experience with that particular matchup in the given mode, how well they read each other and how their playstyles interact. Sometimes you meet enemies that aren't bad, but also not that good, whose playstyle works really well vs you (this is partly due to the fact that unexpected sub-optimal play can work better than expected optimal play * ). And sometimes you beat players that you know to be better than their performance makes them look. That's why I don't go about claiming a player's bad because he's been beaten by me, even if it seemed easy and/or following encounters end similarly. I only have one perspective and can estimate his skill for that particular matchup I create for him. Said player (and the build) might be doing better than me in a lot of other situations.

* A little more detail on that: in case you know Yomi (the game by sirlin), there used to be a "wisdom" on the forums that was basically: top player>veteran>noob>top player. Not that noobs really consistently beat top players more often than not, but they achieved a higher win rate vs them than veterans, due to being less predictable.

[bigo.9037]

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@"Arcaedus.7290" said:The thing is that the WvW roamers who are truly good at dueling (and not trying to faceroll you with some bs build) also play pvp. In order to become good at something, you have to practice a lot. It's time-based improvement. You can get far more fight-practice in pvp than you can in wvw per unit time, so if you have two duelists, one who only does pvp, and the other who only does WvW (both for same amount of time), 9 times out of 10 the pvp player will win a duel.

Yes and no. To some extent, especially when starting out, sPvP is great practice. And for brushing up mechanical skill. However, while you get more fights / time, the fights have different goals (holding points and secondary objectives), the builds are different (or don't perform as well or as bad as in WvW), as are the underlying options (gear, runes, sigils, food...). In sPvP you might win a battle but lose the fight (/ round). You'll have to learn and play in WvW to get to know the differences. WvW has more variety (like XvsYvsZ situations, NPCs interfering, water combat, ...) and does a better job at teaching you to react to unusual situations and builds (at least it used to, roamer builds feel less varied these days). The modes really are two different beasts once you get beyond the foundations / the general skill you can apply in both.I agree that nowadays good, instructive fights have become rare (WvW used to have a lot of dedicated duelers). However, in sPvP often rotations are the deciding factor and you get +1'nd before you get into the intricacies of an even fight.

I remember getting into sPvP the first time (after only having dabbled in it before) after A LOT of roaming and dueling in WvW: they were the first dozen of games (rating adjusted), so the feeling didn't last, but until I reached rather good ratings on the leaderboard most fights were like "uh, this is really just one or two enemies most of the time, I've had to deal with many more in WvW". While you could expect more challenge from high rated players, having played WvW made me used counter play multiple enemies and not be easily overwhelmed by them. You also get a feeling for how groups move

usually

, how to bait some in to a dangerous position while avoiding others etc. . Power creep muddled things a bit, but WvW feels more instinctual (because you more often have to deal with a ton of unknown variables popping up), sPvP is more like planned execution of certain tactics and honing these executions to perfection. But sPvP has more limits and situations that go beyond them might be harder for a sPvP to adapt to.

In the end, when it comes to a strict 1vs1 encounter (with a hypothetical even matchup of different builds), if both players are good, it doesn't come down to who is a lot or just a bit better in general, but who has more experience with that particular matchup in the given mode, how well they read each other and how their playstyles interact. Sometimes you meet enemies that aren't bad, but also not

that

good, whose playstyle works really well vs you (this is partly due to the fact that unexpected sub-optimal play can work better than expected optimal play * ). And sometimes you beat players that you know to be better than their performance makes them look. That's why I don't go about claiming a player's bad because he's been beaten by me, even if it seemed easy and/or following encounters end similarly. I only have one perspective and can estimate his skill for that particular matchup I create for him. Said player (and the build) might be doing better than me in a lot of other situations.

* A little more detail on that: in case you know Yomi (the game by sirlin), there used to be a "wisdom" on the forums that was basically: top player>veteran>noob>top player. Not that noobs really consistently beat top players more often than not, but they achieved a higher win rate vs them than veterans, due to being less predictable.

This is a perfect description of combat in this game. Perfect. Saving this for future reference..