Would you like a set of core-only utilities to even out the power creep?

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Ok, we all know core nec sucks compared to elites and there's no way some small tradeoffs (like reaper's 5% lf degen) will truly fix that gaping chasm. So i was thinking - what if core necro got a set of core-only utilities instead? Like glyphs! He would have utilities while shrouded, something unique to core spec!

And while there, why not use that method (core only set of utilities) to help even out the gap between other core and elite specs?I can imagine some other profession would like to see some nice utility skills that would get outta hand on elites, but would be just fine in their core builds!What's your take on a-net taking such a direction to even out the specs?

[Vavume.8065]

It's not a bad idea, although I think it would make creating builds even more difficult to understand for new players.

[Naxos.2503]

Certainly makes more sense than adding drawbacks after drawbacks on elite specs. Those are meant to be selling points... Not to mention it'd definitely encourage players to look at core specs on an equal level as Elite specs if they get access to something that is core-only, as opposed to the current state.

[Tiger.9786]

I'm gonna be honest I just want new stuff!Though I do think this could be good. There's already SOME viable core spec builds so more would be nice and would kinda feel like new elite specs in a way. Actually seems perfect for next season since we're not getting a new expansion yet.

[Funky.4861]

I like the idea; you're basically turning DS into a type of Celestial Avatar. Could be interesting, but also a lot of work to revamp the flipside of normal utilities. On the other hand, DS already has underwater skills- maybe they could do the equivalent on land with utility skills?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

... but, why stop at utilities, I personally want an core elite spec.

Make getting an elite spec part of unlocking the third line. No more weaker core spec in the third line, but a superior version of it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Just completing the existing core utility sets would be enough, there is alot missing, while the elites are always complete. For example, core Guardian lacks a spirit weapon in #6 (bow should be moved here), and #0, and a Consecration in #6 and #0 too.

[DonArkanio.6419]

That is actually a cool idea. I haven't thought about it. It would get along with the current durection ANet is heading towards, which is - trade-offs.

I am pretty sure there would be a way to balance around it. Sadly, we could take some o the current skill and turn them into Core-Only, but now when they're all specified for the Traits, I am afraid it's no longer an option.

So, yeah! I think this could be a good way of trade-offs. I really like the way they reworked Berserker, 5th Toolbelt on Engi and Chronomancer's Shatters. Swipe on Thief is arguable, butwe'll see how things go.

[Einlanzer.1627]

All they actually need to do is buff or change how Toughness/Vitality/HP work, which is overdue anyway.

Toughness in particular has been way too underpowered for too long. Toughness was supposed to provide counterplay to power that conditions could bypass, but then the balance devs, applying outdated concepts for EQ, buffed conditions by extending their durations so they can compete with power against light toughness/armor, so now the stat doesn't really amount to a hill of beans against either. Classic Anet balance not understanding their own game properly.

[hatsamu.4327]

Is it really possible to use optional utilities to balance against baseline traits/mechanics? I'd be worried that if the devs give core specs power through utilities and start balancing around them, these new utilities would become mandatory in order to play core specs effectively. It'd be like another trade-off for core: choice/flexibility for power.

[Rauderi.8706]

I know what could work for special core-only skills:Finishing up the actual core skill groups! Like a Warrior Healing Banner or Mesmer Elite Mantra.

[joneirikb.7506]

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:All they actually need to do is buff or change how Toughness/Vitality/HP work, which is overdue anyway.

Toughness in particular has been way too underpowered for too long. Toughness was supposed to provide counterplay to power that conditions could bypass, but then the balance devs, applying outdated concepts for EQ, buffed conditions by extending their durations so they can compete with power against light toughness/armor, so now the stat doesn't really amount to a hill of beans against either. Classic Anet balance not understanding their own game properly.

The problem with Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power isn't the balance, but the action combat and general game design. Essentially they put stats into the game that doesn't work well with the game itself.

Essentially, with GW2's Action Combat, the defensive stats becomes the "outdated concepts from EQ" (or other more old-school RPG'ish game). And ANet should likely have made other stats instead of those to fit better with the Action Combat. But that was likely a difficult thing to do at the time, they don't have the hindsight they/we have now.

Boon Duration, Boon Efficiency, Condi Duration. Those would likely have worked better as defensive stats than Tough/Vit/Heal, especially if designed in from the start. (Anything added or changed now, would likely just become a mess though, too late in games life)

[mindcircus.1506]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Ok, we all know core nec sucks compared to elites and there's no way some small tradeoffs (like reaper's 5% lf degen) will truly fix that gaping chasm. So i was thinking - what if core necro got a set of core-only utilities instead? Like glyphs! He would have utilities while shrouded, something unique to core spec!

And while there, why not use that method (core only set of utilities) to help even out the gap between other core and elite specs?I can imagine some other profession would like to see some nice utility skills that would get outta hand on elites, but would be just fine in their core builds!What's your take on a-net taking such a direction to even out the specs?

Would rather see the effort that goes into these spent on new elite specs.

[joneirikb.7506]

Give Signets only to Core classes, 90% of players will stick with core, problem solved. ;)

Joke aside.

To simplify things, there are 2 ways to approach this:

• Make a core "Elite"
• Balance everything

You're aiming for the first one.

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In order to make a own set of core only stuff, you are going to basically also have a trait line for that, especially to buff those skills. The alternative is basically that those skills are so powerful without the trait buffs, that you'd almost always take them anyways.

The most common idea for this thrown around on the forums (since 2015) is to take one of the existing core trait-line and upgrade it to an "Elite", typically the 5th trait line, the one dedicated to the class' profession mechanic (Example the "Virtues" line for Guardian).

This would likely shuffle some traits around, especially remove any weapon traits, and other "skill" traits from said line for each class. And probably give it a good thump in the back down the path of power-creep, in order to match up with the alternatives.

At which point we more or less end up with the 3rd trait almost "forced" to be one of the "elites" or the "core elite". There is a balance in uniformity I guess.

Theoretically: It is possible they manage to make a set of utility skills (7-9 only, no heal/elite), that actually each strongly benefits for one specific game mode, that the skill becomes almost build defining for each mode. There is also a slight chance they might be able to balance it, though I really doubt it.

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The other alternative is to balance everything, which is what they are attempting with the giving Trade-Off's currently. It's a good idea, but one I unfortunately don't think they'll be able to manage, simply because of the horrible track record since The 23.06.2015 patch, and the change in game/balance philosophy at that time.

To be clear, I really hope they prove me wrong on this.

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tldr: I think you need to think about the idea some more, figure out just how much you'd need to compete with the "elite" specs, and exactly what your idea hopes to accomplish and how to accomplish it.

[Zzik.5873]

If anet would to do this I cant imagine as a engi main they would remove turret or elixir... wich are how to say mandatory

[Daddicus.6128]

I would rather they just created an elite spec for the baseline professions, and beef them up to the same level as the other elites in the profession.

So, supportive, but I would like to see simpler.

[Deimos.4263]

Adding new core-only things would not be the right approach in my opinion, the core classes are meant to be generalists and the elites are meant to be specialists. The problem is elite specializations are elite, but not specialized. They're just better in most cases. I think that's the problem we're trying to solve; how to buff core without buffing them too.

Some random spitball ideas below. I'm a guardian main so that's why my examples are about guardians. (Sorry I don't really speak necro.)

1. You could just give elite specializations one less trait line altogether. There's nothing wrong with a trait line being "elite", ie. better, but a specialist class shouldn't be flat-out better than a generalist. It should be a trade-off; greater effectiveness in one area vs. flexibility.
2. You could tie groups of existing core utilities to specific trait-lines. eg. Meditations utilities now require the Valor trait-line. With elite specializations forcing you to take one specific trait-line, this reduces their flexibility compared to core in terms of utilities available.
3. You could do both of the above.
4. Or you could change the way elite specializations work entirely. Instead of an elite trait-line, make it an elite trait-line slot. Make a standard and elite version of them all, and let the player decide which trait-line goes in the elite slot. You want to play an Elite Honor Guardian with a side order of firebrand and dragonhunter? Go ahead. That's probably far too much of a rework to ever happen, though.

My personal favorite is #1.

[Hesacon.8735]

I'd rather have it be a difficult decision to drop a third trait line to carry the elite specialization one. Certain classes I can't justify taking an elite trait line over 3 core ones, which is where I think things ought to be.

Replacing mechanics is also a good way to differentiate them. Core warrior plays different than either elite, same for core necro's mechanics, and even core rev recently got some love after being overlooked with the launch of HoT.

[crepuscular.9047]

well, they are called 'elite' for a reason, they are power-up to the core specs; and anet needs a reason to make people want to buy expansions

the fact that these are core, meaning they will be accessible to elite specs, meaning you are adding more power to elite specs

also, that means Anet will need to add additional items into the current core spec 'wheels', and more items to maintainhence the new utilities will need to replace existing utilities, not added

the gigantic elephant in the room has always been anet approach to tuning underpower classes by giving them more power rather than dial back the other classes

it's easier on their end i guess... they can make changes to 1 thing, rather than 8 things

[Asum.4960]

I'd rather see the core categories completed, as well as a buff/rework of the plenty utility skills that almost never see use due to being severely underpowered and outdated, while having Elite specs themselves be further brought back in line.

Especially on Necromancer I often find myself struggling to choose what Utilities to bring along, not because there are so many good options of which I have a meaningful choice to make between, but because almost all of them are pretty crap.It's just the same meh Utilities since launch, even for a lot of other professions, unless some Elitespec brought something much better along.

Releasing a presumably stronger or at least more fit for where the game is today core only set of Utilities would either for a lot of profession with a terrible core (aka Necro) mean they will never see use, or for professions with a good core mean they'll probably overshadow most of the launch Utilities, reducing variety even further.

Both of which doesn't seem like a desirable outcome and I'd rather have a major Utility rework, with a focus on actual Utility, providing tough choices and good enough options that you may want to swap depending on whatever challenge you are facing.

(Guardian is a good example of this working as intended imo. Although even there are some pretty dead Utilities since launch that could use some love)