Revenant in PvP

[Virdo.1540]

I know, anet has fun stomping Revs (mainly herald) into the ground when it comes to pvp. No damage at all ,not even with Shiro (assassin legend for who doesnt know)Tiny sustain,but nvm.

Im ok if they decide to let the rev make no damage, but Is the incredible high amount of energy usage in Shiro necessary? We dont use it at all, cuz it makes no damage and doesnt even give superspeed anymore. It even drains the whole energy bar in seconds.... I think it should have at least Energy-drain like in Pve.Facet of Chaos too. 5/10 Energy bars just for having a bit of protection? Seriously?

[Xervite.5493]

Without superspeed yup IO does suck but yeah people will simply bring up the trait rising momentum saying it'll compensate for the loss. What about renegade? I really loved my superspeed especially in pve where I could outrun anything :/

[Koen.1327]

i disagree, burst dmg of rev is still very high - nothing really changed about that recentlyit got some minor nerfs, but position in the meta mainly changed because of addition of condi thief and removal of bunker scrapper

and facet of chaos provides like 15 seconds of protection (pulsing) just by using release after right away, how is the 'a bit of protection'?the general sustain of herald has increased because people dropped the might giving traits in favor of heals

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

O dmg at all, stop using bunker amulets then

[saerni.2584]

I don’t understand how you don’t have burst damage as a rev.

[alain.1659]

Wait wut? Rev has one of the best (if not the best) burst dmg combos in the game, both in pvp and in wvw. Maybe you were talking about the "Revenant" from D&D, the undead creature?

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Eh, Shiro has very fair energy costs (although IO less so since the superspeed change). Both PT and RS are really stacked skills and offer a ton of utility. Having an LoS-ignoring port that grants quickness and unblockable is a huge boost to offensive potential, and being able to chain evades with Riposting Shadows may not help offensively, but allows for a highly mobile and evasive playstyle that lends well to the spike damage that the class excels at. Jade Winds has a steep energy cost, but if successfully used, has a huge impact (it affects y-axis as well) so the cost is justified despite it often being hard to properly execute.

Also, the upkeep on Facet of Chaos is totally fair considering you can get insane prot uptime with some boon duration and/or Draconic Echo. Comparitively, it has a much more lenient energy cost than say Rite of the Great Dwarf.

[Virdo.1540]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Eh, Shiro has very fair energy costs (although IO less so since the superspeed change). Both PT and RS are really stacked skills and offer a ton of utility. Having an LoS-ignoring port that grants quickness and unblockable is a huge boost to offensive potential, and being able to chain evades with Riposting Shadows may not help offensively, but allows for a highly mobile and evasive playstyle that lends well to the spike damage that the class excels at. Jade Winds has a steep energy cost, but if successfully used, has a huge impact (it affects y-axis as well) so the cost is justified despite it often being hard to properly execute.

Also, the upkeep on Facet of Chaos is totally fair considering you can get insane prot uptime with some boon duration and/or Draconic Echo. Comparitively, it has a much more lenient energy cost than say Rite of the Great Dwarf.

nobody uses concentration as stat there + Draconic echo is a major dmg loss (even more)

[Virdo.1540]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:O dmg at all, stop using bunker amulets then

well then u obviously count marauder as bunker lol

[Ario.8964]

Rev damage is fine the way it is right now. I have 0 problem taking targets down quickly and I don't feel like I ever have a period where I can't do any damage at all. This is coming from someone using mara as well as drachonic echo (which is a p big dmg loss over FP). I wouldn't touch anything in that area, but what really needs to happen is a few things:1) Removal of root to shield 5 to make it a viable defensive tool for kiting and put it at a level that can compete with OH sword (also allows for more success on herald in condi focused games since you can use the shield trait for more removal)2) Removal of rising momentum (Put superspeed back on IO so the skill is worth the energy cost and can still provide mobility to people that don't use herald) replace it with something else (I'd give a suggestion but I haven't thought enough about it to give a reasonable one)3) Rework of F1 for glint stance since it's p underwhelming just to get a small boost to boon duration (I'd rather see it behave like the old true nature consume but maybe with less boon duration on the boons applied?)

All that being said, Herald is still hella strong if you are willing to tweak your build from the cookie cutter max damage meta. The "meta" is somewhat weak solo and doesn't handle conditions well. By swapping to DE, rapid flow, and core value over the other selections as well as adding rune of resistance over leadership or other options you allow yourself to handle condition pressure on a much more consistent basis as well as improving sustain and general tankiness for fights or matches where you may not have a reliable support. You also don't lose mobility since rapid flow provides you with perma swiftness.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Don't feed the troll, folks.

[Lighter.5631]

what are you talking about, rev damage need shave, sword 5 alone does like 4.5k damage

[Virdo.1540]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Don't feed the troll, folks.

not a troll lol

[Virdo.1540]

@Lighter.5631 said:what are you talking about, rev damage need shave, sword 5 alone does like 4.5k damage

and maul does +20k

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:what are you talking about, rev damage need shave, sword 5 alone does like 4.5k damage

and maul does +20k

one of them is not like the other.

[Virdo.1540]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:what are you talking about, rev damage need shave, sword 5 alone does like 4.5k damage

and maul does +20k

one of them is not like the other.

just wanted to mention that the 4,5k dmg from sword5 isnt much compared to every other class, which have +20k dmg skills

[Widmo.3186]

Just like the others, i dont agree with OP. Rev dmg and overall position is fine. Number of "thumbs up" on OP also shows how things are.If thats not a troll, might be l2p issue.

[Virdo.1540]

@"Widmo.3186" said:Just like the others, i dont agree with OP. Rev dmg and overall position is fine. Number of "thumbs up" on OP also shows how things are.If thats not a troll, might be l2p issue.

not l2p if the herald has compared to other classes even lower movement, sustain and damage (for example ranger, warrior, mesmer, ele)

[Tayga.3192]

@Virdo.1540 said:and maul does +20k

Ranger GS needs huge nerfs tbh, not a valid comparison

[Virdo.1540]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:and maul does +20k

Ranger GS needs huge nerfs tbh, not a valid comparison

or warrior gs f1

[Lighter.5631]

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:what are you talking about, rev damage need shave, sword 5 alone does like 4.5k damage

and maul does +20k

sword 5 has 0 animation and rev is 100x harder to kill compared to 20k maul ranger

[Ouk.5914]

Rev dps is perfectly fine if Not busted along side Holo and Ranger.

Issue here is a simple Learn to play, If you are comparing Ranger pet dps output to rev then you have no clear discussion for anyone to take this post serious. Rev Might have shit sustain depending on what spec you are playing but if you are playing for a dps spec then you need to understand the fact that rev can 100-0 someone in an instant is major. The Fact Rev's Can teleport around to drop dps on people is major for this meta and Once the Holo Nerf, and Necro nerf coming in we'll see them back in being probably the most busted spec for spvp. Not Having Necro's around next meta is going to be such hazard for this game but we'll see what's sup with anet once they ever decided to do an actual balance patch.

[ArthurDent.9538]

This debate so to say is actually part of an interesting situation where we have populations from two different game modes looking at the same data and coming to wildly different conclusions. Pvp'ers tend to think rev has crazy high burst damage while pve'ers tend to consider rev one of the lowest power dps classes for both sustained and burst damage (it was literally dead last until the last balance patch, now it's still lowest burst and second lowest sustained damage in pve). When this perspective is presented, pvp'ers scream "PVp iS nOt = pVE!!!!11" which is totally true, as even neglecting stuff like ascended gear/food since they affect all classes more or less equally, there are numerous skill splits between the two game modes. However acknowledging these splits lends more credence to the side saying rev power damage is low in pvp. Make no mistake, most power builds in this game have some rather large splits where the pvp version of a skill is nerfed or the pve version buffed, however there is a spectrum on one end Ele has pretty much all of it's power damage potential intact in pvp, on the other end rev and power mes have massive splits which relatively neuter their damage potential in pvp. For power rev for instance every single skill in its dps rotation has been skill split to be weaker in pvp than in pve with the sole exception of sword 5 and many of these splits are big too.

Non exhaustive list of some of the bigger splits going from Pvp to Pve:Sword 2: ~63% more damage, 17% shorter cdSword 3: 38% more damageSword 4: 38% more damageStaff 5: 100% more damageImpossible Odds: 22% more damage, 25% reduced upkeep costBurst of Strength: 25% more damage, 67% stronger damage buff, 20% shorter cd

This is just listing some of the larger splits, there are lots of smaller ones, and even when all of those buffs are applied in pve it is still bottom tier damage dealer. The only other class that comes close to this severe of a damage reduction in pvp from skill splits is mesmer which took a huge hit with the chrono phantasma change + most phantasms having their damage cut heavily.

The traditional argument that could be made was that Herald was self sufficient and can self stack 25 might easily which wasn't a bad point to make until Anet absolutely gutted herald might stacking capabilities with most might sources having either the number of stacks slashed in half, the duration of those stacks slashed in half, or both (see incensed response). Currently the only way power herald can hit 20+ might stacks is with all 3 might stacking major traits, strength runes, a might stacking sigil, and a fair bit of energy investment as it falls off quite fast if you are not camping facet of strength/darkness and constantly proccing sigil of courage none of which is really practical. Anecdotally In real fights, getting 10-15 stacks on average in combat is being generous which is pretty crappy considering strength rune + courage sigil can acquire 8 stacks on its own independent of class. Most other classes do not require nearly that much investment to hit 20 stacks of might solo, even renegade has a much easier time of it with traited orders from above being a much stronger might stacking skill than facet of strength + shared empowerment. Modern herald builds have started taking extra sources of quickness in the form of brutality and song of the mists, which is another form of self buffing, but they give up a damage multiplier and a crit chance multiplier to get those so it isn't like they are getting highish quickness up times without losing damage in other regards, it is a trade of less damage per hit for more hits per second not just free self buffing on top of the pure dps build. Then there was vulnerability stacking which was gutted for rev a long time ago when the trait exposed defenses replaced mutilate defenses.

So how is a class that does such low damage on paper get the reputation from the pvp community that it does "one of the best (if not the best) burst dmg combos in the game" when the numbers simply don't support that. A large part of it is that they are comparing pseudo bunker builds with numerous defensive traits and utilities to a rev build that runs a near full damage trait set up, but I would say it is incredibly illogical to make this comparison and then take it as evidence that rev is a high power damage class. It would be interesting to see someone try to make an actual mathematical argument for it that doesn't including copious amounts of anecdotes from non controlled situations or doing stupid stuff like comparing bunker/pseudo bunker builds to invocation devastation heralds.

As for me I'll say there are 2 things power rev still has going for it as I can't remotely agree with the dogma that rev has great or even good burst potential when compared to all the other classes in the game. 1 It is good at chasing it's opponents, not thief levels of chasing mobility and pretty poor run away from a losing fight mobility but still quite effective at sticking to targets to deliver what burst they are capable of. Though gap closers always have the double edged effect where closing the gap with the enemy also closes the enemy's gap with you leaving you vulnerable to counter pressure and 35 energy less from phase traversal cost. Second, the ability to go into defensive mode while pressured by reallocating energy usage to defensive skills. When rev goes defensive mode and uses energy primarily on riposting shadows in shiro then evade/block weapon skills in glint, they can be quite hard to lock down and kill. They do almost no damage during this mode and their sustain is low with poor disengage so they will die eventually but they can stall pretty effectively until their team has done something with the bought time. Once they are done stalling they can go on offensive mode again all with the same build by simply investing energy into phase traversal, impossible odds, and sword off hand skills instead. This went on a long time but the current situation is less straight forward then "op thinks rev has low burst lul don't feed the troll".

[otto.5684]

I think that Anet slightly over nerfed power rev, but it is still okay. I think that nerfing the fury bonus from 40% to 30% was not the right way to go, but reducing the might stacking was good change (and waiting for this to be done to all classes. But Anet needs 50 patches to fix shit).

My issues with rev is lack of any other build but the shiro/glint power burst build.

Condi rev? Dead.Renegade? Even worse.A bruiser build using shield and/or jailis? Mediocre.Support? Mediocre.

And this has been the case since.. 3+ years now.

[Aeolus.3615]

@otto.5684 said:I think that Anet slightly over nerfed power rev, but it is still okay. I think that nerfing the fury bonus from 40% to 30% was not the right way to go, but reducing the might stacking was good change (and waiting for this to be done to all classes. But Anet needs 50 patches to fix kitten).

My issues with rev is lack of any other build but the shiro/glint power burst build.

Condi rev? Dead.Renegade? Even worse.A bruiser build using shield and/or jailis? Mediocre.Support? Mediocre.

And this has been the case since.. 3+ years now.

Depends for random encounters with no organized groups/players it’s harder outside few gimmicks, or if You are with queueing with a team.

Overall I liked to play herald ventari it was fun how some even /laugh but could not kill me or I delayed home waiting for help, could also support team in middle, after that came the rage like omg noob build from enemy comments cause I was healing my team on point or could use ventari dome to avoid ranger spikes, Diamond/gold players should not make those rashly comments....

I did a queue with 2 other members from guild one fb and and a SpellB that resulted in the enemy runing a 3-4 one group to actually try to kill us, but at first was the same laught on ventari then the rage due well timed spikes heals or damage negation with ventari dome.

Still I found difficult since some skills will bypass the herald heal activation and will cause u damage rather than heal you on damage received. Mostly from holos skills.