Hello balance team, I think u forgot some stuff

[Kilrik.6320]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Kilrik.6320 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

Doesnt Reaper/Ranger/Warrior also have shouts?

Ranger does not...... :anguished:

Hmmm.....as of May 2019 shouts were made into Command skills....interesting and seemingly unneeded

Yeah kinda surprising like the greatsword and sword nerfs....just why....Most were expecting some form of nerf to longbow...and now some jump off the sinking ship, some try to bail water and patch up the holes with some build bypass and others pretend like the ship is in better shape than ever.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Kilrik.6320 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Kilrik.6320 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

Doesnt Reaper/Ranger/Warrior also have shouts?

Ranger does not...... :anguished:

Hmmm.....as of May 2019 shouts were made into Command skills....interesting and seemingly unneeded

Yeah kinda surprising like the greatsword and sword nerfs....just why....Most were expecting some form of nerf to longbow...and now some jump off the sinking ship, some try to bail water and patch up the holes with some build bypass and others pretend like the ship is in better shape than ever.

Welp, that means my old Druid shout build will never make a comeback as well...RIP 2 good builds I had that Anet changed skills to the point of no return to them

[Sarrs.4831]

Shouts are fine, if anything's the problem it'd be Shrug It Off I think. Even then I can't see it being that bad.

[Kilrik.6320]

On topic, shout cleanse was never overtuned. People always point to the number of slots like saying they can equip 5 extra condi-cleanses, but they most often forget it only cleanses one condition and not necessarily the one you want cleansed. "By Balthazar's beard I'm still in the game now that my shout cleared that cripple, I don't mind the 15 stacks of bleed." Also they often forget to factor that each shout has its own timer, where I'd venture to say most utility shouts average between 30-35 sec recharge. To me that's not extravagant and won't save you from many bombardments. Plus who in their right mind will blow their entire line and a couple of seconds time activating utilities out of turn to clear at the very most 5 condi?At best trooper/soldier has a nice number 6 perk, many people just take it for the extra vitality and toughness (barring WvW Durability runes-can't afford or have access to).

[Sovereign.1093]

o.o;; nu. i love my zerker shout guard. touch me not evil.

[subversiontwo.7501]

So, 11 paragraphs on further nerfing heals and cleanses... Am I playing a different game to the OP? In the WvW I am playing, the time to kill another player is at an all-time low and condition bombs are once again becomming prevalent, meaning that both power and condition damage seems to outperform both healing and cleanses by far. What then is the purpose of this thread?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Need less CC Immunity in generalWhy would we want more weight to CC? There is already so much CC that people have trouble even trying to engage into melee. Nevermind staying there. Or are you proposing that immunities should be removed so the amount of CC can be severely pulled back and simple counters able to keep up? In that case I would agree, but that is a rather important piece of the information that should have been underlined. If not, well these forums often astound me these days, it's not even a question of different perspectives anymore, it's different realities.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Need less CC Immunity in generalWhy would we want more weight to CC? There is already so much CC that people have trouble even trying to engage into melee. Nevermind staying there. Or are you proposing that immunities should be removed so the amount of CC can be severely pulled back and simple counters able to keep up? In that case I would agree, if not well, these forums often astound me these days.

No I believe CC Immunity should be exclusive to support roles. Right now everybody has it. Should be something that a few handle. If you in a group fight the support should handle countering CC

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Need less CC Immunity in generalWhy would we want more weight to CC? There is already so much CC that people have trouble even trying to engage into melee. Nevermind staying there. Or are you proposing that immunities should be removed so the amount of CC can be severely pulled back and simple counters able to keep up? In that case I would agree, if not well, these forums often astound me these days.

No I believe CC Immunity should be exclusive to support roles. Right now everybody has it. Should be something that a few handle. If you in a group fight the support should handle countering CCThat sounds incredibly detrimental to gameplay and boring. People without dedicated support should not get to press their buttons and play their characters? It's really one bad idea after another.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:OP, you mind linking this build you are speaking of that are using Trooper Runes? I am having trouble believing those runes would be broken in any build.

I do agree Monk Runes could be toned down. They never needed the additional 6-piece bonus.

Other rune that needs to be nerfed is Tormenting.

I can maintain 6th effect of monk rune 100% ._. Has a herald wich imo it’s fine addition it not op i think.

The better choice is reduce some queficients of the classes abusing that extra 10%???

For tormenting I would change the torment values and would made better health gain on targets with torment maybe would prefer lesser healing but remove the icd.

Marshal renegade mallyx would be a decent buil xd

[Strider Pj.2193]

@zaid.2308 said:

Like do you think the current powercreeping we have is good for the gamemode? seriously?

Of course the current power creep is unacceptable.

The topic on trooper is up again cause the support rune meta has changed with recent patch where anti-toxin is dead now. So people will go to the best thing available now that was somewhat close to what anti-toxin could if possible.

Ok... but why wasn’t this an issue before anti toxin rune became an issue about 6 months ago?

Trooper runes have actually been nerfed since being added. They haven’t received a buff that I am aware of. If they have, please provide the source.

I never said other classes shouldn't have a role, I just said there needs to be a balance.I actually encourage this recent patch cause it tried to shift the meta so FB and Scourge are less focus of the keyroles in a zerg but the changes to scourge had the opposite effect like i said and FB's nerfs won't effect it much if not at all.

Again, I can’t see where you have either provided evidence of trooper runes being:

• overpowered
• Buffed from the original iteration
• Part of the ‘power creep’ problem (unless you consider a 5 year old problem that you want back to Pre HoT days...)

[Sleepwalker.1398]

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Only shouts cleanse an extra condi compared to antitoxin that doubles cleanses.... It's not even close to comparable.. Don't give me this EU and na trash anyone with a brain can theory craft in this game since they made it so ezpz.

It may or may not have been you but i saw one of you VR warriors running with monk runes.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Could you be any more condescending? I mean, really? You could just be talking nonsense after all.

He is talking nonsense. First he said there is powercreep and then he asked for a nerf to support runes. And when he claimed that the Trooper runes could be the next antitoxin runes, I lol. Obviously he has no idea what the antitoxin runes could do before the nerf xD

Tested? For how long? 10 mins ? One hour? Or 10 weeks? Your testing results comparable to those players who actually used or played against professions using the runes for years and never before called for a nerf?

And his responses are so hostile too.Obviously a L2P issue.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Trooper runes? Is this 2014?

That would be a great time to WvW....

[LetoII.3782]

I do not miss yelling retreat every 27 seconds at all

[YTKafka.4681]

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Only shouts cleanse an extra condi compared to antitoxin that doubles cleanses.... It's not even close to comparable.. Don't give me this EU and na trash anyone with a brain can theory craft in this game since they made it so ezpz.

It may or may not have been you but i saw one of you VR warriors running with monk runes.

Most likely even if it WAS someone running a [VR] tag it wouldn't matter as [VR] hasn't had a raid in months.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

LET'S NERF HAMMER REV AGAIN! We need to make sure that nobody has any fun ever playing a ranged class ever again, and make double sure that that they're never Meta in WvW ever again.

No seriously I fail to understand how people look back on hammer train and go "ya I sure did like running face first into people in a big un-dieable clump of cancerous boons without having to risk myself at any point".

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@YTKafka.4681 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Only shouts cleanse an extra condi compared to antitoxin that doubles cleanses.... It's not even close to comparable.. Don't give me this EU and na trash anyone with a brain can theory craft in this game since they made it so ezpz.

It may or may not have been you but i saw one of you VR warriors running with monk runes.

Most likely even if it WAS someone running a [VR] tag it wouldn't matter as [VR] hasn't had a raid in months.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

LET'S NERF HAMMER REV AGAIN! We need to make sure that nobody has any fun ever playing a ranged class ever again, and make double sure that that they're never Meta in WvW ever again.

No seriously I fail to understand how people look back on hammer train and go "ya I sure did like running face first into people in a big un-dieable clump of cancerous boons without having to risk myself at any point".

It basically comes down to a few old core WvW players who played in the awfully boring leap in melee train and spam 1 with their warriors and guardians. They want that crap meta back, and it will never ever ever ever ever come back, and good riddance. They have to realize that the player base started it's actual decline before HoT even came out when that meta was in place.

What counters that horrific melee meta? Well Scourge shades are one (and what do we hear constant complaining about?), Hammer Revs another (again, what do we keep hearing about hammer damage?). Also what used to counter it before they got nerfed to death? Ele's and their meteor shower. If they ever decide to scale down retaliation to work in a small AoE range around the player (as it should have been since day one), we'd see a lot more dragon hunters with their traps countering the melee ball as well.

But don't ever touch our precious melee train they say... down with scourge shades, lower hammer damage, meteors are too strong, there is a power creep (when clearly there isn't because a full zerk player does next to no damage to a typical tanky WvW player). There is a common theme here going on; these OG wvw players are trying to claw back that ridiculous meta that kicked off the WvW decline in the first place.

[sephiroth.4217]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@YTKafka.4681 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Only shouts cleanse an extra condi compared to antitoxin that doubles cleanses.... It's not even close to comparable.. Don't give me this EU and na trash anyone with a brain can theory craft in this game since they made it so ezpz.

It may or may not have been you but i saw one of you VR warriors running with monk runes.

Most likely even if it WAS someone running a [VR] tag it wouldn't matter as [VR] hasn't had a raid in months.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

LET'S NERF HAMMER REV AGAIN! We need to make sure that nobody has any fun ever playing a ranged class ever again, and make double sure that that they're never Meta in WvW ever again.

No seriously I fail to understand how people look back on hammer train and go "ya I sure did like running face first into people in a big un-dieable clump of cancerous boons without having to risk myself at any point".

It basically comes down to a few old core WvW players who played in the awfully boring leap in melee train and spam 1 with their warriors and guardians. They want that kitten meta back, and it will never ever ever ever ever come back, and good riddance. They have to realize that the player base started it's actual decline before HoT even came out when that meta was in place.

What counters that horrific melee meta? Well Scourge shades are one (and what do we hear constant complaining about?), Hammer Revs another (again, what do we keep hearing about hammer damage?). Also what used to counter it before they got nerfed to death? Ele's and their meteor shower. If they ever decide to scale down retaliation to work in a small AoE range around the player (as it should have been since day one), we'd see a lot more dragon hunters with their traps countering the melee ball as well.

But don't ever touch our precious melee train they say... down with scourge shades, lower hammer damage, meteors are too strong, there is a power creep (when clearly there isn't because a full zerk player does next to no damage to a typical tanky WvW player). There is a common theme here going on; these OG wvw players are trying to claw back that ridiculous meta that kicked off the WvW decline in the first place.

what?powercreep includes defenses, not exclusive to offensive.

pretty sure WvW decline started because of the direction the game went unless you actually believe people are leaving from "good" choices?

ahwell, doesnt matter what I say or what you say because the population drop has already spoken.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@YTKafka.4681 said:

@Sleepwalker.1398 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@zaid.2308 said:@hunkamania.7561

Either you joking or know lol.Or the NA meta maybe just haven't tried it out yet afterall most of the times the broken stuff come from Eu WvW ;)

Only shouts cleanse an extra condi compared to antitoxin that doubles cleanses.... It's not even close to comparable.. Don't give me this EU and na trash anyone with a brain can theory craft in this game since they made it so ezpz.

It may or may not have been you but i saw one of you VR warriors running with monk runes.

Most likely even if it WAS someone running a [VR] tag it wouldn't matter as [VR] hasn't had a raid in months.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:No one has complained about Trooper runes for like 5 years. Scrapper, the class you're complaining about, can't use it. The only classes who might take it are tempest and guardian, and they lose a significant amount of outgoing healing to take Trooper runes.

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

LET'S NERF HAMMER REV AGAIN! We need to make sure that nobody has any fun ever playing a ranged class ever again, and make double sure that that they're never Meta in WvW ever again.

No seriously I fail to understand how people look back on hammer train and go "ya I sure did like running face first into people in a big un-dieable clump of cancerous boons without having to risk myself at any point".

It basically comes down to a few old core WvW players who played in the awfully boring leap in melee train and spam 1 with their warriors and guardians. They want that kitten meta back, and it will never ever ever ever ever come back, and good riddance. They have to realize that the player base started it's actual decline before HoT even came out when that meta was in place.

What counters that horrific melee meta? Well Scourge shades are one (and what do we hear constant complaining about?), Hammer Revs another (again, what do we keep hearing about hammer damage?). Also what used to counter it before they got nerfed to death? Ele's and their meteor shower. If they ever decide to scale down retaliation to work in a small AoE range around the player (as it should have been since day one), we'd see a lot more dragon hunters with their traps countering the melee ball as well.

But don't ever touch our precious melee train they say... down with scourge shades, lower hammer damage, meteors are too strong, there is a power creep (when clearly there isn't because a full zerk player does next to no damage to a typical tanky WvW player). There is a common theme here going on; these OG wvw players are trying to claw back that ridiculous meta that kicked off the WvW decline in the first place.

I sincerely do not believe that it has anything to do with nostalgia.

The whole thing is rather simple and will remain simple no matter how much misdirection is applied to convolute the facts. Ranged builds (and classes with predominantly ranged builds) have a strong place in a melee meta. Melee builds do not have a strong place in a ranged meta. With that, ranged metas are less inclusive and varied than melee metas. Similar statements can be made for the power and condi paradigm. There is a reason that power metas have been healthier for the game mode than condi metas: They are easier to balance and they are easier to balance with attention to scaling. That does not mean that power metas can not see imbalance. It has nothing to do with a nostalgia of power melee.

I like ranged classes and I like conditions but I know that they make for poor meta or overpresentation for various reasons.

These things are simple, have plenty of anecdotal evidence and are easy to prove and formulate arguments to support. That is the problem you and every other newbie (if we are to use that sorry rhetoric) have. When you make statements and flaunt oppinions like "Zerk players does next to no damage to a typical tanky WvW player" then those statements come without arguments and are not supported by examples that are already readily available out there.

Now, here's where we go up a level and things start getting important. These "few old core WvW players" that remain are old and experienced. With that, they know how the balance swings, they are the people who will be prefacing a turn towards conditions by releasing footage of how it is plenty powerful before the turn, not to dissuade Anet but to allude to a point. They will be among the most apt at exploiting the new imbalances that occur and will know how to best mitigate them as well. They're not all that concerned about how to get an edge as they are already ahead and have the necessary resources to adapt (the characters, the items). Nore are those players just roamers, closed tags or meta slaves; they tend to be represented at all scales and ahead of meta as part of being ahead in general.

They are more concerned with the balance, stability, variability and fun of whatever new metas that establish themselves. They are also often the players that create the content that the younger players join into. There is a severe shortage of younger commanders, groups and guilds with some kind of name- or brand recognition. If there wasn't, these things wouldn't be a problem, the old would be old and the new would interact with them, adapt and develop. That isn't the case though. Instead, the perspective of the ranged bag farmer is often that of someone who is completely reliant upon that tired old commander that has tagged up. That is the norm and why your perspective is problematic beyond the fact that it is rude, misinformed and unsupported by both available references (eg., comparing traits) and anecdotal evidence (eg., videos).

The same goes for whatever claim that the vanilla meta kicked off some decline, what decline? The decline that I have seen, the stuff that makes guilds and commanders leave the mode, is the exclusive ranged metas. The metas that gravitate to fewer classes. In fact, there never was a "Guardian and Warrior" meta in vanilla. If you paid attention to the likes of Red Guard you will see more a variety of classes and roles in their videos than organisers drive players towards now. The reason there is some sort of nostalgia for the balance of the late vanilla era is because the normative composition used to be about 40% melee, 40% ranged and 20% focus. A general distribution that is regarded the most fair, balanced and inclusive throughout the history of the mode (represented by the 2-2-1 party spread of the 25-man guild norms at the time). Yet, that isn't nostalgia for nostalgia's sake - it is nostalgia for what arguably was the best and broadest balance that the mode has had. People talk about it because it was proven good.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Doublepost

[RedShark.9548]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:Doublepost

This guy gets it, and ill bump his answer for more ppl to see it. Even if it a doublepost

[Sovereign.1093]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAEZlRw0YYMJmJe0SavdA-zVJYjRFfZkZFkeKo600hNLA-w

decent but not really optimal. effective if you have another healer, which you shouldn't really need unless you have a monks scrapper.

also many other runes are probably better.

but for damage it is good

cele tempest x pvt zerk shout war x pvt zerk pov fb pvt zerk reaper.

---

i myself use it for my pvt zerk fb.

if you see me doing 15k damage on you on gs spin, you can be sure i'm using this as my back up safety vitality rune.

is it op? no. :/ is it optimal? no. its just a great rune, the trooper. weakness is it forces you to focus on shout related builds.

how about monks? well only if your opponents are bad.

not much to say about really. i can get my team full hp in less than 2 seconds by simply team blasting waters. its good to have guard roll and 100% mi revive.

what runes people should try if they got healing? or vit?

dwayna. 20% increase on regen effectiveness. it is a selfish choice but allows for.a.bit of healing too.

a balance between full support and self sustain can be a niche players havent tested.

[Justine.6351]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

Yeah its like staff ele, a glass cannon damage stick. And yet people complain when they take big threatening damage. The first thing they do after dying is go into the combat log and find the biggest number they can which is going to be CoR because lol its a slow hard hitting glass cannon skill...And naturally its a CoR strike when they were in downed state, below 50% hp and with 10 stacks of vulnerability. Then they claim they died to 15k CoR when in reality they died to a pile of shades and marks and then were cleaved out by a rev. The only reason I play Hammer Rev with STRM is because we don't have a good thief or ranger to address all the little shits that try picking off our stragglers. Yes, that is the secret power of Hammer Rev and its annoying every time someone complains about getting ganked while trying to zerg but cries "nerf hammer rev". Hammer Rev shits on enemy glass cannons and gankers.

For anyone saying "nerf hammer rev",If you are a zergling that is sick of getting ganked by glass ganker classes, stop asking anet to nerf hammer rev and start asking your hammer revs to learn how to use shiro and staff. Every time anet nerfs hammer rev you are only buffing those gankers by removing a counter. " Anti-ganker" is not a zerg role so good luck finding a replacement for hammer revs when they finally ask "why am I playing a build that is super vulnerable and deals garbage damage?". And if you don't think a build can fall out of the meta, ask staff ele and chronomancers where they all went.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Justine.6351 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

And what do you want to do to hammer rev? Make it completely worthless? It's already completely unused in both PvP and PvE and just got another nerf. Eventually it's just going to be a worse longbow. I don't play hammer but good lord, without its damage what does it actually have? It's slow, clunky, and if the enemy pushes into you, you have absolutely 0 ability to trade blows with them.

Yeah its like staff ele, a glass cannon damage stick. And yet people complain when they take big threatening damage. The first thing they do after dying is go into the combat log and find the biggest number they can which is going to be CoR because lol its a slow hard hitting glass cannon skill...And naturally its a CoR strike when they were in downed state, below 50% hp and with 10 stacks of vulnerability. Then they claim they died to 15k CoR when in reality they died to a pile of shades and marks and then were cleaved out by a rev. The only reason I play Hammer Rev with STRM is because we don't have a good thief or ranger to address all the little kitten that try picking off our stragglers. Yes, that is the secret power of Hammer Rev and its annoying every time someone complains about getting ganked while trying to zerg but cries "nerf hammer rev". Hammer Rev kitten on enemy glass cannons and gankers.

For anyone saying "nerf hammer rev",If you are a zergling that is sick of getting ganked by glass ganker classes, stop asking anet to nerf hammer rev and start asking your hammer revs to learn how to use shiro and staff. Every time anet nerfs hammer rev you are only buffing those gankers by removing a counter. " Anti-ganker" is not a zerg role so good luck finding a replacement for hammer revs when they finally ask "why am I playing a build that is super vulnerable and deals garbage damage?". And if you don't think a build can fall out of the meta, ask staff ele and chronomancers where they all went.I think you are making some good points about player behaviour in general, when it comes to all kinds of damage, but you are missing the mark on CoR.

The issue with hammer Rev is not just that it has slow ranged attacks that inherently amounts to burst, the issue is rather that it has design and mechanics that are anomalies in the context of how they are to be used. When the servers are under pressure both CoR and PS often end up in situations where they don't animate before the damage is applied, so all that burst comes with no telegraph. I'm not talking about clutter but rather that the lag makes the damage not correlate to the tells. That is problematic with a skill like CoR that is bound to see so much use. It is ranged, it is slow, it is hard hitting but it also used to hit harder the further away you were and it had a very short cooldown. Other abilities of similar mechanics tend to have more telegraph and reaction time, while also either having much longer cooldowns or much shorter application range (that also adds to awareness for the target(s)).

So the damage does not have to be problematic, but the damage in conjunction with the telegraphing and prevalence (scalability, cooldown) has always been a problem, since it came out. The context is what has underlined the problem at different times. The current context made Anet act on it.

That has always been the general issue with Rev, that they break quite alot of the older (yet still there) design conventions and base mechanics. Not many people think about those things today and they are often regarded as minor- or underlying details in the greater scheme of things but there are underlying reasons as to why eg., the Elementalist was given lower AR, lower HP and higher CD. The reasons have just aged poorly with alot of the new classes or specs.

Nerfing CoR is no different than the nerfs that came to Ice spike, only Ice spike had better telegraph and more of a reaction time. The same goes for things like Meteor shower, they share some of the problems (animations being delayed or cluttered out) but they also have much more built in mitigation (ie., players dying to meteors are often unlucky getting hit by multiple randomizations whereas equally many times you only get hit once and then get out of the often highly visible zone). For similar reasons CoR and PS are more problematic than the auto and DtH with built-in mitigation of projectile mechanics and combinations of double telegraphing and delay. Those things work okay for CoR and PS in smaller settings but become problems as you scale things up.

Ed. a quick note on the comment on meta as well: Things can certainly be nerfed out of existance (I'm looking at you Druid) but that is not necesssarily the case of Chrono or Ele. People who attempt to organize whole rather anonymous servers may keep them out of what they regard as meta - the easiest stuff to streamline and funnel anonymous players into. However, they still have roles even if they've been a bit diminished. What people regard as "meta" is much less important than whether they have credible roles or not. If you're not appreciated as an Ele or Mesmer at the moment, you have likely ended up in an uptight midtier where people who are better will see more potential in the classes and people who are more relaxed will see them more as sidegrades. So that is more an issue of player dissonance than it is balance of classes and not something they should balance around. Looking at broad player behaviour has its uses when it comes to data and development but it is often a poor approach when it comes to class balance.

[zaid.2308]

Sounds like most of you like how scourges and fbs perform in WvW atm and dont want them nerfed lmao. The current zergplay balance is literally being balanced around how much support a fb can output and how much dps/corrupts a scourge can output (If you are playing condi scourge dont even say anything tbh, I can't believe some necros are still living in the HoT era. WvW Balance should not be done around just 2 class roles, if balance is done around just 2 classes it talks for itself how big of a problem WvW zerg balance has atm. I dont want to talk about gank/roam balance cause the mode isn't made for those 2 playstyle, I play other playstyles than zerging but let's focus on WvW zerg balance yeah, cause that's what the modes main playstyle is, zergplay.What gamemode are you playing exactly?And for the rev+ele dps discussion how can you even compare the 2. Both are very different mechanically and cd-wise. Rev can output constant high burst (hammer 2+3, both low cds. Hammer 2 can still do dmg it's just bugged currently on certain terrain so it doesn't hit anything 75% of the times when terrain isn't flat. As for eles their highest burst is only meteor which has a big cd.