Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

[Monkey See.1498]

I find a dodge roll on weapon swap inherently less offensive than I do Sigil of Agility being used to cheese out casts that when you take latency into account are faster than most people can literally react to.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Fueki.4753 said:Stealth and teleporting/shadow-stepping needs to be nerfed hard.Stealth could easily be nerfed by replacing it with some kind of shadow or smoke form that retains all benefits from stealth (and its traits), except it's still visible and can be targetted.teleport/shadow-stepping is harder to nerf though. It's either reduce the range into uselessness or increase the CD to multiple minutes.They also need to change shadow steps that they require available paths.

(This is obviously a thief hate -post.)

Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Cal Cohen.2358" "

Oh and please revert the ranger gs auto evade and crippling throw removal

Druid has been literally unusable in PvP and kept getting nerfed and the last set of gs nerfs made the weapon set trash tier, completely useless, and deleted the skill ceiling entirely. Whoever thought it was a good idea to butcher one of the most fun/balanced weapon sets rangers had access to made a WHOLE bunch of rangers very, very sad.

Oh yeah and the nerf to ranger shouts turning them into commands makes literally ZERO sense as well...

Like... why??

[Fueki.4753]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?While technically it's a Meditation and only one, it should be shaved it bit when Thieves get theirs shaved.Leap of Faith is fine though, as it has obvious weakness, like being vulnerable during it or a highly telegraphed landing (which Shadow Steps don't have).

[blarghhrrkblah.3412]

@"Fueki.4753" said:Stealth could easily be nerfed by replacing it with some kind of shadow or smoke form that retains all benefits from stealth (and its traits), except it's still visible and can be targetted.

the entire point of stealth is to obscure your movement and action...what's the point if they can see you while you're in it? better way to fix it imo are to cause it to break on initial cast of any attack action (regardless of hit or miss). and probably also remove the deadeye elite clearing revealed. that is actually legitimately annoying and probably the most unhealthy part of the kit.

teleport/shadow-stepping is harder to nerf though. It's either reduce the range into uselessness or increase the CD to multiple minutes.They also need to change shadow steps that they require available paths.

I guarantee you if you play any class with a teleport you will be spammed so much by "no valid path to target" that you will take this statement back.

I also want to add another comment on people who want to "nerf/remove" stealth/teleports/etc from the game. You're essentially asking for a game of just warriors. This would be very balanced, yes, but it would be so incredibly boring and unhealthy. I feel like you really need to reevaluate what you think is a good change for the game.

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Lol @shadowpass.4236 havent seen you any higher than low plat too after a significant amount of games (not just lucky placements), if you want to take rank as indicator for gameknowledge you are not the first i would ask either. So to say, i haven't seen a single Condimirage in Plat3/ Legend or in At tryhard teams using Signet of Illusions until now.

https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS

I started playing a lot less after this season. Last season I played a bunch of matches on EU cause I was recording core mantra mesmer games but I'd say the past 6 or so seasons I haven't played enough to show up on the leaderboards.

Anyone who has played scrims/tournies/ATs/is high rated on NA knows who I am so it doesn't really matter what you say.

If I wanted to this season I could go plat 3 on condi mirage but I just don't feel like playing this game anymore. The last MAT on NA double condi mirage won against Team USA so that's a pretty good indicator of how strong it still is.

Also, there are a LOT of good players that no longer play the game/don't play enough to qualify for the leaderboards. Look at Zeromis for example. He barely plays but he'd dumpster 99.9% of the population even with very little practice.

Aight it is the first i see where you post something higher than low Plat 2. Long ago though. Anyway i only mentioned that because you tried to devalue posts by mention lb-ranking and for someone not rly high ranked since a longer time already himself that is a bit of hypocrite no? Also as you then posted yourself, the build Condimesmers use doesn't run Signet of Illusion, means counting double Invuln and double Mirrors into a build that also has stealth and condi remove is simply wrong. Either the Condimirage doesn't have stealth then (because no Singet of Midnight) or no Condiremove aside from Jaunt.I am not here to defend Condimirage in its current state (ppl like to misinterpret me, i made plenty of rework/ nerf suggestions for several Mesmerbuilds myself), i am just for staying with facts and logic and don't exaggerate.

[Arheundel.6451]

@blarghhrrkblah.3412 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Stealth could easily be nerfed by replacing it with some kind of shadow or smoke form that retains all benefits from stealth (and its traits), except it's still visible and can be targetted.

the entire point of stealth is to obscure your movement and action...what's the point if they can see you while you're in it? better way to fix it imo are to cause it to break on initial cast of any attack action (regardless of hit or miss). and probably also remove the deadeye elite clearing revealed. that is actually legitimately annoying and probably the most unhealthy part of the kit.

teleport/shadow-stepping is harder to nerf though. It's either reduce the range into uselessness or increase the CD to multiple minutes.They also need to change shadow steps that they require available paths.

I guarantee you if you play any class with a teleport you will be spammed so much by "no valid path to target" that you will take this statement back.

I also want to add another comment on people who want to "nerf/remove" stealth/teleports/etc from the game. You're essentially asking for a game of just warriors. This would be very balanced, yes, but it would be so incredibly boring and unhealthy. I feel like you really need to reevaluate what you think is a good change for the game.

You accidentally declared the truth about stealth balance in GW2 and it's even more tasty coming it from a thief main, to the idea of removing stealth from the game you reply with : You're essentially asking for a game of just warriors...there and there is reason why stealth is considered a noob gimmick , you're esssentially declaring that without stealth...you cannot play a burst role/class so may as well just go warrior and what you really mean is that stealth allows you to recover for any kind of mistake in your execution.

Stealth in itself it's not a new concept to MMO but if not carefully implemented it will lead any game down the closing gate, in GW2 stealth has been very poorly implemented, it removes the concept of risk from burst specs and it's the driving force behind meta shaping.

[Fueki.4753]

@blarghhrrkblah.3412 said:the entire point of stealth is to obscure your movement and action...what's the point if they can see you while you're in it?The entire point of stealth currently is to hide yourself from the other player, fishing for stealth attacks that have no counterplay (and no, pure luck in finding and revealing the invisible enemy or hacks to see see through stealth do not count as counterplay).This means, the entire point of Stealth is to remove the second P from PvP.If you kill the other one it's your win. If you don't, you just runaway and try again.There is no meaning in having a mechanic without counterplay.

[Pengu.7481]

imho the proposed nerfs to holo have somewhat missed the mark when looking at stab nerfs to elixir U. heat therapy nerf is good but needs a bit more shaving.if the propsed nerfs come through to patch day all u will see is protection holo bunkering points like barrier scrapper. have fun with that.

remove regen from healing turret, heat therapy 50% nerf. reduce vigor uptime (atm its perma) no wonder holo's never overheat. and reduce quickness and stab uptime on elixir u but not to the point that core engi or scrapper gets canned in the process. some cd nerfs to holo 2 would work wonders too since it wont be readyable to use for waterfield finisher as much.

if half the nerfs to holo that ppl are suggesting (10 sec on forge cd) toss elixir S to 2 sec . stuff like that ontop of the current already proposed nerfs u might aswell delete holo. i get that its overperforming. but not by that much. seems to me ppl arent happy b4 its burried 6 feet under

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Fueki.4753 said:The entire point of stealth currently is to hide yourself from the other player, fishing for stealth attacks that have no counterplay (and no, pure luck in finding and revealing the invisible enemy or hacks to see see through stealth do not count as counterplay).

You cannot argue soundly while discounting the argument that would challenge yours as not counting. Those things count (at least the fair ones.)There are quite a few avenues on classes to gain access to revealed. Some of those classes also put a cc on the revealed individual on skill hit, or reveal the individual while they are cced.In addition to that, stealthed characters do not cease to exist while they are stealthed, which makes marking the ground or laying AOEs or traps at your feet good to dissuade them. You can also often judge when stealthed characters will attack you based on how their HP looked when they stealthed or what weapons they are carrying, and block preemptively to stall them.

As long as you cannot be immediately oneshot from stealth or have a visual indication that the burst is coming at least a half-second before it hits you, it's workable.

Tl'dr play a stealth character, think like them, have object permanence.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Also, for whoever needs it, I would like to remind that this is a thing.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

Firebrands and Weavers are strong, yes, but:

In particular we’re looking at:

• Condi Thief
• Holosmith
• Condi Mirage
• Rampage
• Warrior’s Cunning
• Revisiting Staff Thief

These are going to be the things that are hit first. If there's anything in particular about these facets that need additional suggestions, please note them. We can talk about Firebrand and Weaver, Herald, stealth mechanics, burn guard or whatever hasn't been hit another time. Make sure these things above aren't running to egregious levels of overperformance when that balance drops.

Also keep in mind there will be a fall damage change coming as well, and necro has been affected significantly by it. If you main necro you may want to voice your opinion on that in Profressions, but keep in mind necros are a different beast in WvW and scale really strong because of zerg deaths.

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:Necromancer

• Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
• Signet of Undeath: Reduced recharge to 75 seconds in all game modes. Reduced cast time from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Reduced number of allies revived from 3 to 1. Added additional health cost of 50% of base health to this skill. Increased passive lifeforce gain by 100%.

Again, not sure who needs to hear this, but this balance patch is not going to fix everything at once. Focus on the above facets and think about how those facet changes will affect your gameplay on your classes of choice. If you perform well on a certain class vs most things noted above without using anything on that list, and yet the issues above are part of your matchup so frequently that you feel your class needs a buff to compete, consider that the balance patch may be passively buffing you. If your class has been hit and you feel it is too much of a hit, consider how being on the receiving end of whatever is being nerfed feels combat wise before suggesting what you feel it should be adjusted to.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"aelska.4609" said:Also consider removing sigil of energy. Some classes are transformed into dodgemachines, there is no reason for a sigil to be that impactful on the game... especially when paired with dodge traits.

This is a total mistake i just way to say there are only 4 professions that have extremely high evasion timeMesmer with mirage equippedDaredevilWarriorand to lesser extents Ele and Ranger

All of these have access to vigor or some additional or other form of endurance restoration and in that lies your issue. Ideally you will see about 1 less dodge per build that uses this sigil if its removed overall thats not saying much for the listed professions above.

So what you really mean to say is lower vigor uptime and reduce endurance restoration skill/traits

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@aelska.4609 said:Also consider removing sigil of energy. Some classes are transformed into dodgemachines, there is no reason for a sigil to be that impactful on the game... especially when paired with dodge traits.

Hard pass. a quarter of an endurance bar every nine seconds isn't turning classes into dodgemachines. All this suggestion will do is hurt the classes that dont have easy access to vigor or endurance regen and allow them to be bullied even more by the classes who do.

Your suggested change will skew the meta even more than it already is toward the classes that are already doing too much. Keep closely in mind that the classes that have easy access to vigor or endurance regen in this meta -also- can CC lock you or punish you for being in range of them. Leave that alone.

[SeikeNz.3526]

if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Lol @shadowpass.4236 havent seen you any higher than low plat too after a significant amount of games (not just lucky placements), if you want to take rank as indicator for gameknowledge you are not the first i would ask either. So to say, i haven't seen a single Condimirage in Plat3/ Legend or in At tryhard teams using Signet of Illusions until now.

https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS

I started playing a lot less after this season. Last season I played a bunch of matches on EU cause I was recording core mantra mesmer games but I'd say the past 6 or so seasons I haven't played enough to show up on the leaderboards.

Anyone who has played scrims/tournies/ATs/is high rated on NA knows who I am so it doesn't really matter what you say.

If I wanted to this season I could go plat 3 on condi mirage but I just don't feel like playing this game anymore. The last MAT on NA double condi mirage won against Team USA so that's a pretty good indicator of how strong it still is.

Also, there are a LOT of good players that no longer play the game/don't play enough to qualify for the leaderboards. Look at Zeromis for example. He barely plays but he'd dumpster 99.9% of the population even with very little practice.

Aight it is the first i see where you post something higher than low Plat 2. Long ago though. Anyway i only mentioned that because you tried to devalue posts by mention lb-ranking and for someone not rly high ranked since a longer time already himself that is a bit of hypocrite no? Also as you then posted yourself, the build Condimesmers use doesn't run Signet of Illusion, means counting double Invuln and double Mirrors into a build that also has stealth and condi remove is simply wrong. Either the Condimirage doesn't have stealth then (because no Singet of Midnight) or no Condiremove aside from Jaunt.I am not here to defend Condimirage in its current state (ppl like to misinterpret me, i made plenty of rework/ nerf suggestions for several Mesmerbuilds myself), i am just for staying with facts and logic and don't exaggerate.

I mean I hit top 60 on EU too last season with 6x my normal ping on a glass cannon core mesmer build I had relatively little experience on in 1 week of quing.

I didn't finish there because of a bad loss streak right before season ended but yeah... I mean I can play multiple classes and place highly.

I just don't play this game much/at all anymore man, idk what to tell you.

The normal build just runs arcane thievery instead of signet of illusions and maybe cleansing sigils which make up for the condi remove.

[ZDragon.3046]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

[SeikeNz.3526]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

[Ghos.1326]

Why are we comparing damage over time to direct damage? This is confusing me. 10+ stacks of it too.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?While technically it's a Meditation and only one, it should be shaved it bit when Thieves get theirs shaved.Leap of Faith is fine though, as it has obvious weakness, like being vulnerable during it or a highly telegraphed landing (which Shadow Steps don't have).

And merciful intervention.

And Sword 2.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

I dont want to see added power damage onto scepter, I view it as condi weapon, what devs could do is, make the last tick add 3 stacks of confusion and bonus, or if you get at least 5 stacks get extra Y stacks, or if you land all ticks, apply 3 stacks of torment, instead of making it simply deal more damage, give it counterplay.If you dodge half of the rapid fire you are still screwed, instead of 15k you take, 7-8.I dont like how mesmer is handled in general RN, straight nerfs do nobody good, give better counterplay.Why nerf scepter 2 if you can increase its cooldown, and make it refund it when you land the hit?example, sc2 has 15s cd, if you dont land the hit it goes on 15s cd, if you land the hit it goes on 6s.

TLDR, dont nerf/buff numbers add counterplay to abilities.

[ZDragon.3046]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

[SeikeNz.3526]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

2. Shatters 1-3 because they all do stupid amounts of damage
   or
   cc youStopped reading when you said shatter 1-3 deal stupid ammount of damage, then again 200 damage can be considered stupid, right?

That's a surprising argument to cherry pick for, especially when you are accusing shadow of taking things out of context and claiming that, because of that allegation, people should ignore him. I would advise against throwing stones in glass houses, but you do you though. Up to this point Shadow has been regular in providing at the very least full context screenshots and at the most videos when he says something is busted, so usually researching and testing his claims are very easy. Not that I think he's correct every time he makes a claim but at least he documents what he's talking about.

I'm not on board with magic bullet nerfs because I haven't objectively considered them yet, but there is very clearly an or there to create a distinction between whether a shatter does damage or CC. His argument is obviously saying that, given all the other things being thrown at you that can do significant damage over a Mesmer's normal rotation, Magic bullet situationally does too much.

Whether or not that is the case is up for debate, but it won't be being touched this iteration anyway.

[ZDragon.3046]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

[Fueki.4753]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?While technically it's a Meditation and only one, it should be shaved it bit when Thieves get theirs shaved.Leap of Faith is fine though, as it has obvious weakness, like being vulnerable during it or a highly telegraphed landing (which Shadow Steps don't have).And merciful intervention.And Sword 2.All of which require a target to teleport, unlike some of the Thief Shadow Steps.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:There are quite a few avenues on classes to gain access to revealed. Some of those classes also put a cc on the revealed individual on skill hit, or reveal the individual while they are cced.Actually Revealed is few and rare in between (five skills not requiring a target, two traits) with only Dragon Hunter having two skills applying it: one being a trap and the other one being Spear of Justice, which really only would be a pot shot into randomly chosen directions, requiring enormous luck to hit the enemy with.On top of that, most AoE revealing skills have pitiful range and therefore rarely ever hit Thieves.I'm not sure if any Engineers even run Utility Goggles for that 1200 ranged Reveal (which requires a target).

In addition to that, stealthed characters do not cease to exist while they are stealthed, which makes marking the ground or laying AOEs or traps at your feet good to dissuade them.And if the Thief pays attention watching you, they know where you placed AoEs and walk around them, or they trigger them and quickly disengage to heal after clearing the AoE.You can also often judge when stealthed characters will attack you based on how their HP looked when they stealthedSeeing how fast Thieves can heal up, their remaining health is no valuable indicator.block preemptively to stall them.Preemptively blocking means you are hoping to get lucky to block the attack.

I don't see any counterplay that requires player skill.All the "counterplay" consists of:1) getting lucky with a block or Aegis and killing the Thief before they run away.2) getting lucky with a small AoE Reveal and killing the Thief before they run away.3) getting lucky due to the Thief not paying attention and triggering some Mark or Trap and killing the Thief before they run away.