Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

[Ghos.1326]

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Really don't like the rampage changes. Over 99% power scaling reduction on these skills is way overkill. While I can agree with rampage's combination of cc and damage being oppressive, these are skills that feel like they should hit hard and at .01 power scaling they will be pretty much the lowest damage skills in the game. Go for about 30% damage reduction on these skills instead, being hit by a giant flying Boulder should hurt, being kicked or body slammed by a brute in a steroid induced frenzy should hurt, just not so much that rampage is a "win" button.

I don't agree here. Hard CC skills shouldn't also be able to hit hard, that's just not very fair in terms of balance. It's like saying Holographic Shockwave should be able to at least hit for 5k, on top of its AoE CC. Again, I don't agree at all.

[Ghos.1326]

@darksome.1697 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

Holosmith

Holosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

• Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
• Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

Rampage

Rampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

• Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
  • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

I'm sorry, but are you really still working at eradicating engineers from PvP? Elixir U is the only usable stability there is for a drunken scrapper (which actually lets you still use skills while it's up), which you forced engineers into with the reduction to paper thin nothings two balance patches ago. Rampage is the ONLY mildly usable elite that a drunken scrapper has, and on top of that it is triggered randomly and therefor completely unreliable - you usually get twister mode which is as useful as a paper bag. And that's supposed to be an elite. Rampage isn't a "win button" either, you're not invulnerable while rampaging, and most classes know how to counter it. It's super easy to counter it even. So bringing that elite... "Elite" randomly triggered skill to 0.01 is just... dumb. And Holosmiths, I used to play one before being forced into drunken scrapper. Sure the class can be annoying, but they're no brutes either these days, not like they were two balance patches ago - and even then, if you know what you're doing, they're not hard to counter either, just annoying. I just can't believe you're going after engineers again. Again. Good grief.

They're going after everything, just these for now stand out. Read the beginning of Cal's post before going into the balance changes. More is to come, but all in all these are actually excellent changes.

[Ghos.1326]

@"Levetty.1279" said:So you are going to destroy Mirage like you did Chrono? I don't know why are going out of your way to try and make so many classes unfun to play rather then actually trying to balance things but you are just driving people away from the game.

No this isn't whine about "op classes" being nerfed, this is a PvE player asking you to stop ruining PvE for no reason.

"In PvP only" do tell me how this ruins PvE.

[Ghos.1326]

@zoopop.5630 said:great changes!!!!! thank you for actually putting in work @Cal Cohen.3527

I agree. Though this is just the beginning, it's a good start. Now to see how they handle the other things after this, so far it's looking up.

[witcher.3197]

Gotta agree with the people saying mesmer doesn't need a condition nerf, but an Infinite Horizon nerf.

How about an ICD? 5-7 seconds. This lets mirage do burst damage, but if you dodge or cleanse it you'll be safe for x amount of time. Currently the problem is the nonstop burst damage produced by this trait.

An ICD would introduce some conterplay to it, making it more rewarding to land and less annoying to fight against.

[shadowpass.4236]

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

Can you stop post biased troll post from someone who clearly have no clue about damage/CD efficiency please ?Show gear/trait in your vids please and even with that, if you don't proc multiplier you know that your prove is biased, I mean lol a 3k maul and war hundred blade with no might stack.I'm ok if you want to make again a mesmer long discussion here you can, but get ready to discuss a long time because the damage you want to nerf on your initial post isn't op in regards to CD/animation/trait investment/type of attacks in the current meta.

So you'd like me to stack some damage modifiers before I use the hard hitting skills on warrior and ranger? lol

The mes was on wanderers and the ranger and war were both on demolishers (ya know, the meta). I'll make a few more vids later if I remember.

[Ghos.1326]

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at PvP.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

• Condi Thief
• Holosmith
• Condi Mirage
• Rampage
• Warrior’s Cunning
• Revisiting Staff Thief

General

• Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

This came up again as we were looking at holosmith quickness but is something we’ve been considering for a long time. Quickness in general is something that we’re looking at for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that this sigil is too easily accessible for the power it provides.

Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

• Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
• Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

• Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
• Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

• Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
• Phantasmal Warlock:
  • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
  • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
• Chaos Vortex:
  • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
  • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
  • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

• Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
  • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
  • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

Warrior’s CunningWe’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

• Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

Staff ThiefAs mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

• Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
• Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
• Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

Hey Cal,Thanks for the update. I like these changes generally. For Elixir U, I have a suggestion to consider.

For Elixir U, since you're also thinking of targeting the quickness uptime for it, why not go a "half and half" route? Put Stability duration to 2-3 seconds, and lower quickness duration to about 3-4 seconds. This would then help other specs like Scrapper and core Engineer be able to keep a decent uptime of both stab and quickness, but nothing overbearing.

I know this is just the beginning, but I must say so far so good.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

Like seriously? Here let me just throw on all of the damage modifiers for ranger and warrior and take off my amulet for mesmer so you can see how much weaker mesmer is! /s

The amount of reaching mesmer mains have to do to defend their class is absolutely ridiculous.

[Ghos.1326]

@witcher.3197 said:Gotta agree with the people saying mesmer doesn't need a condition nerf, but an Infinite Horizon nerf.

How about an ICD? 5-7 seconds. This lets mirage do burst damage, but if you dodge or cleanse it you'll be safe for x amount of time. Currently the problem is the nonstop burst damage produced by this trait.

An ICD would introduce some conterplay to it, making it more rewarding to land and less annoying to fight against.

Interesting suggested change. My suggested change was to immediately destroy clones after IH procced, causing the mesmer to have to generate more clones if they want to procc it again.

[Ghos.1326]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

Because now condimirage use sword :D.18 stacks of bleeding on a skill with a CD and a 2 time animation (phantasm cast + phantasm attack) is more than fine btw.

1 button = 18 bleeds

No it's really not fine but you can keep lying to yourself. :D

I'm not even going to say "just dodge"I'm not even going to say "use block/reflectI'm not even going to say "use invuln"I'm not even going to say "press your strafe key while next to a pillar"

I'm going to say there is more than sufficient counter play to this ability, so if you eat 18 stacks of bleeding, you misplayed. Let's not pretend that Condi Mirage has any other meaningful burst attack, especially with existing/proposed staff changes.

I mean, if you played properly you could do some mean bursts with power mesmer. it's been done, it's still being done, and it will still continue to be done. So you trying to "just dodge 4Head" someone because you have to rely on putting 18 stacks of bleed on opponents consistently doesn't tell anything, other than you don't want to see the proper nerfs for mesmer. I mean the same principle can be applied to you: if you can't properly burst with GS power mesmer then you just need to "git gud 4Head"

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh546350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

[Kondor.2904]

I don't understand, why instead of looking at the traits that cause problems with mirage, you're nerfing weapons ? Nerfing weapons will only encourge people to spec into tanky boon-bot spamming ambushes, and this will also eliminate even more builds, since half the traitlines are garbage and do not offer much utility/damage. I truly don't understand. All you're going to accomplish is having a sidenode spamming condi mirage that can only remain alive and annoying, without any real issue solved. By the way, can you just revert scepter to what it used to be, instead of gutting the weapon that hasn't been used for years just because you lack competency to realize that all the main problems are caused by IH, DE and boon creep synergy.

This exact balance treatment led to the current cancer state that condi mirage has shifted to.

[Ghos.1326]

@"White Shorts.3756" said:I want arenanet to handle mesmer correctly. Mesmer has recieved MANY nerfs since the release of Mirage and the main problem is the trait Infinite Horizon, I think if infinite horizon (and the other horrendous grandmaster traits) are reworked COMPLETELY the class will be much weaker. I think nerfing the condition application to ambush skills is a mistake and the action should be removing infinite horizon. The other answer is a clause where clones created with deceptive evasion do not trigger infinite horizon first. So the reality is if a mesmer dodges and creates a clone, that clone CANNOT be killed and does an ambush attack ON CREATION. If you remove that condition mesmer wont need nearly as many nerfs to damage application. however the result would be 3 totally useless grandmaster traits. I am also a big fan of removing the exhaustion/stunbreak out of Elusive Mind and add 2 conditions cleansed on dodge. This is healthy for mesmer because it really lacks condition cleanse. Illusions traitline and inspirations need buffs/reworks because of all the nerfs caused by Infinite Horizon. The trait NEEDS to be deleted but they have to compensate by giving back to mesmer what they took. I think condi SHATTER mesmer should be returned to the game and the overall evades reduced. No IH would mean no deceptive evasion. But condition mirage lost TOO much condition application on shatter. Mirage is a great class with a couple adjustments that are needed. But the current problem is due to ALL the nerfs to ALL the aspects of mesmer the class relys completely on Infinite Horizon for viability. I have many other changes and wishes for the health/balance of the game in the future.

I tend to agree here. I also think there are a few other things that need looked at but for the most part, I agree.One of my suggestions, was to have Infinite Horizon destroy the clones IMMEDIATELY after its procc. So, the clones would evade skills, and use their ambush skill, and then poof disappear, causing the mesmer to have to generate more clones if they want to make use of the infinite horizon trait again. This would not only cut the significant bursts down to 1 or 2 (number 2 being significantly weaker because possibly only 1 clone generated since then), but still allowing the mesmer to offer good pressure onto opponents if they run a dueling build.

I think Sharper images might need looked at. 100% chance to bleed on crit, coupled with 8x attacks from illusionary duelists (I think it should be 3 to match the mesmer's actual attack) is a bit much, But with lower clone generation in total, it might actually be fine where it's at currently. So depending on how this clone generation fix plays out, no changes may need to be done on those ends.

That's pretty much it though, IMO. a few simple changes, nothing TOO big, nothing too small, that i think will put the mesmer in a proper place.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.keep whining mate, keep whining.

[Spartan Phoenix.9053]

Mmm. I use that quickness for ele dagger combo.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

About phantasmal warlock, it was one of the hardest hitting phantasms till phantasm rework.When phantasm rework shipped it was turned into a only good for clone generation phantasm.With this change it will be good for nothing trash phantasm.

[Yannir.4132]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

That seems a bit suspect. You can AA a Light Golem to death in 8 seconds on Spellbreaker Dagger or Sword(takes around 0.5 seconds longer). Standard Strength build.

[Ghos.1326]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.keep whining mate, keep whining.

I'll end it all and say they both need nerfed. end of the story. And so far, it's looking like that will be a thing: both getting nerfed.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.keep whining mate, keep whining.

If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!

I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.

LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:

[Spartan Phoenix.9053]

Cant trust in that combo without quickness, it will become useless.

[viquing.8254]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

Can you stop post biased troll post from someone who clearly have no clue about damage/CD efficiency please ?Show gear/trait in your vids please and even with that, if you don't proc multiplier you know that your prove is biased, I mean lol a 3k maul and war hundred blade with no might stack.I'm ok if you want to make again a mesmer long discussion here you can, but get ready to discuss a long time because the damage you want to nerf on your initial post isn't op in regards to CD/animation/trait investment/type of attacks in the current meta.

So you'd like me to stack some damage modifiers before I use the hard hitting skills on warrior and ranger? lol

The mes was on wanderers and the ranger and war were both on demolishers (ya know, the meta). I'll make a few more vids later if I remember.

Yes because contrary to mesmer, ranger and warrior output much of their damage thanks to damage modifier.

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.Not really you can't have much output from duelist contrary to the above class.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.keep whining mate, keep whining.

If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!

I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.

LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:

Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the crap.Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst shit to fit my agenda.You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.

like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.this is you, biased. as always.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

That seems a bit suspect. You can AA a Light Golem to death in 8 seconds on Spellbreaker Dagger or Sword(takes around 0.5 seconds longer). Standard Strength build.

I'll show the builds later when I get home. I'm not going to stack full damage traits/runes/amulets/sigils/boons for the sake of consistency so what you guys are seeing are just what the skills normally would hit for.

Obviously if I went full 25 might tether on the meta build + all of the additional damage modifiers it would hit harder but I could do the same thing on mesmer for Phantasmal Duelist.

[shadowpass.4236]

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...

Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.

Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

1. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
2. TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
3. TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
4. TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

5. TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

Can you stop post biased troll post from someone who clearly have no clue about damage/CD efficiency please ?Show gear/trait in your vids please and even with that, if you don't proc multiplier you know that your prove is biased, I mean lol a 3k maul and war hundred blade with no might stack.I'm ok if you want to make again a mesmer long discussion here you can, but get ready to discuss a long time because the damage you want to nerf on your initial post isn't op in regards to CD/animation/trait investment/type of attacks in the current meta.

So you'd like me to stack some damage modifiers before I use the hard hitting skills on warrior and ranger? lol

The mes was on wanderers and the ranger and war were both on demolishers (ya know, the meta). I'll make a few more vids later if I remember.

Yes because contrary to mesmer, ranger and warrior output much of their damage thanks to damage modifier.

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.Not really you can't have much output from duelist contrary to the above class.

Phantasmal Duelist can hit way harder than it did in the video but I'll show that later.

Contrary to ranger and warrior, mirages can literally do enough damage to kill people every time they dodge.