Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

bravan.3876 · November 1, 2019

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@bravan.3876 said:the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

It should be, because in theory Condimirages dmg output should be nearly the same only the application should be more active and for that with higher risk for the Mesmer and less abilities to play defensive all the time. But even if it would lead to underperfroming PvE builds, Cal mentioned that they can compensate in PvE for dmg loses through mechanic changes by adjusting numbers.

apharma.3741 · November 1, 2019

@Aza.2105 said:
@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Really don't like the rampage changes. Over 99% power scaling reduction on these skills is way overkill. While I can agree with rampage's combination of cc and damage being oppressive, these are skills that feel like they should hit hard and at .01 power scaling they will be pretty much the lowest damage skills in the game. Go for about 30% damage reduction on these skills instead, being hit by a giant flying Boulder should hurt, being kicked or body slammed by a brute in a steroid induced frenzy should hurt, just not so much that rampage is a "win" button.

I disagree, rampage is bad for the game. A elite skill should enhance your fighting or defensive capability not become a near I win button. Rampage hits REALLY hard, it should of never been that strong.

The way I see it is this is putting rampage into a position where it does lots of CC and when someone comes to +1 the fight and get the kill fast you can pop rampage in prep, CC 1 or even 2 foes nicely while the ally gets the kills.

Remember this may not be balanced for the game in it's current state, it may be a look at things to come, where skills do dramatically less than everything all at once.

Twilight Tempest.7584 · November 1, 2019

@viquing.8254 said:
@"bravan.3876" said:I am not sure why ppl still repeating "IH is the problem" like a narrowed Mantra after i explained very detailed and based on logic why IH is not the problem and why all previous suggestions from put ICD on it, destroying the clones after hit the ambush, make DE clones not do the ambush and what else stuff got mentioned will just kill the whole trait and all active and skillful gameplay aspects of that trait way more than the passive effects, because the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes? Otherwise explain to me how you all miss the active gameplay part of that trait so heavily (that explains why you barely see Power Mirages utilizing active combos with IH i guess, aside from spamming gs ambushes here and there) and explain to me why nerfing the condi ambushes instead a whole trait looks worse in your eyes. I am all ears and willing to learn otherwise pls stop calling out a trait without further explanations after i explained with 1000000 sentences why there is more into that trait than passive condi application and that the passivity mostly lies in the condi ambushes and not the trait.
I will not restart to analyse all suggestion to nerf IH which do not make sense and would even dumb down Mirage by killing all the active gameplay aspects from that trait for all builds. I only use one example that is ICD on IH (simply because it got explained by several different ppl already why an ICD on a dodge trait is stupid, still ppl always come up with that again and again, it is annoying when you don't see any learning effect, any constructive improvement in the discussion at all, and just repeating "IH is the problem" like a mantra also will not make that true, so pls explain at least why you think i am wrong).
Example why all suggestions to nerf IH i heard until now are all bad/shortsighted (example ICD):
ICD makes the dodge trait completely and for that even more passive because ppl cannot work active with it anymore when the trait is on ICD after they needed to dodge defensive. The active on purpose use for the traiteffect then is totally restricted down to uselessness by ICD and makes it a pure passive effect happening when the player needs to dodge an attack: The player can't and for that doesn't need to think about this trait at all anymore because he can't utilize it active anyway most of the time.Is that rly that hard to understand? I can't believe that such obvious logic is that hard to get into your minds, i rly don't get it. If not by yourself then at least when it is explained to you by several ppl already. But it feels like talking to a wall or to someone not reading/ listening, so you ppl just repeat the same nerf suggestions like a broken record... ICD on dodge traits make the trait completely passive by preventing active on purpose use every time it is on ICD after a dodge the player did for defensive purpose only (aka evading an attack). When you want to make Condimirage more active then ICD on IH is the worst thing you can add. How would you feel about an ICD on Warrior dodge trait and how would a Warrior feel?
It is much easier to only adjust the overperforming condi ambush skill (either rework into something more utility based by adding non dmg condis and reduce the dmg or the easier way just reduce the dmg and in both cases give that reduced dmg back into shatters again) instead killing a whole trait for no reason. You either operate with a scalpel for fine tuning or you just murder the whole body with an axe. I prefer the first way, in particular because the result is the same: Less condiclone dmg gameplay (but in a way without killing active and reactive gameplay mechanics as a side effect). I get that most of you ppl only want an easy and fast fix you can understand without problems. IH is the easiest to put the finger on, it sounds good, must be right, right? No, not at all. As often stuff is not that easy and onesided.
I mean, you have the right goal, the same as me: Make Condimesmer more active playstyle again! But the ways you suggest to get there are completely contradicting this goal, even would dumb down the spec and kill an interesting active gameplay mechanic IH can and does offers with balanced and active ambush skills. Actually makes me crazy because i think the logic is obvious. I am just tired of reading nerf suggestions pretending to higher skill ceiling but in the end dumb down the game instead in my view, sadly it happens the most for Mesmer class.
Just my two cents as a multiclass player.

In introduction, I'm not at all for a IH change as the output damage is really low and more importantly : predictable (like "hey I'm doing a pretty staff animation,

evade in 3, 2 , 1 ,...

") , even atm.

But What I can understand is that it mix the different way you have to evade :

When you evade actively = burning an evade to ambush, it's fine, it's active and have counterpart etc.
Whereas when you evade defensively =you evade a key skill, then poping the ambush by default.
The the last way is burning an evade to save the clones from an aoe but is pretty rare in practise it's a side effect of a defensive evade.

Now using ambush offensively on condi build isn't worth it

that's why we see this passive gameplay

so people use it only defensively because it's more efficient to let the clone dps than to shatter them or to make them ambush.

Then I totally agree that it will be way better with a mesmer having a "hudge ambush" while clone having minor so that doing an ambush offensively worth it and evading a key skill didn't trigger average ambush. Because let's face it, most ambush are trash without IH.Now this is the sheep effect of forums, one sheep say "nerf IH", all sheep who get killed by a mesmer go on by never playing it with no clue about what it implie.

@Cal Cohen.3527, you alluded to more fundamental changes (redesign?) of Condi Mirage in the future. I think the principles in the quoted posts are good and worth considering. They've been stated by others throughout other discussions for a while as well.

In short, Infinite Horizon is not the problem. Clone damage is. An elegant solution to encouraging more active, less passive condi mirage play is to transfer clone damage (both autos and ambushes) to the player's own attacks and shatters. That's it. This addresses the issues of the player hanging back defensively while letting clones do much of the damage, of allowing opponents to focus on the player and less on the clones, and reducing clone up-time generally by making shatters worthwhile--all without nerfing traits and skills that unduly impact underperforming core Mesmer and Chrono.

I hope these points have registered and are considered in the eventual update. Regardless, the current communication and attention to major balance issues are really appreciated.

Turk.5460 · November 1, 2019

Apply these changes to WvW as well. Almost all of them are overperforming in WvW even more than they are in sPvP due to the gear stats and food available.

Khalisto.5780 · November 1, 2019

I just don't like 2 things

I don't think nerfing weapons will solve the mirage problem, I think you have to do something to Infinite Horizons

Those nerfs makes me think we gonna have sceter/pistol axe/torch mirages

50 to 10% is a bit too drastic, 20% is ok

mortrialus.3062 · November 1, 2019

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...
Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)

Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.

if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D

Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.

Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.

dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )

https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54

6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range,

usable while moving.

so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.

Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!

Keep reaching lmao.

If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.keep whining mate, keep whining.

If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!

I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.

LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:

Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.

like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.this is you, biased. as always.

Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.

Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.

The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.

Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.

Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.

You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.

I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.

I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.

I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.

rowdy.5107 · November 1, 2019

@L A T I O N.8923 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dos designs as well?Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

Thiefs best defense is his offense.. The longer the enemy stays alive. Your odds of surviving the fight drop. Yes you have evades, shadow steps, cloak exc.. But what happens when you cant burst somebody and that stuff starts running out? Perfect example: Ele and Guards shrug off a thiefs condi damage. The Only time they have a chance at beating them is if the thief can burst and HOPE the ele or guard wasn't paying attention. Or catch them in a cooldown. With all the sustain, armor, cleanse, heals exc that all the other classes have, Thief needs something to be able to keep up with them. At the LEAST more HP. Especially if anet is looking for a more "grindy" approach. If they want them to not burst and to actually last in a fight. They need to give the thief a little more sustainability so they can last in a fight.

I mean if you rely on An enemy being unaware, this might not be a propper class for you

Hey I understand that nerfing things for people like YOU is ok... But thief has been hit with the nerf stick so much because of people like you that are too lazy to learn how to fight them, and come onto the forums and cry about it. Never seen a community with so many people crying about builds, instead of just learning the mechanics of the class and learning ways to adapt to them. There is a counter to everything. And obviously crying is the best counter for literally everything here.Common sense says, if you are going to nerf something. You need to look at a balance to what you are taking away.

Psycoprophet.8107 · November 1, 2019

@rowdy.5107 said:
@L A T I O N.8923 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dos designs as well?Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

Thiefs best defense is his offense.. The longer the enemy stays alive. Your odds of surviving the fight drop. Yes you have evades, shadow steps, cloak exc.. But what happens when you cant burst somebody and that stuff starts running out? Perfect example: Ele and Guards shrug off a thiefs condi damage. The Only time they have a chance at beating them is if the thief can burst and HOPE the ele or guard wasn't paying attention. Or catch them in a cooldown. With all the sustain, armor, cleanse, heals exc that all the other classes have, Thief needs something to be able to keep up with them. At the LEAST more HP. Especially if anet is looking for a more "grindy" approach. If they want them to not burst and to actually last in a fight. They need to give the thief a little more sustainability so they can last in a fight.

I mean if you rely on An enemy being unaware, this might not be a propper class for you

Hey I understand that nerfing things for people like YOU is ok... But thief has been hit with the nerf stick so much because of people like you that are too lazy to learn how to fight them, and come onto the forums and cry about it. Never seen a community with so many people crying about builds, instead of just learning the mechanics of the class and learning ways to adapt to them. There is a counter to everything. And obviously crying is the best counter for literally everything here.Common sense says, if you are going to nerf something. You need to look at a balance to what you are taking away.

Some nerf post are definitely valid but a huge chunk are exactly what u say and that's why I stated that I hope the new devs are talented enough to tell the difference and pick out the few valid among many unvalid bias pain points that are posted almost daily. Also why I feel the players are helping kill their own mmo by not being able to look beyond their own class but we all know how peeps are as a whole right?

Daniel Handler.4816 · November 1, 2019

@Zenix.6198 said:Hold up, Hold up, Hold up, Hold up, Hold up.....actual competency?
(plz don't ban, this is just a complement in disguise)

They have always been competent. But even if you do several good things and only a little bad, if you don't fix the bad it becomes a problem that damages trust.

Toron.4856 · November 2, 2019

Nerfing a skill from hitting 10.000 to 300 is overkill. I agree with the need of Nerfing rampage but Nerfing it into the ground is perhaps too much. It won't have any use anymore like that which brings us to the point that war doesn't really have any good elites. Signet could really need a rework atm.

AsiraasiB.7165 · November 2, 2019

Can I have Ricochet back ???????

Bear.9568 · November 2, 2019

Buff thief

Shiro.2158 · November 2, 2019

Warrior’s CunningI agree with everything, but this change. I do agree that Warriors cunning needs a nerf, but side noder warrior doesn't need a 25% boost when its foe is at max health, so it would be a wasted trait, the main problem is really just barrier, instead of a 50% boost, it should ignore the barrier, or at least go through 50% of the targets current barrier.

This way you cant 1 shot people, just because they have 10 barrier, but you can still have fun with builds like rifle warrior that aren't good at pvp, but are still quite fun in lower teirs. What we need is to make it so side noder warrior(warriors main job in all tiers) stays in its place, and doesn't become a god, so if we just make it so this reads as this

25% damage boost to foes at 100% hpignore barriers/ignores 50% of targets current barrier count

Ruufio.1496 · November 2, 2019

No. Don't touch the stability on U or any other engineer ability at this point. They're all pretty well balanced out now, stability-wise. Maybe function gyro AOE stab is subpar but that's not for this discussion.

You want to nerf the quickness, basically, right? Maybe try something like this:

Elixir U: Stability and vigor are now 5s instead of 6s. For 5s attacking a foe grants quickness (1s) with 1s ICD. Does not grant quickness on the initial activation of the skill. Also does not grant quickness if attacks are whiffed (blinded, blocked, evaded etc.)

This gives a small window where opponents can react against the engineer landing hits to gain quickness. Stability is hard to come by and this skill is not an issue because of its stability, especially for core/scrapper.

This also makes the quickness practically unaffected by boon duration since it is only 1s long.

@Cal Cohen.3527

Ignore the whiners. There's no counterplay to quickness spam so this would be fair TBH.

Ithilwen.1529 · November 2, 2019

I feel that Mesmer is under attack again. It's frustrating and disappointing.

L A T I O N.8923 · November 2, 2019

@rowdy.5107 said:
@L A T I O N.8923 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:If you are trying to turn the condi from burst to a grindy build. You need to boost HP or stability or something to balance these changes. If not, all you are doing is making thief useless in a fight. If you are gonna nerf something, you gotta find a balance to the thing you are nerfing.

What? It's like u think a rogue class should be bursty u confused person u. Just because every other rogue archetypes are doesn't mean gw2 is or was initially sopose to be as well. I mean it's not like thief is low hp/armor that uses high mobility and evasiveness to survive like the other rogue's in other mmo's right? So why would it share their higher burst lower sustained dos designs as well?Lol can't wait to see things a yr from now if game keeps tricking along.I'm confused as to why u would have even picked thief to play if those were the playstyle's u wanted :)

Thiefs best defense is his offense.. The longer the enemy stays alive. Your odds of surviving the fight drop. Yes you have evades, shadow steps, cloak exc.. But what happens when you cant burst somebody and that stuff starts running out? Perfect example: Ele and Guards shrug off a thiefs condi damage. The Only time they have a chance at beating them is if the thief can burst and HOPE the ele or guard wasn't paying attention. Or catch them in a cooldown. With all the sustain, armor, cleanse, heals exc that all the other classes have, Thief needs something to be able to keep up with them. At the LEAST more HP. Especially if anet is looking for a more "grindy" approach. If they want them to not burst and to actually last in a fight. They need to give the thief a little more sustainability so they can last in a fight.

I mean if you rely on An enemy being unaware, this might not be a propper class for you

Hey I understand that nerfing things for people like YOU is ok... But thief has been hit with the nerf stick so much because of people like you that are too lazy to learn how to fight them, and come onto the forums and cry about it. Never seen a community with so many people crying about builds, instead of just learning the mechanics of the class and learning ways to adapt to them. There is a counter to everything. And obviously crying is the best counter for literally everything here.Common sense says, if you are going to nerf something. You need to look at a balance to what you are taking away.

Im not crying on anything that needs a nerfI mean i Just quite the game if i get to frustrated when i get oneshotted out of stealth by a full glass thief/de or fight a spellbreaker with double endure pain, traited on max dodgerolls, including damage (those cut through my defense as guard) full counter and somehow got damage reduction on their elite while hitting insanely highWhen i fight and overbuffed Reaper cleaving me for half my health when i run 20k HP

Yeah i dont complain about nerves but i love to play a game i can think about 'hey how should i counter this' instead of kiting forever or die instantly

And yet i remained close to plat 2 na and plat 2 EU last season while running off meta builds for guard

Please tell me more on how i should cry less and get better?

Leonidrex.5649 · November 2, 2019

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:Umm...
Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.

now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.

Suuuure... if you insist.

TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)
TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds
TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds
TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds

Bonus!

TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)