PVP mesmer changes -> Discussion ( ill edit in my thoughts later propably )

[Heika.5403]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I just had a bit of fridge logic. If the endurance reduction to mirage is only for PVP, then it isn't the true compensation that elite specs are supposed to get. It is just a PVP balancing measure.

Meaning... Mirage is going to get nerfed again in the future, to give it a true tradeoff for all game modes.

Dont think they care about there not being a tradeoff in PvE

They care, as all other specializations that already received their tradeoff, have them GLOBAL. Nobody from Arenanet has mentioned that the single dodge in PvP/WvW is the Mirage's tradeoff. It was only mentioned by players in the forum. So the Mirage tradeoff is still pending. The single dodge is a competitive nerf that will make it undesirable to play in PvP/WvW. The real and GLOBAL tradeoff who knows... Maybe wil make it clunky too in PvE or undesirable to not let the Chronomancer feel lonely as an unplayed specialization outside the niche raid and only by few players where ren/fb are preferred now. We will see when they do the rework.... I believe that Firebrand is still pending too and i can't remember the other ones that are still waiting their tradeoffs too.

Imagine that after the "Feel My Wrath!" proposed change, there are already people claiming a change/nerf of quickness in Time Warp, etc.... Yes, in PvE there are people like that too, not only in PvP. And surely that they'll often remind developers that Mirage and others are still pending of a rework with their tradeoff.

[Levetty.1279]

Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

[kraai.7265]

@Simonoly.4352 said:I'm assuming that Mirage -50% endurance has been thoroughly tested in the context of all the other nerfs and changes and is actually a functional change. Otherwise it's going to be utterly unplayable. Sacrificing not just half of your endurance but also the movement involved with regular dodging. Oh deary me.

I also assume that this means Mirage Cloak itself will be buffed to be far more potent and the Ambush Skills will become super dangerous and impactful now that the resource powering them has been halved. A resource I must add, that's already in competition with its use for simply dodging.

Mirage might die yes...

Tested... lmao, like if anet tests all the crap they added to the game so far for the past 2 years...

[Zoser.7245]

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how shitty trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

[Zoser.7245]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how kitten trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

But i'm sure that you now well that when they release a specialization tradeoff.... It not only change and touch a skill or trait. It focus a whole pack of changes around their idea, the main one plus colateral damage, related traits, etc. They did it with Chonomancer, Daredevil, Scourge, etc. Now seems that it's time to the Soulbeast with a single pet merge plus related stats and traits. I would love to not see crazy future changes to Mirage but it's to be seen if we will have luck with that. Of course, the best will be if they ignore us... because it seems that, depending of how inspired they are, you can end with a reasonable tradeoff, better at some point or an aberration like Chronomancer. I believe remember that they mentioned a specialization that they already considered to have its tradeoff without rework, i can't remember which one. But sure it wasn't the Mirage.

Will us be ignored/lucky/fortunate too?

One thing i don't like is that with us, they change things that affect how you play in different game modes. Like lose a Jaunt, lose a dodge, less illusions to attack or shatter with x skill. That makes you change your strategy and game style or combos between game modes. If the actual team do that only for balance, can't imagine what they could do to Mirage in a tradeoff rework, very scary, and more watching what they did with Chronomancer.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how kitten trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

But i'm sure that you now well that when they release a specialization tradeoff.... It not only change and touch a skill or trait. It focus a whole pack of changes around their idea, the main one plus colateral damage, related traits, etc. They did it with Chonomancer, Daredevil, Scourge, etc. Now seems that it's time to the Soulbeast with a single pet merge plus related stats and traits. I would love to not see crazy future changes to Mirage but it's to be seen if we will have luck with that. Of course, the best will be if they ignore us... because it seems that, depending of how inspired they are, you can end with a reasonable tradeoff, better at some point or an aberration like Chronomancer. I believe remember that they mentioned a specialization that they already considered to have its tradeoff without rework, i can't remember which one. But sure it wasn't the Mirage.

Will us be ignored/lucky/fortunate too?

One thing i don't like is that with us, they change things that affect how you play in different game modes. Like lose a Jaunt, lose a dodge, less illusions to attack or shatter with x skill. That makes you change your strategy and game style or combos between game modes. If the actual team do that only for balance, can't imagine what they could do to Mirage in a tradeoff rework, very scary, and more watching what they did with Chronomancer.

why are we even talking about it, mirage is not even played for pve, its only on couple of bosses as condi build and thats it. easly replaced by burn builds

[Zoser.7245]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how kitten trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

But i'm sure that you now well that when they release a specialization tradeoff.... It not only change and touch a skill or trait. It focus a whole pack of changes around their idea, the main one plus colateral damage, related traits, etc. They did it with Chonomancer, Daredevil, Scourge, etc. Now seems that it's time to the Soulbeast with a single pet merge plus related stats and traits. I would love to not see crazy future changes to Mirage but it's to be seen if we will have luck with that. Of course, the best will be if they ignore us... because it seems that, depending of how inspired they are, you can end with a reasonable tradeoff, better at some point or an aberration like Chronomancer. I believe remember that they mentioned a specialization that they already considered to have its tradeoff without rework, i can't remember which one. But sure it wasn't the Mirage.

Will us be ignored/lucky/fortunate too?

One thing i don't like is that with us, they change things that affect how you play in different game modes. Like lose a Jaunt, lose a dodge, less illusions to attack or shatter with x skill. That makes you change your strategy and game style or combos between game modes. If the actual team do that only for balance, can't imagine what they could do to Mirage in a tradeoff rework, very scary, and more watching what they did with Chronomancer.

why are we even talking about it, mirage is not even played for pve, its only on couple of bosses as condi build and thats it. easly replaced by burn builds

Well, the tradeoff, if released, will affect all game modes. It'll be good know if we are in the list and what are their plans. Mirage could end not being played at any game mode too. But yes, maybe is better not to talk about it and watch if they forget us, LOL. Each time that we try to give them good or reasonable ideas to avoid terrible changes, we often end even worse, less in the old glory times. We still could suffer even worse surprises/changes in the next balance patch that those we already saw, they are still working on it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how kitten trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

But i'm sure that you now well that when they release a specialization tradeoff.... It not only change and touch a skill or trait. It focus a whole pack of changes around their idea, the main one plus colateral damage, related traits, etc. They did it with Chonomancer, Daredevil, Scourge, etc. Now seems that it's time to the Soulbeast with a single pet merge plus related stats and traits. I would love to not see crazy future changes to Mirage but it's to be seen if we will have luck with that. Of course, the best will be if they ignore us... because it seems that, depending of how inspired they are, you can end with a reasonable tradeoff, better at some point or an aberration like Chronomancer. I believe remember that they mentioned a specialization that they already considered to have its tradeoff without rework, i can't remember which one. But sure it wasn't the Mirage.

Will us be ignored/lucky/fortunate too?

One thing i don't like is that with us, they change things that affect how you play in different game modes. Like lose a Jaunt, lose a dodge, less illusions to attack or shatter with x skill. That makes you change your strategy and game style or combos between game modes. If the actual team do that only for balance, can't imagine what they could do to Mirage in a tradeoff rework, very scary, and more watching what they did with Chronomancer.

why are we even talking about it, mirage is not even played for pve, its only on couple of bosses as condi build and thats it. easly replaced by burn builds

Well, the tradeoff, if released, will affect all game modes. It'll be good know if we are in the list and what are their plans. Mirage could end not being played at any game mode too. But yes, maybe is better not to talk about it and watch if they forget us, LOL. Each time that we try to give them good or reasonable ideas to avoid terrible changes, we often end even worse, less in the old glory times. We still could suffer even worse surprises/changes in the next balance patch that those we already saw, they are still working on it.

what we say or do changes nothing, if they want to shit on mirage same way as chrono they will do so. and no ammout of whining will change anything.all I can do is buy no gems, and I wont. untill chrono is fixed untill mirage stops getting gutted and untill bugs start getting fixed I aint paying

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

if you lose something and gain something is a tradeoff, if they accept it or not is meaningless. no matter how kitten trade off is its still a tradeoff.even core guard going FB is a tradeoff, ofc FB is better in every aspect but its still a tradeoff.

But i'm sure that you now well that when they release a specialization tradeoff.... It not only change and touch a skill or trait. It focus a whole pack of changes around their idea, the main one plus colateral damage, related traits, etc. They did it with Chonomancer, Daredevil, Scourge, etc. Now seems that it's time to the Soulbeast with a single pet merge plus related stats and traits. I would love to not see crazy future changes to Mirage but it's to be seen if we will have luck with that. Of course, the best will be if they ignore us... because it seems that, depending of how inspired they are, you can end with a reasonable tradeoff, better at some point or an aberration like Chronomancer. I believe remember that they mentioned a specialization that they already considered to have its tradeoff without rework, i can't remember which one. But sure it wasn't the Mirage.

Will us be ignored/lucky/fortunate too?

One thing i don't like is that with us, they change things that affect how you play in different game modes. Like lose a Jaunt, lose a dodge, less illusions to attack or shatter with x skill. That makes you change your strategy and game style or combos between game modes. If the actual team do that only for balance, can't imagine what they could do to Mirage in a tradeoff rework, very scary, and more watching what they did with Chronomancer.

why are we even talking about it, mirage is not even played for pve, its only on couple of bosses as condi build and thats it. easly replaced by burn builds

Nefs hurt the casual players, too.

[appelflap.8310]

chrono will be good again after patch XD

[Moradorin.6217]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

As I recall they cut down the speed to 66% and duration by .25 sec because people claimed it was better (only in forward direction) for moving which boosted mirages "mobility". Pretty sure it was around the same time they added more cooldown to blink and reduced jaunt to 2 from 3 ammo cause people complained mirage was too mobile. However, going backwards its VERY slow and you get stuck also certain skills no longer work if you dont face the opponent. So IMO the reduced movement given my Mirage cloak should fairly be considered the downside that balances it. Put another way, normal dodge roll, moves you quickly out the way of attacks in addition to allowing one to evade the attack, however, mirage cloak DOESNT move you out of danger, and ONLY gives the same 3/4s evade any dodge provides. The increase to movement is obviously to give the mirage the option to try and move out of the same area a normal dodge would withing the same time frame. The drawback is you cannot move backwards, yet dodge can dodge backwards without a distance loss and so many situations mirage cloak gives you the evade window but doesnt allow you get out of danager as well as a normal dodge. The benefit of mirage cloak is that you can still activate skills while gaining the evade since you are not mid roll during the evade. Again remember mirage ambush doesnt hit if you not facing opponent, same with mantras, and other things like scepter 2 counter so having to turn to move out of the way in what would be a simple backwards dodge removes the ambush damage, etc.

In my opinion, this is seems totally lost much of the time in the "balance" debate. The fact is Mirage cloak is balanced and always was.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:Mirage's tradeoff is the reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak over normal dodging especially as they nerfed it again post launch.

What i remember is that they nerfed it due to consider too much and OP the duration of the old superspeed plus the evade. And they did it to equal it, from their point of view, to a normal dodge in duration and travel distance with the new 66% increased movement speed if you move... Where is the official statement that reduced movement given by Mirage Cloak is the Mirage's tradeoff?

Don't be surprised if, at some point, they release their "ideal" tradeoff for Mirage in a future balance. Be ready to that unless something officially is written about it.

As I recall they cut down the speed to 66% and duration by .25 sec because people claimed it was better (only in forward direction) for moving which boosted mirages "mobility". Pretty sure it was around the same time they added more cooldown to blink and reduced jaunt to 2 from 3 ammo cause people complained mirage was too mobile. However, going backwards its VERY slow and you get stuck also certain skills no longer work if you dont face the opponent. So IMO the reduced movement given my Mirage cloak should fairly be considered the downside that balances it. Put another way, normal dodge roll, moves you quickly out the way of attacks in addition to allowing one to evade the attack, however, mirage cloak DOESNT move you out of danger, and ONLY gives the same 3/4s evade any dodge provides. The increase to movement is obviously to give the mirage the option to try and move out of the same area a normal dodge would withing the same time frame. The drawback is you cannot move backwards, yet dodge can dodge backwards without a distance loss and so many situations mirage cloak gives you the evade window but doesnt allow you get out of danager as well as a normal dodge. The benefit of mirage cloak is that you can still activate skills while gaining the evade since you are not mid roll during the evade. Again remember mirage ambush doesnt hit if you not facing opponent, same with mantras, and other things like scepter 2 counter so having to turn to move out of the way in what would be a simple backwards dodge removes the ambush damage, etc.

In my opinion, this is seems totally lost much of the time in the "balance" debate. The fact is Mirage cloak is balanced and always was.

I dont think you have to face your oponent for scept 2 to register, it even works on stealthed targets you cant see.

[Moradorin.6217]

Pretty sure the block is all that works now when running away. pretty positive it was a change they made last year I will check.

Edited: Yea I don't see it in the skill info changes so maybe I was thinking of something else. Regardless the point still stands that allot of things don't work when you aren't facing the opponent like ambush damage, mantras, etc. Also my main point is and was that normal dodge provides fast movement out of danager by a certain distance while dodging but doesnt allow for skill use, while mirage cloak does allow for skill use during the evade window but doesnt move you out of danger automatically like a basic dodge does which is an obvious tradeoff, all built in since the start.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Regarding mirage cloak I'll just say this, in the beta when MC was 0.75, mirage was voted the one of most awful pof spec, even non mesmer mains voted mesmer as trash, that was the reason MC got buffed to 1sec.Mirage nowadays is a lot and I mean A LOT weaker than pof beta.What changed? Newbies and unskilled players who can't be bothered to l2p, it is easier to come to the forums asking for nerfs, since this "balance" team caves in to every single qq.

[Curunen.8729]

Peeking back in here to see looks certain that -50 endurance nerf is going to go through.

Big problem being discontinuity between PvE with 100 endurance and PvP/WvW with 50 endurance - which will likely not translate gameplay well between modes, unlike pretty much every other core or elite spec.

Either they should global -50 endurance and seriously rebalance other parts of mirage - ie, vigour, 1s mirage cloak duration, possibly trait giving faster endurance regen or direct endurance refill, Jaunt cooldown, Mirror availability, etc - to move the gameplay into faster regenerating but less chainable evade frame access offering clearer windows of opportunity for counterplay but allowing the spec to play consistently in a new way between all game modes.

Otherwise this is going to be a big mess. I'll still play, casually as is the case nowdays, but this isn't enticing me to want to play much.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Shaft Shaft Shaft, that's the sound of the mesmer taking it from the back!

They will nerf and destroy anything special about us, trying to number nerf us down where nubs can kill us easy enough, but this only makes us totallly worthless against someone that can play because all our advantages are gone - We are a class that is confusing if you have no idea what you are doing against us, but not particularly good at the highest level and that was before all the nerfs. They listen to the criers. Why does people hate condi when condi often does less damage, and even over time, than direct dmg abilities? And on top there are even cleanses. I can get crit for 16k in one fucking 10s 1500 range bow ability on full max toughness and yet they keep harping on about us coz they think are OP coz of the hidden hand. Theif can chainspam movement abilities for a long time and keep going they have INSANE mobility there are so many more op things than the measly mesmer ghost that is left.

Their nerfs soon leaves us with meaningful options condi chronos, power mirage and core mesmer. Hahahahah, nice balance. The hate train really got rolling on mesmer, and now we are worst than ever.

Shaft Shaft Shaft