Thief

[Yasai.3549]

Thief's Steal traits need to be hit eventually.

Steal is really one of the most busted profession mechanic in the game, being that it can slot so much utility it's basically an Elite skill on a 20 second cooldown.(someone once posted a screenshot of a DD Swipe having nearly 10 effects, and it is all logical traits a meta DD build would take so yur not losing anything by picking them)

Usually, professions won't even wanna do this and dump all their trait into a single focused skill, but Thief can afford to do this because their Weaponskills have no cooldown and they have various ways of managing their resource to allow them to apply continued pressure regardless of single busted cooldown (which I might add, is not very long)

[Cronos.6532]

@Yasai.3549 said:Thief's Steal traits need to be hit eventually.

Steal is really one of the most busted profession mechanic in the game, being that it can slot so much utility it's basically an Elite skill on a 20 second cooldown.(someone once posted a screenshot of a DD Swipe having nearly 10 effects, and it is all logical traits a meta DD build would take so yur not losing anything by picking them)

Usually, professions won't even wanna do this and dump all their trait into a single focused skill, but Thief can afford to do this because their Weaponskills have no cooldown and they have various ways of managing their resource to allow them to apply continued pressure regardless of single busted cooldown (which I might add, is not very long)

Makes sense as it is the thief's only profession skill and should stay that way

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Tayga.3192 said:d/p would be perfectly fine if smokescreen was a shorter duration skill on a 35s cd. Also some of backstab damage should be transferred to heartseeker so it's not a OHKO.

Transferring damage between Heartseeker and Backstab would pretty much solve anything, since they can still deal equal amounts of damage from 1.2k range away via Black Powder.

You'd only increase the amount of thieves spamming 2 after a backstab via Assassin's Signet. If either of these proc Haste, to boot, you aren't dodging/blocking them all.

[Tayga.3192]

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:Transferring damage between Heartseeker and Backstab would pretty much solve anything, since they can still deal equal amounts of damage from 1.2k range away via Black Powder.You'd only increase the amount of thieves spamming 2 after a backstab via Assassin's Signet. If either of these proc Haste, to boot, you aren't dodging/blocking them all.

Backstab + some heartseekers doing x damage is better than backstab doing x damage on its own. For starters, this already "kind of" happened. HS is not nerfed in the patch but backstab is nerfed, which essentially means transferring damage.

Passive/RNG quickness needs to be deleted.Also by "short duration on smokescreen" I meant at most 4 seconds.

Don't forget I'm asking for these ALONGSIDE current thief nerfs.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"bluri.2653" said:Buff thief

we win by walking away with our head up and leaving trash behind

-19 players quit the game today and joined our guild in Square Enix: Final Fantasy 14 in twitch . They will reconsider 'if the balance patch removes 8 years of piles of trash that was dumped....'-

I don't blame them one bit. I actually walked into wvw and pvp and the +1 shots by every profession with Thief Profession +1 shotting in stealth except Necromancer Profession were literally beyond disgust, disgraceful

I will return on the day on the patch to judge actions, not words and if they both don't add up....i will way away with a smile on my face knowing it was good for the better end

i was urgently asked to post this video by a Elementalist Profession player to 'poke fun at how ludicrous the class is' Elementalist Profession have no identity; what has changed really?? when did an Elementalist Class have a high scale survivability or a high scale healing like...if not more than a Guardian Class? Ludicrous indeed

I'm sry I must have miss understood what ur trying to preach here. Are u saying ele has no identity and dies not have high class survivability? Have u even played gw2 in last 5 months?

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"bluri.2653" said:Buff thief

we win by walking away with our head up and leaving trash behind

-19 players quit the game today and joined our guild in Square Enix: Final Fantasy 14 in twitch . They will reconsider 'if the balance patch removes 8 years of piles of trash that was dumped....'-

I don't blame them one bit. I actually walked into wvw and pvp and the +1 shots by every profession with Thief Profession +1 shotting in stealth except Necromancer Profession were literally beyond disgust, disgraceful

I will return on the day on the patch to judge actions, not words and if they both don't add up....i will way away with a smile on my face knowing it was good for the better end

i was urgently asked to post this video by a Elementalist Profession player to 'poke fun at how ludicrous the class is' Elementalist Profession have no identity; what has changed really?? when did an Elementalist Class have a high scale survivability or a high scale healing like...if not more than a Guardian Class? Ludicrous indeed

I'm sry I must have miss understood what ur trying to preach here. Are u saying ele has no identity and dies not have high class survivability? Have u even played gw2 in last

5 months

7 years?

FTFY.

Edit: That guy's video editing skills are on point, I won't lie.

[Sindrener.1592]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once

.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd now

end result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impact

What? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill.

The only time you’ll evade steal from stealth, is with the help of lady luck, realistically speaking.

@"bluri.2653" said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.

If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.

Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.

a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!

I’m sorry but let’s be real here, you’re by far the biggest thief apologist in the game. Regardless of your personal performance in a game mode that has more to do with strategy and less to do with actually fighting people.

How is anyone supposed to take your word for it?

I suggest you take a stroll in a game mode about fighting and killing people, then try to push your “please don’t nerf my main”Inb4 the obligatory “who are you, i’m gud, you bad” comment. We’ve faced off on dozens of occasions and you always struck me as a runner rather than a fighter. But by all means, stick with the apologist buble. I was an apologist for my class once too.

dude it was a copy paste because you are all memes lmao

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Sind laying the smackdown lol.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bluri.2653 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once

.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd now

end result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impact

What? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill.

The only time you’ll evade steal from stealth, is with the help of lady luck, realistically speaking.

@bluri.2653 said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.

If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.

Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.

a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!

I’m sorry but let’s be real here, you’re by far the biggest thief apologist in the game. Regardless of your personal performance in a game mode that has more to do with strategy and less to do with actually fighting people.

How is anyone supposed to take your word for it?

I suggest you take a stroll in a game mode about fighting and killing people, then try to push your “please don’t nerf my main”Inb4 the obligatory “who are you, i’m gud, you bad” comment. We’ve faced off on dozens of occasions and you always struck me as a runner rather than a fighter. But by all means, stick with the apologist buble. I was an apologist for my class once too.

dude it was a copy paste because you are all memes lmao

I'm sorry but given your track record over the years, I couldn't leave it to chance :wink:

[Vancho.8750]

I find that like many classes thief lacks fumble mechanic,it can reset if it fails. Currently the only profession that has proper fumble mechanic is necromancer pop the shroud in the wrong time and that is it, everyone is gone you are sitting and wasting your resource or you can drop it and be without a shroud for 10 seconds, the other is warrior miss your burst skill, you wasted the adrenaline and have to gather it again it is less of a problem for spellbreaker though, guardian has the all in with ports, but cause of defensive cds it can somewhat recover if it goes in the wrong time. Mesmer has a resource but it hardly matters cause they can spew clones constantly and then port out, engi can become invulnerable and then go invisible, ranger was ok but now the GS is better then shield/weapon combo on warrior so they get to be strong in ranged and melee, rev fucks up goes staff and then kills you with sword while doing damage with dodge skill.All in all it is not only thief that lacks the fumble " i fucked up" moment but currently there isn't much you can do to win vs a thief cause they can just run away and comeback in a few seconds after they reset. Port in port out invisible,invisible 10k damage backstab, spin to win, don't get a kill run away reset repeat "FUN".Thief is disliked cause when it is meta it says how everyone should play, it reduces the possible builds for the game just like scourge when it was OP and mesmer was face roll, it is not fun to play on someone else's tune. As long as the design is on purpose unfair no one will like thief and people will want to just delete it.Hope the balance patch does something but i kind of doubt it cause most of the issues come from design not numbers, since some professions follow their starting idea form 2012 while others have been given all the covers for their weaknesses.

[Airdive.2613]

@Vancho.8750 said:it is not fun to play on someone else's tune.Your own actions influence when and how the thief will try to attack you, so it's actually a mind game. A thief engaging blindly is (more often than not) a dead thief.

[Vancho.8750]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:it is not fun to play on someone else's tune.Your own actions influence when and how the thief will try to attack you, so it's actually a mind game. A thief engaging blindly is (more often than not) a dead thief.You play necro you are dead, you play weaver you are not dead. Conclusion don't play necro, no mind game there you either can take the beating from invisibility burst or not. Or you think as a necro you should dodge randomly and be lucky when the thief comes in, isn't luck part of the RP for thief and not necro. I'm using necro cause it is the total opposite of thief here.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Highlie.7641" said:

If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish.

but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.

Thieves have always been throughout the entire lifetime of the game the single hardest class to kill by any opposing build. It is not hard to survive on a thief vs anything. There's a reason every stream you watch, it's always the thief streamer who is the last to die in any fight that goes poorly, or the only one to survive and then cries "OMG Garbage teammates".

Between top tier evade frame uptime tied to multiple sources, dodge roll with high vigor uptime, initiative based skills, your healing skill, multiple utility skills, unparalleled mobility, and access to stealth a thief only dies when they over commit to a fight. A thief has to choose to stay in a losing fight in order to die despite having so many different ways to escape said fight and either try again after resetting, or by rotating to a different area of the map where their presence can swing the status of the game with faster mobility than whatever they were fighting could possibly have.

Now, I'm not saying thief is a brain dead profession. I think all professions take skill. Knowing when and how best to press the offense with a flexible but lower impact combat kit takes skill. When do you go in for a Pistol Whip and when do you port in with a Cluster Bomb burst? When do you go for a Flanky Strike and when do you try to zone them with Choking Gas? And the way they rotate is extremely counter intuitive if you're using to playing standard 1vX specs, team fight builds, or builds that can juggle both those rolls.

There's a lot of depth and skill towards playing thief. But surviving on thief is not one of them at all and to suggest that is poppycock.

Thats the thing though. Thieves are very good at not dying. But not dying is not winning either. Thieves are in fact trivially easy to beat, but not to kill. But just to illustrate that point, lets imagine I built a certain kind of Guardian build. This guardian build would put every available resource into survivability. This hypothetical build would likewise be completely unkillable in a 1v1. Moreso actually, Thieves do die easily to condition bombs, thats like their big weakness, but I digress. This build would however also be one of the easiest to beat. Because youd have to not even do anything to beat it. The build cant kill you. It has no damage. Thief is not quite as extreme as this hypothetical build of course. They can actually be killed, and they also can kill you if you mess up really badly.

But the point still stands. Thief is hilariously easy to beat. The fact that their best asset is their ability to run away really underlines that fact. Warrior is amazing at running away (on flat ground better than thief even), but you never hear people talk about it. Why? Because a Warrior rarely has to run away. Theyre just going to fight and kill you instead.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

Eh, thats the thing though. Thats not steal. Thats multiple traits that steal simply activates. Other professions have those traits as well, they just activate on regular attacks. Are regular attacks OP as well?

[Shao.7236]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

Eh, thats the thing though. Thats not steal. Thats multiple traits that steal simply activates. Other professions have those traits as well, they just activate on regular attacks. Are regular attacks OP as well?

You don't have to beat around the bush, it isn't the traits that attack people but Steal itself.

Still able to be used while stunned without all those traits regardless and that's the biggest issue among the others, who doesn't use Trickery anyway, it might as well be carved into concrete. If they can actually prevent that from happening I wouldn't have a problem with the rest, if I catch a Thief after timing my CC's 3 times in a row, I shouldn't have to do it another time because they can shut me down with Steal everytime.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

Eh, thats the thing though. Thats not steal. Thats multiple traits that steal simply activates. Other professions have those traits as well, they just activate on regular attacks. Are regular attacks OP as well?

You don't have to beat around the bush, it isn't the traits that attack people but Steal itself.

Still able to be used while stunned without all those traits regardless and that's the biggest issue among the others, who doesn't use Trickery anyway, it might as well be carved into concrete. If they can actually prevent that from happening I wouldn't have a problem with the rest, if I catch a Thief after timing my CC's 3 times in a row, I shouldn't have to do it another time because they can shut me down with Steal everytime.

A traitline being mandatory (which yes, is an issue but for a different reason) does not change the fact that its simply a number of traits being condensed into just one skill. And if anything, that is a downside, not an upside. It means that if that one skill gets stopped in any way, you wasted most of your traitlines. As opposed to the on-attack or on-X traits that the other classes have that you just proc with the next attack or X. Also, they cant "shut you down with steal". They can interrupt one skill. Thats it. Im going to assume however that your CC lasts a bit longer than 1 second. Besides, the second CC should already guarantee the kill, thieves only run 1 stunbreak right now.

[Shao.7236]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

Eh, thats the thing though. Thats not steal. Thats multiple traits that steal simply activates. Other professions have those traits as well, they just activate on regular attacks. Are regular attacks OP as well?

You don't have to beat around the bush, it isn't the traits that attack people but Steal itself.

Still able to be used while stunned without all those traits regardless and that's the biggest issue among the others, who doesn't use Trickery anyway, it might as well be carved into concrete. If they can actually prevent that from happening I wouldn't have a problem with the rest, if I catch a Thief after timing my CC's 3 times in a row, I shouldn't have to do it another time because they can shut me down with Steal everytime.

A traitline being mandatory (which yes, is an issue but for a different reason) does not change the fact that its simply a number of traits being condensed into just one skill. And if anything, that is a downside, not an upside. It means that if that one skill gets stopped in any way, you wasted most of your traitlines. As opposed to the on-attack or on-X traits that the other classes have that you just proc with the next attack or X. Also, they cant "shut you down with steal". They can interrupt one skill. Thats it. Im going to assume however that your CC lasts a bit longer than 1 second. Besides, the second CC should already guarantee the kill, thieves only run 1 stunbreak right now.

1? I've seen an average of 2.

You're doing proper maths but not adding the other factors of casting time and pure waiting. If I pull a Thief then prepare for another attack then they decide to Steal as my attack is about to hit and you add 1 second of daze. That's a big window of recovery.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

Eh, thats the thing though. Thats not steal. Thats multiple traits that steal simply activates. Other professions have those traits as well, they just activate on regular attacks. Are regular attacks OP as well?

You don't have to beat around the bush, it isn't the traits that attack people but Steal itself.

Still able to be used while stunned without all those traits regardless and that's the biggest issue among the others, who doesn't use Trickery anyway, it might as well be carved into concrete. If they can actually prevent that from happening I wouldn't have a problem with the rest, if I catch a Thief after timing my CC's 3 times in a row, I shouldn't have to do it another time because they can shut me down with Steal everytime.

A traitline being mandatory (which yes, is an issue but for a different reason) does not change the fact that its simply a number of traits being condensed into just one skill. And if anything, that is a downside, not an upside. It means that if that one skill gets stopped in any way, you wasted most of your traitlines. As opposed to the on-attack or on-X traits that the other classes have that you just proc with the next attack or X. Also, they cant "shut you down with steal". They can interrupt one skill. Thats it. Im going to assume however that your CC lasts a bit longer than 1 second. Besides, the second CC should already guarantee the kill, thieves only run 1 stunbreak right now.

1? I've seen an average of 2.

You're doing proper maths but not adding the other factors of casting time and pure waiting. If I pull a Thief then prepare for another attack then they decide to Steal as my attack is about to hit and you add 1 second of daze. That's a big window of recovery.

The current thief build is D/P thief. Its only stunbreak is Shadowstep (which is also its only way to clear conditions quickly, so put either on the thief and the other becomes a death sentence). Other builds use 2, but again, one is shadowstep. None use 3. At best you could say the average is slightly above 1.

Normally you dont use long cast-time attacks against a thief after ccing them. Steal is a factor, plus its redundant since once thief is locked down, they die to a stiff breeze. But still, if the thief uses steal because otherwise he is finished after your second CC, you are still in a highly favoured position. The best the thief can do is run away at that point. And he wont be able to reengage for about a minute, because his defenses are all down.

[Rickster.8752]

I'd like to see feline grace get a cooldown of 10 seconds or something. Perma vigor from a minor trait is a joke. For a minor trait it is way too good.

I would also like to see shadowstep get a CD increase and shortbow 5 get an init increase.

Lastly I think infiltrators strike needs to be nerfed.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Rickster.8752 said:I'd like to see feline grace get a cooldown of 10 seconds or something. Perma vigor from a minor trait is a joke. For a minor trait it is way too good.

I would also like to see shadowstep get a CD increase and shortbow 5 get an init increase.

Lastly I think infiltrators strike needs to be nerfed.

Pretty much all of those are non-starters. Shadowsteps CD is already incredibly long for a stunbreak, and shortbow 5 is so integral to thief that any attempt to nerf it has to come with major compensation buffs. And Im talking damage buffs of more than 30% accross the board level of major.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:The current thief build is D/P thief. Its only stunbreak is Shadowstep (which is also its only way to clear conditions quickly, so put either on the thief and the other becomes a death sentence). Other builds use 2, but again, one is shadowstep. None use 3. At best you could say the average is slightly above 1.

Save Shadowstep for large CC's that you would die in (overcharged Shot, Jade Winds, etc). For every other kind of pressure, like getting caught by smaller 1-2s CC's or conditions, it's far far far from a death sentence. Core D/P Thief is top tier survivability. For conditions and or smaller CC that won't require a Shadowstep, if you're alive at any point, just press withdraw, walk away in stealth and leap more stealth. Shadow's Embrace is plenty of condition removal so you will never die from conditions while you have Withdraw up.

Normally you dont use long cast-time attacks against a thief after ccing them. Steal is a factor, plus its redundant since once thief is locked down, they die to a stiff breeze. But still, if the thief uses steal because otherwise he is finished after your second CC, you are still in a highly favoured position. The best the thief can do is run away at that point. And he wont be able to reengage for about a minute, because his defenses are all down.

This scenario doesn't exist because you don't just walk up to a thief and CC them. They're either in stealth, or about to stealth. The scenario you are giving an example for would only be true if WIthdraw wasn't an instant reset button.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The current thief build is D/P thief. Its only stunbreak is Shadowstep (which is also its only way to clear conditions quickly, so put either on the thief and the other becomes a death sentence). Other builds use 2, but again, one is shadowstep. None use 3. At best you could say the average is slightly above 1.

Save Shadowstep for large CC's that you would die in (overcharged Shot, Jade Winds, etc). For every other kind of pressure, like getting caught by smaller 1-2s CC's or conditions, it's far far far from a death sentence. Core D/P Thief is top tier survivability. For conditions and or smaller CC that won't require a Shadowstep, if you're alive at any point, just press withdraw, walk away in stealth and leap more stealth. Shadow's Embrace is plenty of condition removal so you will never die from conditions while you have Withdraw up.

1-2s CCs are a death sentence. And no, Core D/P Thief is anything but top tier survivability. Of course not, its not supposed to be. Its a burst build that doesnt want to fight prolonged fights because it cant. You have no defenses, almost no sustain (you dont run Shadow's Rejuvination after all, so all you have are the 1k heal from mug, and the 500 heal from shadow siphoning and 300 heal from venom, except you use up the venom pretty quickly anyway.). And no, Shadows Embrace is anything but plenty of condition removal. It removes one condition every 3 seconds. The average condi burst contains 3 or 4 conditions and kills you in 2 ticks. You wont even live to see the second condition cleared. No, you will always die from conditions while you have withdraw up if you dont have shadowstep up.

Normally you dont use long cast-time attacks against a thief after ccing them. Steal is a factor, plus its redundant since once thief is locked down, they die to a stiff breeze. But still, if the thief uses steal because otherwise he is finished after your second CC, you are still in a highly favoured position. The best the thief can do is run away at that point. And he wont be able to reengage for about a minute, because his defenses are all down.

This scenario doesn't exist because you don't just walk up to a thief and CC them. They're either in stealth, or about to stealth. The scenario you are giving an example for would only be true if WIthdraw wasn't an instant reset button.

Oh no, the scenario doesnt exist because a thief would run as soon as they run out of stunbreakers. Or even before that. If they stuck around to fight, then theyre not in stealth, nor are they going to stealth. Even if they were to stealth, thats still good for you, you know their immediate location, and you can unload heavy damage on them. Withdraw is hardly an instant reset button. The thief has to actively run away to reset.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The current thief build is D/P thief. Its only stunbreak is Shadowstep (which is also its only way to clear conditions quickly, so put either on the thief and the other becomes a death sentence). Other builds use 2, but again, one is shadowstep. None use 3. At best you could say the average is slightly above 1.

Save Shadowstep for large CC's that you would die in (overcharged Shot, Jade Winds, etc). For every other kind of pressure, like getting caught by smaller 1-2s CC's or conditions, it's far far far from a death sentence. Core D/P Thief is top tier survivability. For conditions and or smaller CC that won't require a Shadowstep, if you're alive at any point, just press withdraw, walk away in stealth and leap more stealth. Shadow's Embrace is plenty of condition removal so you will never die from conditions while you have Withdraw up.

1-2s CCs

are

a death sentence. And no, Core D/P Thief is anything

but

top tier survivability. Of course not, its not supposed to be. Its a burst build that doesnt want to fight prolonged fights because it cant. You have no defenses, almost no sustain (you dont run Shadow's Rejuvination after all, so all you have are the 1k heal from mug, and the 500 heal from shadow siphoning and 300 heal from venom, except you use up the venom pretty quickly anyway.). And no, Shadows Embrace is anything but plenty of condition removal. It removes one condition every 3 seconds. The average condi burst contains 3 or 4 conditions and kills you in 2 ticks. You wont even live to see the second condition cleared. No, you will always die from conditions while you have withdraw up if you dont have shadowstep up.

Normally you dont use long cast-time attacks against a thief after ccing them. Steal is a factor, plus its redundant since once thief is locked down, they die to a stiff breeze. But still, if the thief uses steal because otherwise he is finished after your second CC, you are still in a highly favoured position. The best the thief can do is run away at that point. And he wont be able to reengage for about a minute, because his defenses are all down.

This scenario doesn't exist because you don't just walk up to a thief and CC them. They're either in stealth, or about to stealth. The scenario you are giving an example for would only be true if WIthdraw wasn't an instant reset button.

Oh no, the scenario doesnt exist because a thief would run as soon as they run out of stunbreakers. Or even before that. If they stuck around to fight, then theyre not in stealth, nor are they going to stealth. Even if they were to stealth, thats still good for you, you know their immediate location, and you can unload heavy damage on them. Withdraw is hardly an instant reset button. The thief has to actively run away to reset.

Agree to disagree on literally everything then!

Just to clarify: To do a Thief's job, thief has top tier survivability. I did not mean Thief can stand on a point with top tier survivability, like you feel the need to explain

[Rickster.8752]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Rickster.8752" said:I'd like to see feline grace get a cooldown of 10 seconds or something. Perma vigor from a minor trait is a joke. For a minor trait it is way too good.

I would also like to see shadowstep get a CD increase and shortbow 5 get an init increase.

Lastly I think infiltrators strike needs to be nerfed.

Pretty much all of those are non-starters. Shadowsteps CD is already incredibly long for a stunbreak, and shortbow 5 is so integral to thief that any attempt to nerf it has to come with

major

compensation buffs. And Im talking damage buffs of more than 30% accross the board level of major.

Ok then just lower the condition removal from 3 to 1 then.Shortbow 5 is too good. It could be given 1 extra init cost and its still really strong and thief can still do their role. Problem is currently thieves role is to "win the game" which they can do better than any other class due to how OP it is.

I would also like to see stealth capped at 3 seconds.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The current thief build is D/P thief. Its only stunbreak is Shadowstep (which is also its only way to clear conditions quickly, so put either on the thief and the other becomes a death sentence). Other builds use 2, but again, one is shadowstep. None use 3. At best you could say the average is slightly above 1.

Save Shadowstep for large CC's that you would die in (overcharged Shot, Jade Winds, etc). For every other kind of pressure, like getting caught by smaller 1-2s CC's or conditions, it's far far far from a death sentence. Core D/P Thief is top tier survivability. For conditions and or smaller CC that won't require a Shadowstep, if you're alive at any point, just press withdraw, walk away in stealth and leap more stealth. Shadow's Embrace is plenty of condition removal so you will never die from conditions while you have Withdraw up.

1-2s CCs

are

a death sentence. And no, Core D/P Thief is anything

but

top tier survivability. Of course not, its not supposed to be. Its a burst build that doesnt want to fight prolonged fights because it cant. You have no defenses, almost no sustain (you dont run Shadow's Rejuvination after all, so all you have are the 1k heal from mug, and the 500 heal from shadow siphoning and 300 heal from venom, except you use up the venom pretty quickly anyway.). And no, Shadows Embrace is anything but plenty of condition removal. It removes one condition every 3 seconds. The average condi burst contains 3 or 4 conditions and kills you in 2 ticks. You wont even live to see the second condition cleared. No, you will always die from conditions while you have withdraw up if you dont have shadowstep up.

Normally you dont use long cast-time attacks against a thief after ccing them. Steal is a factor, plus its redundant since once thief is locked down, they die to a stiff breeze. But still, if the thief uses steal because otherwise he is finished after your second CC, you are still in a highly favoured position. The best the thief can do is run away at that point. And he wont be able to reengage for about a minute, because his defenses are all down.

This scenario doesn't exist because you don't just walk up to a thief and CC them. They're either in stealth, or about to stealth. The scenario you are giving an example for would only be true if WIthdraw wasn't an instant reset button.

Oh no, the scenario doesnt exist because a thief would run as soon as they run out of stunbreakers. Or even before that. If they stuck around to fight, then theyre not in stealth, nor are they going to stealth. Even if they were to stealth, thats still good for you, you know their immediate location, and you can unload heavy damage on them. Withdraw is hardly an instant reset button. The thief has to actively run away to reset.

Agree to disagree on literally everything then!

Just to clarify: To do a Thief's job, thief has top tier survivability. I did not mean Thief can stand on a point with top tier survivability, like you feel the need to explain

There isnt anything to disagree with here, youre simply wrong. And this sentence "To do a Thief's job, thief has top tier survivability" doesnt make much sense. A build that is designed to be able to burst and otherwise run away is good at running away? Like yeah, thats what its designed to do.