Downstate supports skillful gameplay and the side that has less poeple to prevent snowball

AliamRationem.5172 · February 19, 2020

@Anput.4620 said:
@"Jayden Reese.9542" said:Well don't heal the rev to full and that ranger is terrible except for timely kb's and you tanky af. I think that rando drake mob att you turned the tide. I guess you are skilled tho only possible answer cause I bet necro downstate never won any fight for you. Anyone can find random situations to fit their narrative like your mount crusade that lasted for months

Nope, necro downstate hasn't won me any fight 1v1.

Can you give me ANY situation where downstate benefits the outnumbered party more than the outnumber when played correctly? As you are saying i am talking anecdotes. How did downstate benefit me as much as it did them here?

If they are both terrible then why do i deserve to lose due to a crutch mechanic lol. Numbers>Skill in this game.

Mounts also still affect in-combat balance in negative ways,

always benefiting the outnumber ofcoarse

.

I roam solo a lot in WvW and I tend toward side-node duelist type roles in PvP. So, I'm totally on board with your dislike of downstate mechanics. They are mostly useless to me and quite advantageous to my enemies, who frequently outnumber me!

Having said that, you did ask the question: "Can you give me ANY situation where downstate benefits the outnumbered party..."

Watch videos of skilled, coordinated roamers. They will communicate in voice chat when they're going down and coordinate a response (CC, revival skills, etc.). Just as greater numbers are an advantage, so too is greater skill. This is obviously not applicable in 1vx, but for everything else there is definitely a way for a smaller force to capitalize on downstate mechanics to overcome a greater force.

Obtena.7952 · February 19, 2020

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Hold on a second.. serious question here: You don’t play the mode.

Can't be that serious. You don't know what I do. On the other hand for someone who eagerly attacks me for no reason, you sure do have the same ideas about the OP's position as I do. I suppose if you consider yourself an expert in the topic compared to someone that you believe doesn't play the mode, the bar you set isn't actually that high to know what you are talking about for WvW. I will consider that an endorsement.

It's weird you are so threatened by what I have to say, considering you think so little of my opinion. You should get over your obsession of me.

ArchonWing.9480 · February 19, 2020

Meh, it really has nothing to do with skill and lol @ people calling OP bad.

it's just that it makes no sense to balance for these scenarios. In the grand scheme of wvw, small scale fights just aren't what we should be balancing, esp lopsided ones.

Slick.7164 · February 19, 2020

Good Point

Anput.4620 · February 19, 2020

@God.2708 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Jayden Reese.9542 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Jayden Reese.9542 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.
The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.
If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.

If the opponents are so weak then why don't they deserve to lose?

Also what's wrong with the build? It's a very good build, normally i take spectral armor over locust signet though but i was testing that. You still haven't really given justification for downstate or how its fair, i am not asking why i couldn't deal with downstate, i'm asking by what logic, do i, as the outnumbered have to deal with that? Why is this still in the game as is?

My burst damage comes from lifeblast with fear+dread, i tried to apply CC and cleave but i got interrupted multiple times on things like fear.

By the simple logic, that you build has nothing to deal with the downstate mechanic. You opted to go more tanky and have more sustain, which gave you a direct advantage in the match-up and actually allowed you to get downstate's. It's similar to players complaining about conditions, but not taking any condition cleanse or protection against conditions.

Your build has no downstate pressure, meaning the moment opponents get the chance to utilize that mechanic, your build falls apart. At the same time you made serious mistakes in skill use and adjusting for your builds lack of downstate pressure, which could have been made up with multiple skills in your build, but you opted to simply stay in shroud and burst the downstate player with your mediocre damage.

@Anput.4620 said:
@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@God.2708 said:
@"Ubi.4136" said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

I love this reasoning that the outnumbered player who downs someone from the larger group is the "unskilled" one. No, it's one player vs 2+, with how mechanics work in this game, the 2+ should always win, however they were not very good and went down, the only skill they showed was pressing F to get another chance to win, and then another, and another.

Not saying the OP played perfectly, however the expatiation in defense of downed state is that the outnumbered player should play the perfect build with perfect rotations and ALWAYS have a CC or stab available. However there is no expectation of the side who already has a numbers advantage and some how removing downstate is unfair to them? Why? Because downstate is removed from everyone, not just the group with greater numbers, but the out numbered players as well. So if it doesn't favor the larger group, why is removing it such a bad thing? The reason is it's a crutch for players who run in teams or groups, those who have no idea of how to stay alive and allows them to get away with spam game play, just like the ranger in the video above.

The example is that downstate did nothing for him, however it won the other two the fight, as it gave them 3 chances, that is what the video shows. Can you still win the fights? Yes, you can, however you not only have to out play the other team but you also have to counter a mechanic that favors that larger side.

I will say it again, downstate in PvE is fine, if not expected, downstate in sPvP is also fine, as it's a forced even number fight, however in WvW that is almost never the case. People still claim that downstate does not favor the larger group, expect they forget we have had no downstate events, and it showed without question that it does, in large ways favor the larger group. It was so refreshing the last event, because 8 people pushing into 15+ people was actually a thing again. It was amazing to solo run into 5 people and watch them in the first 5 seconds blow ALL of their CDs on me and picking them off one at a time as they had no idea what to do after spamming everything on their bar, because why bother being good, if that one player downs one of your group, you just spam "F".

If you actually are good, why are you going down when you outnumber the other player 2 to 1? Not only did he out play the rev, but he outplayed him while being Pew Pewed by a ranger, that ranger was just spamming skills, I mean he was really just face rolling, how many times in the fight did they use #5 on LB and then swap weapons before it even cast? Solo 1vs1, both rev and ranger would have lost, and even together, without downstate, they would have lost, the ONLY thing that won them that fight was downstate saving the rev 3 times. How many chances do yall think the side with the number advantage should get to try again?

Leave downstate and just remove the ability to spam "F" while in combat, that will fix 90% of the issues.

Thank you so much for this comment, i really, really don't get how what you laid out is hard to understand for so many poeple.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So what you are saying is, the inherent numbers advantage which should guarantee the outnumbered sides win, should be dropped in favor of which side gets the jump or has the better engage? So, when will you decide to re-balance the entire game around that new approach then? Because currently, that puts certain classes at severe advantages.

The inherent numbers advantage isn't downstate,

it is having more poeple

. There is zero justification here still from your side, downstate isn't integral at all to combat, it is simply a crutch, in other games poeple die when they are killed and they are fine.

You literally left out half the things from my response to TinkTinkPOOF.9201 which address where and how downstate affects builds.

@Anput.4620 said:What did i do wrong here though? I tried both cc and cleave, what else could i have done? Necromancer stab? Once again, the main point is why i even have to go through this terrible mechanic when they already have 2 poeple, where is the balancing factor/justification here?

Change your build? That ever come to mind? Your build is designed with heavy enemy condi pressure (aka opponents pressure, not yours) and self sustain in mind (that's literally what all your signets are for), against 2 power builds. Your build alone was already a disadvantage against those 2. But hey, let's pretend that was not the case. You got LUCKY, just not lucky enough. That's all.

What you did wrong? Not understand what your build is good at and what not.

The only problem here is the knee-jerk reaction to call for re-balance of the game, when the main issue you blame for your loss is not even the core issue to blame.

You are talking over the point, why do we have a mechanic that the outnumber can utilise better? That's the topic here, i don't see any reason why we need that in the game.

Can you give me ANY reason they should have an extra advantage for being 2 over me being 1 besides being 2 in itself balancing-wise?

The point is you know downstate is in this game. You know downing someone is not killing them yet you chose to not account for that in your build in an open world map where anyone can show up. Rare are uninterrupted even skilled 1 v 1s and that's what you seem built for. You got a long uninterrupted 1 v 2. This thread wouldn't exist is someone on a warclaw showed up and killed the down but because 2 ave players beat you downstate is a problem. A skilled player accounts for downstate. A skilled player adjusted to mounts. A skilled player functions well in every situation zerg small scale 1v1 1vx w/e. You said you got wrecked by 2 of the same class later on which means that fight lasted so long because they were of a low skill level. That is another wildcard. In no downstate week all you skilled groups roll out in 8 man with 2 ele scrapper fb scourge and 3 revs or some kitten talking how skilled they are when you roll 15 but it's always 15 pugs it's not like you rolled 15 PB or HoB. Just like 15 PB or Hob won't roll 30 Flux but they sure as hell will roll pugs. Random guilds chosen. Learn adjust play better build better stop complaining about stuff that's here to stay and the game is built around.

Again,

why is downstate still in the game when its this garbage of a mechanic

, youre skimming over the point.

I didn't create the game. It is there because anet wants it there. The game is built around it. Why can't I have 30 skills on my bar like ff14. Why can't I have 60 like wow. Why can't healers heal or tankers tank and keep aggro or why is stealth not half speed like most games. Why does mez exist. Why can't i use mounts and pets with stat boosts in pvp like garbo Bless let you. Why did rift steal wow's everything. idk man. It's a mechanic in the game. FF14 just as dumb pvp you need like 8 dps to focus down a healer. Eso was aoe spam fest group worst then wvw. The answer to your question is every game is different and has diff aspects that's it

Because it is a flawed mechanic, Anet being bad at balancing isn't an excuse for the bad balancing itself.

In any other PvP game these kinds of BS things just aren't there.

People have iterated multiple times: downstate is not imbalanced, you are bad. Go sit in the corner and think about what you have done.

If downstate is not inbalanced then why can't anyone give me a situation where it benefits the smaller group?

I see zero argument and only insults.

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.
The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.
If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.

I love when players try to link inability to a game problem. So satisfying.

@Anput.4620 said:
@Jayden Reese.9542 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.
The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.
If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.