Power vs Condi effectiveness is now balanced

[Cyninja.2954]

I love how people argue that condi is in check.

I wonder when most will realize that most players have not adapted their builds to full condi setups yet. Think condi is tough to deal with now? Wait 2 weeks.

That said, yes power still works, it always will work, because when you spike damage on players, they will drop near instantly (unless power gets nerfed into the ground) no matter how strong power is. Condi will never seem as strong since players will always take a while to drop, even if they already are dead 5 seconds before (which most are right now UNLESS cleansed by dedicated supports).

Condi builds unleash their strength in longer engagements. The question is how does the fight end overall, and right now, unless your group/squad runs enough condi cleanse supports (aka at least 1 scrapper or tempest per group), you will run out of condi cleanse long before the condi builds run out of damage or get pressured in a trade with power builds after the initial engage.

Give it 2 weeks for more condi builds with toughness to roll into the mainstream, then let's have this discussion again.

[nthmetal.9652]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Condi builds unleash their strength in longer engagements. The question is how does the fight end overall, and right now, unless your group/squad runs enough condi cleanse supports (aka at least 1 scrapper or tempest per group), you will run out of condi cleanse long before the condi builds run out of damage or get pressured in a trade with power builds after the initial engage.

Give it 2 weeks for more condi builds with toughness to roll into the mainstream, then let's have this discussion again.

This is exactly what I would expect. And from what I've seen, it looks like neither the condi creators, nor scrappers really run out of cooldowns when creating or cleansing condis. How does this then relate to skillfull play?I guess the skill and cooldown component devs were playing at in their design for the patch as displayed in the ahead-of-time discussion of the back-then upcoming changes relate then mostly to CC and stunbreak. CCd people cannot cleanse, rest even longer in condi bombs. Stunbreaks have mostly been upped in cooldown making them less readily available.

What worries me about this upcoming meta is that the ideal zerg composition sounds something like this:

• FB
• Scr / Tmp
• Scg
• Scg
• someone who provides CC - could be Spb, Rev in every 2nd group
• someone who provides some power damage in every 2nd group

Most, if not all can be with quite tanky stats. The Condi ppl only really need condi damage, as condis still get cleared a lot (until they don't, but even then you don't really need longer running condis, you probably just stack more of them). The support people probably go full minstrel or something similar anyways. The CC people don't do damage anyways either, so you can as well go full tank. So only power damage ppl might be less tanky ...

[Cyninja.2954]

@nthmetal.9652 said:Most, if not all can be with quite tanky stats.

Exactly.

Let's wait a few weeks and see how viable power builds are when condi builds with toughness start dominating the setups.

@nthmetal.9652 said:The Condi ppl only really need condi damage, as condis still get cleared a lot (until they don't, but even then you don't really need longer running condis, you probably just stack more of them). The support people probably go full minstrel or something similar anyways.

Precisely, fights will be dictated by which groups has the better condi versus cleanse setup.

@nthmetal.9652 said:

• FB
• Scr / Tmp
• Scg
• Scg
• someone who provides CC - could be Spb, Rev in every 2nd group
• someone who provides some power damage in every 2nd group

Pretty much this.

Also condi rev with mallyx provides resistance as well as great cc on his Call to Anguish on top of dwarv stability and damage reduction (if running dwarv/mallyx) potentially with alacrity on renegade, or might/fury/swiftness as herald (though without dwarv or mallyx in that case). Seems like a strong pick currently for one of the slots.

Warriors might run a defensive support setup (similar to a few months past right after the warhorn changes) to help with condi management, healing and in general make use of their 10 player skills. Warrior has lost a lot of viability on power now that they can not self-sustainable outside of group on berserker.

@nthmetal.9652 said:The CC people don't do damage anyways either, so you can as well go full tank. So only power damage ppl might be less tanky ...

Yes, and once those berserker power damage builds start dropping like flies since they are the only builds without toughness in a full squad while condis are flying left and right, these forums will be up in arms again.

[Dawdler.8521]

One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

Hm.

[MrForz.1953]

Meh. Whatever people call balanced, it's such a heated debate all the time with various situations displayed as examples I suppose it's fine where it is.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Those who adapt survive.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:gasp ADAPT TO OVERCOME

Okay we get it. Don't flap that word around too much though, it's broad, and it might as well mean play Firebrand/Necro and maybe Revanant, that's adapting too.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dawdler.8521 said:One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

Hm.

1 flaw in your approach.

Those 2 condi zergs meeting aren't affected, true.

That condi zerg meeting a power zerg though, different story, or?

You don't take toughness against condi, you take toughness to mitigate the opposing power damage.

Also toughness is useful, else supports would not be running minstrel but more offensive stat combinations.

[Edu.6984]

@Dawdler.8521 said:One of the arguments for going damage before has always been that toughness does next to nothing.

But for some reason, that argument is apparently thrown out the window when it comes to all these apparent condi bunkers about to dominate the new meta consisting of the exact same same classes as before, despite condi literally bypassing toughness so that a condi zerg fighting another condi zerg has no use for it.

Hm.

Offensive stats tend to be better than defensive ones, but that does not mean defensive stats are useless. Right now condi users can go Traillblaser stats having all condi offensive stats + some defensive ones. For power users there is no stat combination that gives all direct dmg offensive stats + toughness+vit.

Also, in zergs most people rely in aoe cleansing coming from other players such as minstrel FB. In small scale condi becomes way deadlier since most havock/roaming groups don't have pocket healers around.

[Dawdler.8521]

@xDudisx.5914 said:Right now condi users can go Traillblaser stats having all condi offensive stats + some defensive ones.Do you know why? Because that is the only way they've been able to come close to compete with power... And power still wins at killing people faster the more you stack.

[displayname.8315]

So basically you need to play well as a group with classes composed of healers, debuffers, buffers, DPS. You have to have a little skill and good timing, good positioning.

Trying to find something to complain about but as always its just the 1-push rallybots that kill the action full stop.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I wonder when most will realize that most players have not adapted their builds to full condi setups yet. Think condi is tough to deal with now? Wait 2 weeks.

I think your statement falls both ways, people are figuring out their condi builds, power builds, and a new rise in CC builds. So it's going to be a mess for a while even before ANet applies the next changes. Have 23 WvW toons/builds and so far haven't found one that will just stay as it was so far but not certain it's the build or the fluxuations or rotation changes so far. Have 1 so far reset to go.

[Jski.6180]

Not even close power dmg just dose dmg (it use to be hard cc and dmg but that gone now) where condi do added effects often tide to trait lines when you apply one condi you get another or you get a bonuses effect. There also condis that out right have added effect then just the dmg like poison.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I wonder when most will realize that most players have not adapted their builds to full condi setups yet. Think condi is tough to deal with now? Wait 2 weeks.

I think your statement falls both ways, people are figuring out their condi builds, power builds, and a new rise in CC builds. So it's going to be a mess for a while even before ANet applies the next changes. Have 23 WvW toons/builds and so far haven't found one that will just stay as it was so far but not certain it's the build or the fluxuations or rotation changes so far. Have 1 so far reset to go.

Sure, with 1 difference:The last meta was power mostly, most damage builds were running full berserker. You can't go more power than that.

Condi was near non existant, thus you only had toughness on support characters. This would change in a condi meta.

Now TTK is up, healing is down, direct damage is down since cc skills don't do damage any longer and cleanses are mandatory.

Now if we summarize:

• power damage has no way of going up
• direct damage overall is down
• fight duration is up
• healing is down

All of that favors condition builds which can now stack toughness while extending the new TTK for power and being unaffected themselves.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of that favors condition builds which can now stack toughness while extending the new TTK for power and being unaffected themselves.

Condi builds were already stacking toughness, they had to counter power. Now if you are arguing they can stack less than they do they will be taking more damage even with the power adjustment and becoming more glassy than before. Plus I keep seeing people saying condi didn't take any adjustments which is a false statement. I play all classes and builds I am not seeing any so far that did not take a hit, power or condi, but still have a lot to play/review, downside to altism.

Edit: Re-reading, don't get me wrong I am on the fence on the balance between the two post patch, think it's still to early to say personally.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of that favors condition builds which can now stack toughness while extending the new TTK for power and being unaffected themselves.

Condi builds were already stacking toughness, they had to counter power. Now if you are arguing they can stack less than they do they will be taking more damage even with the power adjustment and becoming more glassy than before. Plus I keep seeing people saying condi didn't take any adjustments which is a false statement. I play all classes and builds I am not seeing any so far that did not take a hit, power or condi, but still have a lot to play/review, downside to altism.

Edit: Re-reading, don't get me wrong I am on the fence on the balance between the two post patch, think it's still to early to say personally.

Which condi builds? Which condi builds were present in the last meta? Besides maybe burnguard as troll build?

There was no widespread condi builds in the past meta, that's the issue.

EDIT:and just to be clear, I'm actually fine with a while of condi meta. I personally switch between multiple roles in the roster and do enjoy dealing with conditions. It's just when a meta swings this clearly (first PUG commanders on EU drop condi and heal ascended food instead of power and heal), and people still go on about how things are supposedly balanced (which begs the question, can this ever really be balanced?), I'm scratching my head going: wtf are you talking about?

EDIT2:and a small FYI for people who stack full trailblazer: you're doing it wrong. You don't stack full trailblazer, those are a ton of wasted stats in WvW. You take maybe a bit to get some additional condi duration in case you hit stray players who do not get cleansed. Otherwise you assume condis will get cleansed, so you stack condition damage, toughness and precision, maybe some vita if you are on a low hit point class. Wasting offensive stats on vitality and expertise is a big no-no.

[phreeak.1023]

Was just testing for some fun anf with bad rotation but could run into an blob with a trailblazer/dire mix condi renegade and could do 100k burst condi damage till i was full down (alone, no grp for support) and had still a lot condi damge after i went down.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

I believe they are almost as balanced as ever, but power still is more effective than conditioning from my perspective of running an 5-9 sized havoc squad tues and thurs.Condi intensity basically got halved for increased duration. If I have 22k hps on any character, that character usually would take 22k damage from power much sooner than 22k from condi. Only thing you have to watch are the few condi spikes from some classes like burn guards for example. One good cleanse there is just as good as a well timed invuln or block or no damage skill. I don't see why people get so ruffled.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

@Jski.6180 said:There also condis that out right have added effect then just the dmg like poison.

Which is nothing new and should not surprise anyone. Plus there are many more traits that are tied to power damage as opposed to condition.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of that favors condition builds which can now stack toughness while extending the new TTK for power and being unaffected themselves.

Condi builds were already stacking toughness, they had to counter power. Now if you are arguing they can stack less than they do they will be taking more damage even with the power adjustment and becoming more glassy than before. Plus I keep seeing people saying condi didn't take any adjustments which is a false statement. I play all classes and builds I am not seeing any so far that did not take a hit, power or condi, but still have a lot to play/review, downside to altism.

Edit: Re-reading, don't get me wrong I am on the fence on the balance between the two post patch, think it's still to early to say personally.

Which condi builds? Which condi builds were present in the last meta? Besides maybe burnguard as troll build?

There was no widespread condi builds in the past meta, that's the issue.

EDIT:and just to be clear, I'm actually fine with a while of condi meta. I personally switch between multiple roles in the roster and do enjoy dealing with conditions. It's just when a meta swings this clearly (first PUG commanders on EU drop condi and heal ascended food instead of power and heal), and people still go on about how things are supposedly balanced (which begs the question, can this ever really be balanced?), I'm scratching my head going: kitten are you talking about?

EDIT2:and a small FYI for people who stack full trailblazer: you're doing it wrong. You don't stack full trailblazer, those are a ton of wasted stats in WvW. You take maybe a bit to get some additional condi duration in case you hit stray players who do not get cleansed. Otherwise you assume condis will get cleansed, so you stack condition damage, toughness and precision, maybe some vita if you are on a low hit point class. Wasting offensive stats on vitality and expertise is a big no-no.

If you don't think there were viable builds for condi classes before I will just stop there. If anything I think you have me now more leaning we might be in a closer spot. People are going to need learn if you die in full glass that's on you. Pack cleanses, get more vit.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of that favors condition builds which can now stack toughness while extending the new TTK for power and being unaffected themselves.

Condi builds were already stacking toughness, they had to counter power. Now if you are arguing they can stack less than they do they will be taking more damage even with the power adjustment and becoming more glassy than before. Plus I keep seeing people saying condi didn't take any adjustments which is a false statement. I play all classes and builds I am not seeing any so far that did not take a hit, power or condi, but still have a lot to play/review, downside to altism.

Edit: Re-reading, don't get me wrong I am on the fence on the balance between the two post patch, think it's still to early to say personally.

Which condi builds? Which condi builds were present in the last meta? Besides maybe burnguard as troll build?

There was no widespread condi builds in the past meta, that's the issue.

EDIT:and just to be clear, I'm actually fine with a while of condi meta. I personally switch between multiple roles in the roster and do enjoy dealing with conditions. It's just when a meta swings this clearly (first PUG commanders on EU drop condi and heal ascended food instead of power and heal), and people still go on about how things are supposedly balanced (which begs the question, can this ever really be balanced?), I'm scratching my head going: kitten are you talking about?

EDIT2:and a small FYI for people who stack full trailblazer: you're doing it wrong. You don't stack full trailblazer, those are a ton of wasted stats in WvW. You take maybe a bit to get some additional condi duration in case you hit stray players who do not get cleansed. Otherwise you assume condis will get cleansed, so you stack condition damage, toughness and precision, maybe some vita if you are on a low hit point class. Wasting offensive stats on vitality and expertise is a big no-no.

If you don't think there were viable builds for condi classes before I will just stop there. If anything I think you have me now more leaning we might be in a closer spot. People are going to need learn if you die in full glass that's on you. Pack cleanses, get more vit.

No I don't think there were meta spots for condi builds. Everything works in publics, people run celestial too.

Meta was pure power and literally EVERY fight guild was runing full power setups. The vast majority of players were running power in squads.

Last meta was: power rev, power scourge, power elementalist, power reaper, power warrior, power scrapper, power thief.

Those were the meta builds and almost all of them werr run on full berserker.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Cyninja.2954 said:No I don't think there were meta spots for condi builds. Everything works in publics, people run celestial too.

Meta was pure power and literally EVERY fight guild was runing full power setups. The vast majority of players were running power in squads.

Last meta was: power rev, power scourge, power elementalist, power reaper, power warrior, power scrapper, power thief.

Those were the meta builds and almost all of them werr run on full berserker.

If this is what you are basing it on, is everyone you know now all running condi or are you seeing a mix? If all then I see where you are coming from, if its a mix then we are evening things out. It's still early but I haven't seen any people with power builds shelf theirs yet. Again still testing myself.

[claytonmorby.3751]

I voted balanced, but I really should've put undecided. In solo/small groups encounters I definitely feel condi is stronger. Bigger groups seems more than capable of shrugging off both power and condi damage now though. I think in the coming weeks certain builds might start to really come out of the woodwork and change things.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@MrForz.1953 said:Meh. Whatever people call balanced, it's such a heated debate all the time with various situations displayed as examples I suppose it's fine where it is.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Those who adapt survive.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

gasp

ADAPT TO OVERCOME

Okay we get it. Don't flap that word around too much though, it's broad, and it might as well mean play Firebrand/Necro and maybe Revanant, that's adapting too.

You are right, that is considered adapting....whats teh point you are trying to make, other than im right?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm still undecided, mostly because I'm not sure how things will look after people have adapted.

Now, because this isn't explained well here, what is meant by 'adapting" is changing the foods, runes, and sigils in order to deal with the new threats. A few notes:

• Peppercorn food is out. Power damage was nerfed by more than 33%, since we lost damage on CC. You'll only be wanting to take peppercorn if your build already has a lot of cleanses on it. Clove foods' -20% condition duration is now more valuable, while Sesame and Cilantro still make for good general alternatives A budget version of defensive food is Loaf of Saffron Bread, which is -20% damage while stunned and -20% condi duration.
• Runes are going to have to change.. For condi builds you have Antitoxen, Sunless, and Orr. Those decrease incoming condi duration by 25%, which when combined with clove foods comes to -45% total. For power builds, there's only one offensive option: Hoelbrak. It has -10% duration, which isn't much, but it also has -10% condi damage. For general defensive options, there's Melandru (goes well with Saffron Bread for -40% duration and -40% damage while stunned), Resistance, and Nature's Bounty. Stars is available as well, especially if you want to deal with weakness/cripple/chill, but it adds only a few points to all stats, making it somewhat insignificant for most professions.
• If you're going for cleansing, there's a few more sigil and rune choices you can make. Sigil of Generosity and Cleansing are good. For runes, you have leadership (3 cleanses on elite, all stats), Water and Nature's Bounty (cleanse on heal, heal power), Nightmare (transfers, condition damage), and Lyssa (converts 3 into boons on elite, precision).

This is... sort of why I'm undecided. Well, mostly because I can't play right now. But consider this: I main a Marshalls Ele in WvW. If I were to take Orr runes (-25%), Clove-Spiced Coq Au Vin (-20%), and equip the signet of water (-20%), then I'm cutting down condi duration by 65%. At that point, what do I have to fear? Ele is not an unusual example here: Many classes can stack on so much negative duration and so many cleanses that a condi build would stand no chance against them.

I'm not convinced that all of the people losing to condi are losing after stacking themselves against it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No I don't think there were meta spots for condi builds. Everything works in publics, people run celestial too.

Meta was pure power and literally EVERY fight guild was runing full power setups. The vast majority of players were running power in squads.

Last meta was: power rev, power scourge, power elementalist, power reaper, power warrior, power scrapper, power thief.

Those were the meta builds and almost all of them werr run on full berserker.

If this is what you are basing it on, is everyone you know now all running condi or are you seeing a mix? If all then I see where you are coming from, if its a mix then we are evening things out. It's still early but I haven't seen any people with power builds shelf theirs yet. Again still testing myself.

Okay, in this case I have to yield. Current internal setups, at least for us, use heavy condi pressure with power damage for finishing (with 9 available slots outside of the 6 supports for a 15 players setup, that's 3 condis and 4 power builds with 2 additional support builds on specific classes).

We do accommodate for the high condi pressure though by running more condi cleanse on 3 extra classes. Basically the entire support structure is setup against condi now with power to mop up. Aka we are running 8 support builds just to manage condis (versus 5-6 in the last meta) with power cleave for clean up.

How this translates to blob fights where you don't bring 2-3 supports per group only to survive, we shall see.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:snip

Sure that works, and especially food switching can make a difference. But if you are altering your entire rune, sigil and support setup only to counter condition damage, that's a lot of value dedicated to only that. Power builds this deeply reskilled will do near no damage against thoughness stacked classes. If only condi management runes/sigils become of value in wvw, I'd hardly call condition damage versus power balanced. But, as I've admitted to @TheGrimm.5624, it probably depends on which part of the game we look at: gvg, squad fights or even small scale.

[Jski.6180]

@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

@Jski.6180 said:There also condis that out right have added effect then just the dmg like poison.

Which is nothing new and should not surprise anyone. Plus there are many more traits that are tied to power damage as opposed to condition.

I get its not new but because power lost its dmg on hard cc puts power behind condi even though it was for the most part already behind.