Can we get an emergency ban on Necromancer and Firebrand in 2v2s?

Revolution.5409 · February 28, 2020

This will not solve the FB problem in other game modes, this specialization must be balanced.

I'm not an expert on Necro but I think the problem may be the Unholy Sanctuary CD.

@Axl.8924 said:
@Spellhunter.9675 said:There is at least 1 setup in 2v2 hardcounter both necro and fb. But as I can see most people can't even use their brains to figure this out. So guys, wait a couple of days and metabattle will tell you how to play the game.

People love to exaggerate and People just want to win regardless of how to fight build they don't want to think.

Yes the solution is to play another FB and Necro so you can win.

mortrialus.3062 · February 28, 2020

@Revolution.5409 said:This will not solve the FB problem in other game modes, this specialization must be balanced.

Never said it would. Firebrand and necro should be balanced on their own merits based on conquest. But in the meantime, in 2v2s they should be hard banned.

I mean seriously, can a better solution be theory crafted, tested, and implemented by the developers in the one month time frame the game mode is active? No. Hence why I call for the need for drastic measures like hard bans. This situation is the reason why things would immediately be banned in other, more well managed games like the examples I listed.

mortrialus.3062 · February 28, 2020

@Spellhunter.9675 said:There is at least 1 setup in 2v2 hardcounter both necro and fb. But as I can see most people can't even use their brains to figure this out. So guys, wait a couple of days and metabattle will tell you how to play the game.

The only thing I have seen come close to Firebrand+Necro is Firebrand+Condi Herald. And Condi herald will be eons less powerful without the firebrand.

Rickster.8752 · February 28, 2020

You know condi rev is the best spec right now?

astiao.7620 · February 28, 2020

If you read all the title post in all the pvp forum is like....( Ban the whole game then) lolBan, Warrior's CC , stuns and damage.Ban, Mesmer for have to many clones and be annoying class lol.Ban, Necro cuz they have demons and more demons.Ban. Ranger cuz the pets are pets and the (shit on my yard).Ban, Revenant beacuse they use plate and bow and have to many botons to press.Ban,Elementalis beacuse they do damage, heals summon weapons( now pets Pew pew ) and have to many utilitys to defence.Ban,Thief cuz they play dirty and have to many stealth and crit so much they can kill you before you can blink.OMG the Dev have to be crazy at this moment beacuse some cant win and accept the defeat.Sometime you win and sometime you lose a lot this is part of the game.O.0 Ban Gardian for ever lol.

Math.5123 · February 28, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

A better way to deal with it is disabling traits or skills that are problematic.Such as big symbols and signet of undeath.

Meteor.3720 · February 28, 2020

Suggesting a ban on a whole class (not even a specialisation) is just ridiculous ...

Even when mirage was at its peak obnoxiousness, Anet disabled a trait.

Posts like this do absolutely nothing and don't suggest any real changes to balance the meta. The chances of Anet listening to a post like this are 0. Try suggesting hotfixes or other balance discussion instead.

Wayne.6253 · February 28, 2020

i think is ridiculous a ban to a profession, when a nerf can be easly done.

DragonFury.6243 · February 28, 2020

anet didn't ban Mesmer when they where one shooting people or condi boom them with CI they eventually nerf them just wait for 2 weeks .every class got there time beaning broken eventually they get nerfed .

Burnfall.9573 · February 28, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:People have been wanting ranked 2v2s since this game was initially released. It has been eight years asking for an arena type mode. And now that we've finally gotten it 2v2's in the form of a miniseason comes with a balance patch that has left Firebrand and Necromancer in particular universally agreed to be over tuned.
Now obviously, balance is always going to based on a mix of Ranked and MAT performance. The main game mode is conquest and it always will be. I'm not asking for nerfs for builds in game modes that aren't the main mode. But while we wait for the balance team to observe and balance for conquest, can we get an emergency disable on Firebrand and Necromancer in ranked? People have wanted 2v2s for so long it'd be immensely disappointing for the developer team to finally release it only for the only viable team to be Firebrand+Necro.
Plenty of games and tournaments make no bones about outright banning things from play. If you were playing Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitively, Metaknight was banned. In Smash 4 Bayonetta was banned. If you played Street Fighter Old Sagat and Akuma were historic banned characters. During Street Fighter 4 Seth and Gouken had been banned. BlazBue Chronophantasma Kokonoe was banned. In Dragon Ball Fighter Z there are immense calls for GT Goku to be banned and a number of locals have done so. Every single TCG game from Magic, to Yu-Gi-Oh to Pokemon has banned cards.
Can we get an emergency disable on Firebrand and Necromancer in 2v2s for the love of god?

Mortrialus, none of those games mention have stealth. Wouldn't banning Stealth be top priority instead?

-Stealth is the most Toxic mechanic in the game since Guild Wars 2 release and continually being responsible for the game being unhealthy, non-competitive, unstable and for the low population= Ncsoft Earning Report...why not ban it for once?-

Pengu.7481 · February 28, 2020

wouldnt be the first time anet banned something clearly overperforming tho. didnt anet ban chrono from AT's when it was op broken bunker that could beat a 3v1? i seem to remember something about that, anyway correct me if im wrong

ZDragon.3046 · February 28, 2020

Lets be real though if mirage was not over nerfed with 1 dodge people would want it banned in your idea too.

I think a ban system where each team gets one vote for core or one of the elites is fair though thats a good way to balance 2v2 in general but you can only ban 1 thing per team. Meaning you will still likely get matched with something you still dont like fighting.

Cause truth be told anet cannot balance skills for 2v2 and expect the balance to hold up in 5v5 it simply wont work.You either need another skill split for 2v2 or a ban system that lets each team ban 1 elite,It should be optional though for people who dont feel they need to use it.Pick your profession, then pick from its elites, then start up the match maker. Get matched any thing except 1 thing you banned out

Ive seen this system work in other games

Khalisto.5780 · February 28, 2020

overallno nerfs shouldnt be made based on a 2v2 mode experience

while agree both classes are overtuned this is not their official mode

some weakness like low mobility don't get into play as much in this mode

this mind of post is prolly one of the things that was holding anet back in releasing new game modes

Trevor Boyer.6524 · February 28, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Axl.8924" said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

But yeah, I agree. Either FB/Necro needs to be hotfixed or disabled in 2v2. It's really ruining the release tbh. Every game is usually a FB + Necro or is always a Necro + Something. And then each round goes to the full length timer. And it's disappointing for the 2v2 release that this is pigeonholing everyone into basically running only FB/Necro, with very few exception situation to be able to run any other class.

But let's not forget to also point out that, those 2v2 maps are all very small and enclosed. That also makes FB/Necro inordinately powerful in those closed quarters. This is also a problem, but I figured I'd wait to elaborate on that one in a different thread.

Burnfall.9573 · February 28, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Axl.8924" said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

how about being in Necromancer Profession place.....having everything given to you and seeing it all taken from you all over again?

Axl.8924 · February 28, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Axl.8924" said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

Well truth be told some are ready with their pitchforks and a mob mentality.

I'm not saying all people are like that, but exaggerations are massive, and those its hard to take someone seriously asking for all abilities of a class without going into specific about what needs to be changed and what not. Do some stuff need changed? sure but gutting all life force for all necros and all source of lfie force gain? thats extremely harsh class destroying act which would leave it in the dumpster.

I called out people when they wanted class destroying stuff for Thief such as nerfing stealth into the ground, i called out when they wanted LB3 on ranger to benerfed and i call this out too.

Also asking to have one entire class exempt from ranked PVP Is really extreme, if you don't see it you are probably part of the problem too.

BTW trevor what do you main? just curious. You a ranger main?

Trevor Boyer.6524 · February 28, 2020

@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Axl.8924" said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

how about being in Necromancer Profession place.....being given everything and having it being taken all over again?

It certainly doesn't deserve to have everything be taken.

But it does not need the level of sustain that it has right now.

I've been running that build that I posted in the video, and even if my partner dies and I get focused hard 2v1, I can choose to make it as painful as possible for the opponents and just roll around 100% defensively and survive to the timer, and actually possibly still the win the match with fear CCs. It's stupid and broken. Way too much sustain.

But as Mortrialus was saying, this isn't really about Necro hate, it's about being able to play other classes that are not a Necromancer.

Halikus.1406 · February 28, 2020

What does it take for you ppl to understand that necro + guardian has ALWAYS been the best duo in the game...It doesn't matter how much you nerf necro, that btw spends 80% of it's time being average or trash and 20% being OP, necro and guardian will still be the best duo because... Guess what?The Game is NOT balanced for 2v2s and even if they decided to change that it still wont be so for a while.

No matter what necro build you also place with FB, it will still be a busted combo because of the broken support FB provides giving necro everything it lacks while he can just smash it's buttons without the care that it usually requires to play one. So if you want something nerfed... lets talk about firebrand first, because necro alone has always been food for any class / player with half a brain. If necro is still overperforming after that then we can talk about adjustments. But until then you ppl gotta get your priorities straight.

Halikus.1406 · February 28, 2020

The problem is more FB than necro, since they only got a slap on wrist. Even high level players agree that it's not remotely fun to play agaist FB and that it didn't get nearly enough nerfs. FB is a highly defining meta class in every game mode because of everything it brings to the table without even needing to spec into it and it's no different in PvP. If you cut fb support to acceptable levels, let's say tempest in HoT where you still required coordination, necro wont be carried so hard anymore making it more unforgiving than just going bunker and putting lich form to spam 1 while the FB keeps you safe from any harm.

Axl.8924 · February 28, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Burnfall.9573 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@"Axl.8924" said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

how about being in Necromancer Profession place.....being given everything and having it being taken all over again?

It certainly doesn't deserve to have everything be taken.

But it does not need the level of sustain that it has right now.

I've been running that build that I posted in the video, and even if my partner dies and I get focused hard 2v1, I can choose to make it as painful as possible for the opponents and just roll around 100% defensively and survive to the timer, and actually possibly still the win the match with fear CCs. It's stupid and broken. Way too much sustain.

But as Mortrialus was saying, this isn't really about Necro hate, it's about being able to play other classes that are not a Necromancer.

Small nerfs to life force gains and maybe to prot is acceptable, what's not is gutting every life force gen when we don't have any source of invulns or way to absorb said hit.

We cannot do invulns we got limited evades etc, so going too nuts and especially since our dps and boon corrupts got nerfed quite hard.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · February 28, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.

One class feeling excluded and left out is less of a problem than literally every other class feeling excluded and left out.

Are you not entertained?

First it was "Mirage main spotted"

Then it was "The Ranger police"

Now we have the "Let's act like it's not completely game breaking Necro defense force"

Well truth be told some are ready with their pitchforks and a mob mentality.

I'm not saying all people are like that, but exaggerations are massive, and those its hard to take someone seriously asking for all abilities of a class without going into specific about what needs to be changed and what not. Do some stuff need changed? sure but gutting all life force for all necros and all source of lfie force gain? thats extremely harsh class destroying act which would leave it in the dumpster.

I called out people when they wanted class destroying stuff for Thief such as nerfing stealth into the ground, i called out when they wanted LB3 on ranger to benerfed and i call this out too.

Also asking to have one entire class exempt from ranked PVP Is really extreme, if you don't see it you are probably part of the problem too.

BTW trevor what do you main? just curious. You a ranger main?

I normally main Ranger but it sucks in these 2v2 arenas, so I'm taking advantage of Core Necro while it lasts. Truth be told, I've always sort of half-mained Necro anyway from time to time, so I'm not a bad Necro player, but I don't possess the level of expertise on it that I do Ranger builds.

So here is what happened to me Day 1, coming from perspective of a Ranger player:

I log in the minute the patch drops, and play all day testing builds.
I hone in first on the "good" adaption for my Brawler/DPS spec, which can still kill a FB in about 2s if done correctly, but the opening for the burst is more like 4s of quickness to do it, rather than like 15s of stacked quickness, so it's harder to do now. The build can 1v1 and potentially win against anything post patch, just gotta be careful because it's not so strong when focused.
I then hone in on 2x different Druid builds, because you can't run just 1 any longer. You'd have to toggle between a Druid vs. Power and a Druid vs. Condi, depending on what's in the team against you, and if running Druid over Soulbeast would even be a good idea to begin with. Sometimes it is, but not usually. Soulbeast is just a lot stronger than Druid now. The removal of the stun break from CA and the lose in boon duration to bolster strength of the pack stability, put a serious hurting on Druid play.
That first day I was fighting other classes and doing great. Even the Druid builds seemed to be working.
Middle of day to end of day, I decided it was time to look into the Core Necro, which I knew was going to be strong. I already had a build in mind that I knew was going to be strong pre-patch. I tested it and boy oh boy was it just A LOT stronger than the Druid builds, in terms of what the Druid build is meant to do. I was kind of mad about it to be honest.
Day 2 rolls around. And overnight and into the day, of posting that video and talking to a ton of people and all of the Necromancer community sharing what we've learned, Super Godzilla Core Necro builds begin to appear. Everyone has their own variation, but they all share in common 2x things to be a Super Godzilla Necro: 1) Roll around like a boulder and not die, tossing AoE CCs at everything. 2) Suddenly shape shift into a God Lich that can face tank bully for the win with enormous sustain factor and damage output.
I start running more and more 2v2s, noticing that quit seriously every game I am in has at least 1 Core Necromancer, who can stale the game to the timer, every round.
I first tried playing my Ranger builds in these 2v2 matches, and quickly realized that due to the nature of the positioning of environmental objects, the more mobile Ranger LB Burst builds are just bad in the 2v2 Arenas outside of a few exception situations. I then noticed that as soon as I thought Druid was good again, it wasn't when a Core Necro was against it. The Druid cannot possibly damage the Core Necro, and I mean quite literally "It is impossible to deal damage to the Core Necro, even while running something like Marshal Amulet or Berserker Amulet." However, the Core Necromancer can go into Lich and follow you and kill you in 4 direct hits. He can also make sure to reveal you with his shroud before going into Lich form. I realized that Ranger just sucked in 2v2.
But why did Ranger suck? Was it really anything else other than FB/Necro? Nope, that's exactly what it is. FB/Necro is way too overwhelmingly powerful post-patch. Other classes cannot get into closed quarters with FB/Necro and hope to get anything done at all. And it isn't just the 2v2 arenas. It was also in Conquest during ATs and even Unranked. FB/Necro is way too strong right now.
And so I was made to use Necro is the 2v2 arenas. Pretty much what happened. And I've spoken to several other players who main other classes, who have come to the same realization and decision that has to be made.

FB/Necro both needs a hotfix man. It isn't just the 2v2 arenas so INB4 "oh the balance of 2v2 is different than conquest" because it really isn't.

Stand The Wall.6987 · February 28, 2020

we need actual counters to these sorts of things. its all pointless if the only thing that is done is nerfing. nerf em yes but this game needs more viable builds or it is doomed.

Axl.8924 · February 28, 2020

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Axl.8924 said:That would prevent necro from being able to do any competitive PVP which sucks.
Any time you completely prevent a class not sure if you know what sunwell is, but its a term used in WOW when paladin was completely excluded from a raid and felt neglected and left out.
banning necro would prevent them from competing, and competition can actually show how and what needs nerfed.