Game balance is bad, Necro is insane

GewRoo.4172 · March 2, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Zexanima.7851 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@"GewRoo.4172" said:What's the weakness of this build (DM/SR) again? CC? The meta version of this build is not weak(er than others) to CC for several reasons. On the one hand you have two stun breaks (three if you take the escape sigil; one stun break is a port btw) on a 30 sec cd which is at least (!) average and you have stability on Lich (although the cd is pretty high). On the other hand the build is not as punished as other builds or even classes if cc'ed since it's (passive) sustain is through the roof (life force regeneration from several sources, second life on short cd shroud, Lich, Death's Carapace). Being kited? What does that even mean in this context? That you don't get the kill? This is not your goal with this build and no problem if you can facetank several opponents for a certain amount of time (then again you have a decent amount of skills avaiable that range up to 1200). That enemies freecast on you? Regarding the sustain of this build this should not punish you in mere seconds; also there was no situation in which I ever were picked apart from range by one opponent in the past few days (and even if I am able to abuse LOS or none port spots). Also, a necromancer who knows how to kite and abuse the map is the biggest pain in the kitten I can imagine in this state of conquest (not ranger or thief).
I am multiclassing/multicheesing since day 1 btw and you can be sure I will abuse the kitten out of this build so don't talk about bias :)

Yeah its still weak vs mobile classes. Aoe classes and ones with a lot of burst CC do well against them.

The one you are talking about is spectral walk yes When i tested i went with spectral walk wurn and lich because enemies love to stick to you like glue, and getting away is quite tough. I even tried to hug the pillar in order to attempt to get away and avoid the aoes and failed to counter rev.

Necro is very very slow( Like guardian i hear) has very few ports and has a couple access to swiftness. They lack invulns evades and the like,so they are forced to take blows.

It seems like its quite hard to do a lot of damage outside shroud and or the lich.

Just bc they do well against you doesn't mean they do well against necro

I'm done talking you trying to antagonize me. I'm trying to prove a point: core necros are fairly slow have 2 evades so sticking to them like glue.

Go back to playing guardian mr guardian.

Mate, you are legit defending the most broken class in the game rn

I mean, the longer people think that core necro is op the more time I have to farm them The way people build/play core necro right now is not that hard to shut down.

EXACTLY!! they are weak vs the same amount of stuff. Necro is weak vs the same things mobility and also cc big bursts. There are plenty of classes that are powerful in burst. I saw weaver with fairly decent size bursts revs warriors with rifles also rangers with pets and bow, and also Reapers. Reapers also end core cause they can pull you in and chill you and start smacking you, since they do better in melee range.

He's acting as if necro's have no weakness, they got the same exact kind of weaknesses, its just they also got a few st rengths that when combined as well with support become really powerful in 2V2 which shouldn't be even bothered to mentioned as 5v5 is the official.

Necros have also always been vulnerable to being overrun.

The difference is, necros might be a bit to strong in application of prot and beefiness of shroud.

Boi, you are clueless. "Weak to mobility" - what does that even mean? A lack of mobility is not punishable if you can facetank 2 or more enemies on node without even bothering if your team is helping you or not. Then again you have speed thanks to WH 5 and Spectral Walk and even a port (two if you consider Shroud 2) which may not allow you to be everywhere on map but to disengage if you are pressured. Stack builds, ez game. "CC big bursts" - wut? I already wrote a few sentences about it but you did not even picked them up.

I don't care about convincing you or whatever but I think it's hilarious how you are trying to defend broken mechanics (broken in context of the state of the game) with buzzwords like mobility or CC. I think this build is too rewarding for the low effort put in, too forgiving for mistakes made, and in some ways insusceptible for opposing plays. In my opinion it is undebatable that some skills, traits, mechanics, and their synergies are in need of an adjustment or even rework. And yes, I still don't see a weakness or 'counter' to the SR/DM bunker build besides mirroring or trying to outrotate it (good luck with pugs or more than one of them in the other team).

Zexanima.7851 · March 2, 2020

@GewRoo.4172 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Zexanima.7851 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@GewRoo.4172 said:What's the weakness of this build (DM/SR) again? CC? The meta version of this build is not weak(er than others) to CC for several reasons. On the one hand you have two stun breaks (three if you take the escape sigil; one stun break is a port btw) on a 30 sec cd which is at least (!) average and you have stability on Lich (although the cd is pretty high). On the other hand the build is not as punished as other builds or even classes if cc'ed since it's (passive) sustain is through the roof (life force regeneration from several sources, second life on short cd shroud, Lich, Death's Carapace). Being kited? What does that even mean in this context? That you don't get the kill? This is not your goal with this build and no problem if you can facetank several opponents for a certain amount of time (then again you have a decent amount of skills avaiable that range up to 1200). That enemies freecast on you? Regarding the sustain of this build this should not punish you in mere seconds; also there was no situation in which I ever were picked apart from range by one opponent in the past few days (and even if I am able to abuse LOS or none port spots). Also, a necromancer who knows how to kite and abuse the map is the biggest pain in the kitten I can imagine in this state of conquest (not ranger or thief).
I am multiclassing/multicheesing since day 1 btw and you can be sure I will abuse the kitten out of this build so don't talk about bias :)

Yeah its still weak vs mobile classes. Aoe classes and ones with a lot of burst CC do well against them.

The one you are talking about is spectral walk yes When i tested i went with spectral walk wurn and lich because enemies love to stick to you like glue, and getting away is quite tough. I even tried to hug the pillar in order to attempt to get away and avoid the aoes and failed to counter rev.

Necro is very very slow( Like guardian i hear) has very few ports and has a couple access to swiftness. They lack invulns evades and the like,so they are forced to take blows.

It seems like its quite hard to do a lot of damage outside shroud and or the lich.

Just bc they do well against you doesn't mean they do well against necro

I'm done talking you trying to antagonize me. I'm trying to prove a point: core necros are fairly slow have 2 evades so sticking to them like glue.

Go back to playing guardian mr guardian.

Mate, you are legit defending the most broken class in the game rn

I mean, the longer people think that core necro is op the more time I have to farm them The way people build/play core necro right now is not that hard to shut down.

EXACTLY!! they are weak vs the same amount of stuff. Necro is weak vs the same things mobility and also cc big bursts. There are plenty of classes that are powerful in burst. I saw weaver with fairly decent size bursts revs warriors with rifles also rangers with pets and bow, and also Reapers. Reapers also end core cause they can pull you in and chill you and start smacking you, since they do better in melee range.

He's acting as if necro's have no weakness, they got the same exact kind of weaknesses, its just they also got a few st rengths that when combined as well with support become really powerful in 2V2 which shouldn't be even bothered to mentioned as 5v5 is the official.

Necros have also always been vulnerable to being overrun.

The difference is, necros might be a bit to strong in application of prot and beefiness of shroud.

Boi, you are clueless. "Weak to mobility" - what does that even mean? A lack of mobility is not punishable if you can facetank 2 or more enemies on node without even bothering if your team is helping you or not. Then again you have speed thanks to WH 5 and Spectral Walk and even a port (two if you consider Shroud 2) which may not allow you to be everywhere on map but to disengage

if

you are pressured. Stack builds, ez game. "CC big bursts" - wut? I already wrote a few sentences about it but you did not even picked them up.

I don't care about convincing you or whatever but I think it's hilarious how you are trying to defend broken mechanics (broken in context of the state of the game) with buzzwords like mobility or CC. I think this build is too rewarding for the low effort put in, too forgiving for mistakes made, and in some ways insusceptible for opposing plays. In my opinion it is undebatable that some skills, traits, mechanics, and their synergies are in need of an adjustment or even rework. And yes, I still don't see a weakness or 'counter' to the SR/DM bunker build besides mirroring or trying to outrotate it (good luck with pugs or more than one of them in the other team).

It's actually disheartening to see all the people going on about how strong core necro is. Yes, it needs adjusting. Mainly lich AA coefficient and fear from death. No, it's not unbeatable. No, it can't 1v2 unless the two are clueless. Yes, CC. will. shut. it down. Don't just spam your CC skills, take advantage of their long cast times and interrupt key skills. Avoid fears if you can help it. Pressure them hard in shroud. Its like since they don't melt in 2 seconds people see them as un-killable.

Axl.8924 · March 2, 2020

@Zexanima.7851 said:
@GewRoo.4172 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Zexanima.7851 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@GewRoo.4172 said:What's the weakness of this build (DM/SR) again? CC? The meta version of this build is not weak(er than others) to CC for several reasons. On the one hand you have two stun breaks (three if you take the escape sigil; one stun break is a port btw) on a 30 sec cd which is at least (!) average and you have stability on Lich (although the cd is pretty high). On the other hand the build is not as punished as other builds or even classes if cc'ed since it's (passive) sustain is through the roof (life force regeneration from several sources, second life on short cd shroud, Lich, Death's Carapace). Being kited? What does that even mean in this context? That you don't get the kill? This is not your goal with this build and no problem if you can facetank several opponents for a certain amount of time (then again you have a decent amount of skills avaiable that range up to 1200). That enemies freecast on you? Regarding the sustain of this build this should not punish you in mere seconds; also there was no situation in which I ever were picked apart from range by one opponent in the past few days (and even if I am able to abuse LOS or none port spots). Also, a necromancer who knows how to kite and abuse the map is the biggest pain in the kitten I can imagine in this state of conquest (not ranger or thief).
I am multiclassing/multicheesing since day 1 btw and you can be sure I will abuse the kitten out of this build so don't talk about bias :)

Yeah its still weak vs mobile classes. Aoe classes and ones with a lot of burst CC do well against them.

The one you are talking about is spectral walk yes When i tested i went with spectral walk wurn and lich because enemies love to stick to you like glue, and getting away is quite tough. I even tried to hug the pillar in order to attempt to get away and avoid the aoes and failed to counter rev.

Necro is very very slow( Like guardian i hear) has very few ports and has a couple access to swiftness. They lack invulns evades and the like,so they are forced to take blows.

It seems like its quite hard to do a lot of damage outside shroud and or the lich.

Just bc they do well against you doesn't mean they do well against necro

I'm done talking you trying to antagonize me. I'm trying to prove a point: core necros are fairly slow have 2 evades so sticking to them like glue.

Go back to playing guardian mr guardian.

Mate, you are legit defending the most broken class in the game rn

I mean, the longer people think that core necro is op the more time I have to farm them The way people build/play core necro right now is not that hard to shut down.

EXACTLY!! they are weak vs the same amount of stuff. Necro is weak vs the same things mobility and also cc big bursts. There are plenty of classes that are powerful in burst. I saw weaver with fairly decent size bursts revs warriors with rifles also rangers with pets and bow, and also Reapers. Reapers also end core cause they can pull you in and chill you and start smacking you, since they do better in melee range.

He's acting as if necro's have no weakness, they got the same exact kind of weaknesses, its just they also got a few st rengths that when combined as well with support become really powerful in 2V2 which shouldn't be even bothered to mentioned as 5v5 is the official.

Necros have also always been vulnerable to being overrun.

The difference is, necros might be a bit to strong in application of prot and beefiness of shroud.

Boi, you are clueless. "Weak to mobility" - what does that even mean? A lack of mobility is not punishable if you can facetank 2 or more enemies on node without even bothering if your team is helping you or not. Then again you have speed thanks to WH 5 and Spectral Walk and even a port (two if you consider Shroud 2) which may not allow you to be everywhere on map but to disengage

if

you are pressured. Stack builds, ez game. "CC big bursts" - wut? I already wrote a few sentences about it but you did not even picked them up.

I don't care about convincing you or whatever but I think it's hilarious how you are trying to defend broken mechanics (broken in context of the state of the game) with buzzwords like mobility or CC. I think this build is too rewarding for the low effort put in, too forgiving for mistakes made, and in some ways insusceptible for opposing plays. In my opinion it is undebatable that some skills, traits, mechanics, and their synergies are in need of an adjustment or even rework. And yes, I still don't see a weakness or 'counter' to the SR/DM bunker build besides mirroring or trying to outrotate it (good luck with pugs or more than one of them in the other team).

It's actually disheartening to see all the people going on about how strong core necro is. Yes, it needs adjusting. Mainly lich AA coefficient and fear from death. No, it's not unbeatable. No, it can't 1v2 unless the two are clueless. Yes, CC. will. shut. it down. Don't just spam your CC skills, take advantage of their long cast times and interrupt key skills. Avoid fears if you can help it. Pressure them hard in shroud. Its like since they don't melt in 2 seconds people see them as un-killable.

warhorn 5 you mean and spectral walk are good, but enemies still stick to you like glue because you need the extra swiftness to move around and kite, necros are known for being famously slow and limited ways to escape. Not much has changed.

There are a few classes known for being really slow and tanky, necro is one of them no invulns . This works great in 2v2 because its more closed in and eiaser to catch your enemies and also yoiu got a peeler in 2v2

Thing is the sustain is a bit too strong now since dmg was nerfed down so much, so now they got so much more room to take a beating while attacking.

Stallic.2397 · March 2, 2020

Necro don't need to be deleted from the game or hard-nerfed. These extremes are just silly.

But there's a reason 90% of 2v2's include at least one or two necros. The community likes to play flavor of the month, sure. But when you see Double Lich Form as a tactic to just turn around matches. Then you know something is up.

Necro needs nerfs as well as firebrand. They should both happen in unison otherwise we'll just have a new season filled with one or the other.

Axl.8924 · March 2, 2020

@Stallic.2397 said:Necro don't need to be deleted from the game or hard-nerfed. These extremes are just silly.
But there's a reason 90% of 2v2's include at least one or two necros. The community likes to play flavor of the month, sure. But when you see Double Lich Form as a tactic to just turn around matches. Then you know something is up.
Necro needs nerfs as well as a firebrand. They should both happen in unison otherwise we'll just have a new season filled with one or the other.

Lich could probably stand to lose stab there too. I think you should be able to stun lich.

Matching double lich in a stream and its nuts 2 necros vs a thief and a necro holy cow.

Exitus.3297 · March 3, 2020

This patch was literally meant to address the fact that cheese builds exist and that the damage numbers were out of control.

Now they made it so only cheese builds like this are allowed to exist. Necro may be a core example to this problem but they sure heck are not the only class that is just plain frustrating to fight.

Vagrant.7206 · March 3, 2020

Lich, life force generation, and downstate damage all need to be nerfed on necro. In PvP they are absurdly tanky while still being able to dish out as much damage as everybody else. It's simply not fun.

asterix.9614 · March 3, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@GewRoo.4172 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@lare.5129 said:why we should worry if necro is insane?if that true - they all get place in upper division, and we will play in non upper, where no necro, and get same % of lose/wins.So if some class is up - this is absolutely no make inject to out gamelay. So problem solved.
Also I am sure that necro is not insane. But who care?

These last two sentences.Nice.

People just didn't adapt, and most players still trying to play their old playstyle.

If someone's not able to counter a necro: go play the class/build yourself.And especially go play against good players, that know how to counter a necro, or ask a necro player about necro's weaknesses.

Not true at all. The current necromancer bunker builds have absolutely no counter build nor counter play. There is no build or trait related mechanic to abuse, no weakness to exploit, close to no skill cap to make this build perfom well, and on top of that very short windows in which dmg or CC can be applied (Shroud/Lich). While it's not unkillable in classical meaning there is literally no other way to adapt to this kind of sustainable builds in 2v2 or 5v5 than mirroring it (watch the mAT final when reworked Scrapper was a thing to get an idea).

Additionally, saying that Necromancer and its specialisations were weak pre patch is more than debatable. Core was performing pretty well in the past months and until ANet reworked Scourge both the Blood and the Curses build were meta defining in ATs and ranked. Players like Wing, Imda, Gornit, Mijo and Sinid were playing it for ages and always ranked in legendary.

Wow you sound like you don't play necro or know anything about necro at all then.

Necros were ultra vulnerable to mobile classes with big burst, of which most classes could perform under that. Because of the power creep of dmg sustain from other classes, necros tended to be punching bags.

As for weaknesses, you are kidding me right? necros are vulnerable to big burst kiting and CC.

Classes with tons of mobility CC: well duh there is thief and rev rangers got good mobility CC and blast dmg.Warrs have massive amounts of CC(Rampage) and big burst with rifle still.Guardians can burst and got reasonably high sustain and cc. they aren't as mobile as others but pretty strong.

So there you have it. Rangers thief revs warrs guardians are pretty strong.Remember that heavy burst kills necro. a reaper also works reasonably well v s core necro too.

Core necros have also weaker burst than reaper and condi is fairly weak now on core and boon corrupt is overshadowed by boonspam, so if you nerf sustain, you will have to seriously buff them elsewhere.

You want to deny that core nec was good?
You want to deny necro is absolutely stupid rn?
Aren't you like gold? Maybe it's a l2p issue :)

Its easy to deny things that are false. If i lied and said something dumb like:Thiefs have no wekanesses they got all this stuff daredevil abilities exaggerating, then yes of course a main thief member is going to call it out and say that is a kitten lie and false statement. You were caught lying about weaknesses. Either that, or you don't know anything about necro.

Like i said, i called you out that they are weak vs heavy burst as heavy burst is able to burn their shroud down, while also ccing them. Stun them CC them while bursting and cripple them while kiting.

If you had said they might need slight nerfs i would concede that. If you wanted to discuss what should be nerfed actually knowing how it works? fine. There are people out there who know necro class way better than i do, and thats fine, but if you want ANET to listen to you and take you seriously, you should really at least understand what they are weak against.

For instance: Did you not notice their ability to gain stab was nerfed? They are massively vulnerable to cc, more so than others and some classes still burst really really hard like revenant and guardian can burst pretty well too.

Oh yes, they are weak to 1v2s and 1v3s :)Tell me a single class that can currently burst down a necro reliable in a 1v1 situation.

Like i said, thief bursts hard. Acro thief warriors with rifle revenants can burst f airly hard with that facet of life in herald.(condi) Warriors are really strong with rifle and can burst real hard. Rangers with bow and pet can burst extremely hard 6+k

Even reaper has better ways to close gap with the claws that chill and get ya in melee range. Yeah i know reaper is necro but core is vulnerable to reaper.> @GewRoo.4172 said:

@Axl.8924 said:
@Tharan.9085 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@GewRoo.4172 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@lare.5129 said:why we should worry if necro is insane?if that true - they all get place in upper division, and we will play in non upper, where no necro, and get same % of lose/wins.So if some class is up - this is absolutely no make inject to out gamelay. So problem solved.
Also I am sure that necro is not insane. But who care?