Core ranger is broken

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits Moment of clarity and Remorseless , it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

[lare.5129]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Also, pet coefficients are brokenmy choose - relax and play. Don't calculate,

if u need pvp biuld - take from meta. For pvp, don't worry. If feel to big pressure take any build from metabatle

[Revolution.5409]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

It is assumed that this profession must work together with the pet, therefore its balance will always be particularly difficult due to the various characteristics that pets have.

For example, I think a 20-30% reduction on Furious Pounce with an increase in tiger vitality could be a good compromise to reduce the strength of this Build without making it useless.

I would not like to see the BM line weakened due to some coeffective who have not been adapted since the patch, even if I don't deny you that a reworking of MM is something I've always been curious to see.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

It is assumed that this profession must work together with the pet, therefore its balance will always be particularly difficult due to the various characteristics that pets have.

For example, I think a 20-30% reduction on Furious Pounce with an increase in tiger vitality could be a good compromise to reduce the strength of this Build without making it useless.

I would not like to see the BM line weakened due to some coeffective who have not been adapted since the patch, even if I don't deny you that a reworking of MM is something I've always been curious to see.

Since the beginning they could have simply given the same stats of ranger to the pet, all of them : you go tanky..so does your pet at the cost of dmg..you go bruiser..so does your pet and so on. Leave the F2 and family archetypes as they are now and simply give all pets the same base stats of ranger, I am sure it's technically possible to do that

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

[Revolution.5409]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

It is assumed that this profession must work together with the pet, therefore its balance will always be particularly difficult due to the various characteristics that pets have.

For example, I think a 20-30% reduction on Furious Pounce with an increase in tiger vitality could be a good compromise to reduce the strength of this Build without making it useless.

I would not like to see the BM line weakened due to some coeffective who have not been adapted since the patch, even if I don't deny you that a reworking of MM is something I've always been curious to see.

Since the beginning they could have simply given the same stats of ranger to the pet, all of them : you go tanky..so does your pet at the cost of dmg..you go bruiser..so does your pet and so on. Leave the F2 and family archetypes as they are now and simply

give all pets the same base stats of ranger

, I am sure it's technically possible to do that

This would also mean having dead pets when you use a Berserker amulet, birds and cats are the perfect example for this situation, but I will tell you I like the versatility of this profession is why I play with it, the problem lies in the way in which the profession does damage to opponents, both Ranger and Slb are too dependent on damage multipliers, if MM were reworked to give sustained damage and not burst would make the situation much better.

[Crozame.4098]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Because without marksmanship, the pet damage sucks.

^ True story. Go test play a Ranger for yourself.

That is without marksmanship. Lowering the damage from a lv3 eviserate to lv2 isn't suddenly going to make it suck and be "unviable", just be less oppressive from what it is.Just don't be surprised when this happens.

Oh I'm completely expecting Arenanet to once again nerf the wrong things on Ranger.

But the difference this time around, is that Ranger won't survive it.

Aside from everyone's current complaining, if Ranger pets lose even 20% of the damage output they have now and that damage is not reallocated somewhere onto Core Ranger, the Core Ranger will fall out of viability completely.

Soulbeast will barely hang on to what very little viability it has left, only because it can merge and not have to rely on pet damage.

Your statement is just simply nonsense. Look at the previous balances/nerfs on other classes. Core hammer guard nerfed but there are still many GS core guards around and some DH, and FB was out. (This is prior to this huge balance patch); Heal FB got nerfed to hell, but symbol band was invented; D/P Daredevil was nerfed to the ground, but afterwards people play core s/d; Berzerker war got nerfed to the ground, so people play core and later SB; Scourge got nerfed, then people play core terrormancer. Chrono becomes unplayable, but then it comes the chaos Mesmer, the most stupid class so far in the game (again prior to the balance patch). So many times when it comes to nerfing others classes, you guys argue against the defenders saying the nerfs are well deserved, now its ranger's turn, so just embrace it mate.

So people just go around now asking for nerfs out of spite......before long there will be nothing more to nerf or play....people will move on while many will keep living off their bitterness

I am simply saying, rangers should be balanced, and its fine because players will find a playable build anyways . And your statemetn is also wrong. Because nerfs are relative not absolute.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Because without marksmanship, the pet damage sucks.

^ True story. Go test play a Ranger for yourself.

That is without marksmanship. Lowering the damage from a lv3 eviserate to lv2 isn't suddenly going to make it suck and be "unviable", just be less oppressive from what it is.Just don't be surprised when this happens.

Oh I'm completely expecting Arenanet to once again nerf the wrong things on Ranger.

But the difference this time around, is that Ranger won't survive it.

Aside from everyone's current complaining, if Ranger pets lose even 20% of the damage output they have now and that damage is not reallocated somewhere onto Core Ranger, the Core Ranger will fall out of viability completely.

Soulbeast will barely hang on to what very little viability it has left, only because it can merge and not have to rely on pet damage.

Your statement is just simply nonsense. Look at the previous balances/nerfs on other classes. Core hammer guard nerfed but there are still many GS core guards around and some DH, and FB was out. (This is prior to this huge balance patch); Heal FB got nerfed to hell, but symbol band was invented; D/P Daredevil was nerfed to the ground, but afterwards people play core s/d; Berzerker war got nerfed to the ground, so people play core and later SB; Scourge got nerfed, then people play core terrormancer. Chrono becomes unplayable, but then it comes the chaos Mesmer, the most stupid class so far in the game (again prior to the balance patch). So many times when it comes to nerfing others classes, you guys argue against the defenders saying the nerfs are well deserved, now its ranger's turn, so just embrace it mate.

So people just go around now asking for nerfs out of spite......before long there will be nothing more to nerf or play....people will move on while many will keep living off their bitterness

I am simply saying, rangers should be balanced, and its fine because players will find a playable build anyways . And your statemetn is also wrong. Because nerfs are relative not absolute.

That's where you're wrong. Ranger isn't like Mesmer/Mirage where there just so happened to be a ton of sleeper combos within the trait system that would actually work.

Ranger mains are trying to point out to people before this nerfing, what the Ranger class can survive and what it can't, in terms of still having a viable build after pet nerfs.

I'm not so sure while writing these posts that you are consciously keeping in mind how much nerfing Ranger has seen across Core/Druid/Soulbeast within the past 6 to 8 seasons. It has seriously been 1 big nerf after another, each season. Ranger is truthfully on the cusp on being no longer usable in pvp. Right now the only thing it has left is damage output. The Core has pet damage and the Soulbeast has One Wolf Pack. If pets are nerfed too much, you will see Core Ranger completely vanish, and if One Wolf Pack is touched at all, Soulbeast will be done. There are no more magical builds left to discover that haven't already been tested.

Anything is always viable while yoloing, even meme builds. But in terms of seriously competing for high leaderboard positions or having potency in ATs, Ranger is like 1/2 a nerf away form being unusable unless you want to play with a handicap. And that isn't a forum-biased defense. I'm being completely serious about that.

[Crozame.4098]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Because without marksmanship, the pet damage sucks.

^ True story. Go test play a Ranger for yourself.

That is without marksmanship. Lowering the damage from a lv3 eviserate to lv2 isn't suddenly going to make it suck and be "unviable", just be less oppressive from what it is.Just don't be surprised when this happens.

Oh I'm completely expecting Arenanet to once again nerf the wrong things on Ranger.

But the difference this time around, is that Ranger won't survive it.

Aside from everyone's current complaining, if Ranger pets lose even 20% of the damage output they have now and that damage is not reallocated somewhere onto Core Ranger, the Core Ranger will fall out of viability completely.

Soulbeast will barely hang on to what very little viability it has left, only because it can merge and not have to rely on pet damage.

Your statement is just simply nonsense. Look at the previous balances/nerfs on other classes. Core hammer guard nerfed but there are still many GS core guards around and some DH, and FB was out. (This is prior to this huge balance patch); Heal FB got nerfed to hell, but symbol band was invented; D/P Daredevil was nerfed to the ground, but afterwards people play core s/d; Berzerker war got nerfed to the ground, so people play core and later SB; Scourge got nerfed, then people play core terrormancer. Chrono becomes unplayable, but then it comes the chaos Mesmer, the most stupid class so far in the game (again prior to the balance patch). So many times when it comes to nerfing others classes, you guys argue against the defenders saying the nerfs are well deserved, now its ranger's turn, so just embrace it mate.

So people just go around now asking for nerfs out of spite......before long there will be nothing more to nerf or play....people will move on while many will keep living off their bitterness

I am simply saying, rangers should be balanced, and its fine because players will find a playable build anyways . And your statemetn is also wrong. Because nerfs are relative not absolute.

That's where you're wrong. Ranger isn't like Mesmer/Mirage where there just so happened to be a ton of sleeper combos within the trait system that would actually work.

Ranger mains are trying to point out to people before this nerfing, what the Ranger class can survive and what it can't, in terms of still having a viable build after pet nerfs.

I'm not so sure while writing these posts that you are consciously keeping in mind how much nerfing Ranger has seen across Core/Druid/Soulbeast within the past 6 to 8 seasons. It has seriously been 1 big nerf after another, each season. Ranger is truthfully on the cusp on being no longer usable in pvp. Right now the only thing it has left is damage output. The Core has pet damage and the Soulbeast has One Wolf Pack. If pets are nerfed too much, you will see Core Ranger completely vanish, and if One Wolf Pack is touched at all, Soulbeast will be done. There are no more magical builds left to discover that haven't already been tested.

Anything is always viable while yoloing, even meme builds. But in terms of seriously competing for high leaderboard positions or having potency in ATs, Ranger is like 1/2 a nerf away form being unusable unless you want to play with a handicap. And that isn't a forum-biased defense. I'm being completely serious about that.

This might be true if they dont touch other broken builds, which is unlikely.

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

[Seth.8906]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

Why compare player and pet dps? Is more like pet and other class mechanic...Phantoms shatters shround virues ecc

[apharma.3741]

@Seth.8906 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

Why compare player and pet dps? Is more like pet and other class mechanic...Phantoms shatters shround virues ecc

None of those keep attacking your enemies at all times. Additionally some of the attacks on some pets actually do more damage than the attacks on all the mechanics you mentioned. The reason you should compare to player damage is because the pet is supposed to make up some part of the rangers damage, so how much damage should the pet be doing compared to a player?

[Seth.8906]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Seth.8906 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with 9095205 pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

Why compare player and pet dps? Is more like pet and other class mechanic...Phantoms shatters shround virues ecc

None of those keep attacking your enemies at all times. Additionally some of the attacks on some pets actually do more damage than the attacks on all the mechanics you mentioned. The reason you should compare to player damage is because the pet is supposed to make up some part of the rangers damage, so how much damage should the pet be doing compared to a player?

Sure they dont keep attacking but you have better control.The pet can attac forever but he miss and miss. So is big number vs other mechanic who have less big numbers but in the end the dps is better.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

Refusing to discuss? On the contrary my friend, I just don't care what the ratio of damage is for Ranger vs. Pet, nor do I think any of the other Ranger mains do either. The reason why you aren't getting responses is because people are probably not identifying the importance of your question to begin with or its relevance as a counter point. Honestly, I almost didn't respond to this for that very reason.

Regardless of what the ratio is "70% pet 30% ranger" or "30% pet 70% ranger" is kind of negligent to the point that the Ranger mains are stating, and that is: "The cumulative damage output between the Pet and the Ranger is just not as high as people are acting like it is." You may be focusing on some philosophical game design theory behind the question of: "how much damage is too much on an AI?" and that isn't wrong to do. But in the more immediate matter of things, that is not what Ranger mains are concerned with. Right now the Ranger mains are concerned with maintaining viable damage output regardless of if it is 70/30 or 30/70, doesn't matter. So when people are hard targeting pet damage for big nuke nerfing, Ranger mains are trying to explain why regardless of 70/30 or 30/70, the Ranger needs that damage or at least most of it to be maintained. <- And I'm not just saying that out of some forum biased defense. Right now the only thing that makes Core Ranger viable is that threat of surprise KO from the pet. If birds/tiger were to lose even 15% to 20% of their damage output tomorrow, Core Ranger would lose that threat range and no longer be viable because every class would much more easily be able to take a hit and then reset before another inc big damage pet strike. Without that surprise KO factor, similar to Thief/Mesmer attacks out of stealth, the Core Ranger will be out brawled by other classes. It already is by condi heavy builds. And keep in mind that the person beating the Ranger doesn't actually have to be able to kill it to beat it. If they can survive the damage output on node 1v1 and force the Ranger off the node to kite for it to be able to survive, that is the point where the Core Ranger becomes unviable. The only thing holding this back from happening currently, is actual kill threat coming from the pet. And the only reason why Ranger mains are defending it so wildly right now is because Soulbeast is weak now after Maul/WI nerfing, Druid is actually the worst specialization in the game competitively, and Core Ranger is hanging on the cusp of viability. Whether it will remain playable or not, will depend on how hard Arenanet nerfs the pets, and if they give any damage back to Core Ranger in other places.

I'd also like to point out that players should try looking at this from a different point of view. Example: If the Core Ranger wasn't benefitting such tankiness from Knight's/Resistance, would anyone still be upset about pet damage output? If the Core Rangers were running Berserker/Eagle and could be 2HKO from a Holosmith or Spellbreaker, would anyone still be complaining about pet damage? I honestly believe that if the Ranger was glass, we wouldn't be seeing many complaints at all. So it makes you wonder where does the problem really lie here? Is it actually pet damage or is it the old Druid effect? Like in HoT when Bunker Druids would stat completely for sustain no damage setups, and then kill you with Smokescale/Bristleback. This is an age old problem for Ranger balancing in Guild Wars 2. The pet damage does not scale with the amulet worn by the Ranger. It's something to think about, something to consider.

And before you say "But you didn't answer my question" I did answer your question when I said I don't care how it's fixed, so long as the ratio to ratio of pet vs ranger damage remains reasonable to create pressure that is threatening enough to provide kill opportunity.

Also, you should know me better than this by now. I don't respond or argue with people who say things that make viable sense for a good opinion stated. Recently in a Druid thread I made, a guy openly disagreed with me and I gave him a thumbs up and said "This is the type of feedback I am looking for." When I respond to defend something on my main class, it's when people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all. A couple good examples would be 1) A Core Necromancer complaining about Core Ranger, when Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger. Or 2) Someone posting cropped screenshots of a Soulbeast hitting them for 10k Mauls and claiming a Core Ranger hit them for that damage, when in reality Core Rangers only hits for 3k-4k Mauls.

I fully expect nerfs to happen to Pets. I'm just trying to keep the points of views & suggestions of both forum users and Arenanet, within reason.

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".

As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.

A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.

It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits

Moment of clarity

and

Remorseless

, it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul

And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.

These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.

Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.

I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"

Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.

Refusing to discuss? On the contrary my friend, I just don't care what the ratio of damage is for Ranger vs. Pet, nor do I think any of the other Ranger mains do either. The reason why you aren't getting responses is because people are probably not identifying the importance of your question to begin with or its relevance as a counter point. Honestly, I almost didn't respond to this for that very reason.

Regardless of what the ratio is "70% pet 30% ranger" or "30% pet 70% ranger" is kind of negligent to the point that the Ranger mains are stating, and that is: "The cumulative damage output between the Pet and the Ranger is just not as high as people are acting like it is." You may be focusing on some philosophical game design theory behind the question of: "how much damage is too much on an AI?" and that isn't wrong to do. But in the more immediate matter of things, that is not what Ranger mains are concerned with. Right now the Ranger mains are concerned with maintaining viable damage output regardless of if it is 70/30 or 30/70, doesn't matter. So when people are hard targeting pet damage for big nuke nerfing, Ranger mains are trying to explain why regardless of 70/30 or 30/70, the Ranger needs that damage or at least most of it to be maintained. <- And I'm not just saying that out of some forum biased defense. Right now the only thing that makes Core Ranger viable is that threat of surprise KO from the pet. If birds/tiger were to lose even 15% to 20% of their damage output tomorrow, Core Ranger would lose that threat range and no longer be viable because every class would much more easily be able to take a hit and then reset before another inc big damage pet strike. Without that surprise KO factor, similar to Thief/Mesmer attacks out of stealth, the Core Ranger will be out brawled by other classes. It already is by condi heavy builds. And keep in mind that the person beating the Ranger doesn't actually have to be able to kill it to beat it. If they can survive the damage output on node 1v1 and force the Ranger off the node to kite for it to be able to survive, that is the point where the Core Ranger becomes unviable. The only thing holding this back from happening currently, is actual kill threat coming from the pet. And the only reason why Ranger mains are defending it so wildly right now is because Soulbeast is weak now after Maul/WI nerfing, Druid is actually the worst specialization in the game competitively, and Core Ranger is hanging on the cusp of viability. Whether it will remain playable or not, will depend on how hard Arenanet nerfs the pets, and if they give any damage back to Core Ranger in other places.

I'd also like to point out that players should try looking at this from a different point of view. Example: If the Core Ranger wasn't benefitting such tankiness from Knight's/Resistance, would anyone still be upset about pet damage output? If the Core Rangers were running Berserker/Eagle and could be 2HKO from a Holosmith or Spellbreaker, would anyone still be complaining about pet damage? I honestly believe that if the Ranger was glass, we wouldn't be seeing many complaints at all. So it makes you wonder where does the problem really lie here? Is it actually pet damage or is it the old Druid effect? Like in HoT when Bunker Druids would stat completely for sustain no damage setups, and then kill you with Smokescale/Bristleback. This is an age old problem for Ranger balancing in Guild Wars 2. The pet damage does not scale with the amulet worn by the Ranger. It's something to think about, something to consider.

And before you say "But you didn't answer my question" I did answer your question when I said I don't care how it's fixed, so long as the ratio to ratio of pet vs ranger damage remains reasonable to create pressure that is threatening enough to provide kill opportunity.

Also, you should know me better than this by now. I don't respond or argue with people who say things that make viable sense for a good opinion stated. Recently in a Druid thread I made, a guy openly disagreed with me and I gave him a thumbs up and said "This is the type of feedback I am looking for." When I respond to defend something on my main class, it's when people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all. A couple good examples would be 1) A Core Necromancer complaining about Core Ranger, when Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger. Or 2) Someone posting cropped screenshots of a Soulbeast hitting them for 10k Mauls and claiming a Core Ranger hit them for that damage, when in reality Core Rangers only hits for 3k-4k Mauls.

I fully expect nerfs to happen to Pets. I'm just trying to keep the points of views & suggestions of both forum users and Arenanet, within reason.

I skim read this because I asked for less than 200 words and you wrote 879.

The point of talking about it is as I said to you, the nerfs are coming and if you want to avoid a Chrono situation you need to talk and be less biased than you clearly are about this kind of stuff. Some pets clearly are doing more damage than should be reasonable on a sub component of the class and if you want the damage on core ranger then you need to lose it on the pet in some ways. An AI part shouldn't be doing the lion's share of your damage, this was a lesson learnt back in the old mesmer phantasm days where the mechanic just sucked due to them possibly being up 100% so having to be accounted for at all times.

Still you should be talking about how much damage should a pet be doing? Should a ranger be effectively having the damage of 50%-75% of another player while the pet has 150%? I guarantee you will get that if you don't talk about reducing some pets damage.

I told you, pick your poison.

[Erzian.5218]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger.is a good example of...@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all.

[mistsim.2748]

@Brujeria.7536 said:

Well guess what? They nerfed scourge to the ground in 2 game modes because people wouldnt learn to not stand in the red circles. The new red circles are called pets, and they stick to you, this is way less of a l2p issue then scourge was and everybody knows what happened.

How is that the same? If we played only deathmatch, Scourge wouldn't have been broken. But because we have to play CP, the entire objective is covered by red circles...so you can't take the objective unless you can stand in them.

Are you seriously trying to equate a squishy ranger pet with terrible AI to wells?

[mistsim.2748]

@Ubi.4136 said:Not sure how they can fix it and balance the others out at the same time.

It's so easy, basically what every ranger player has been asking for - take DPS away from pets and give it to the ranger/druid. How is this hard? But what will happen is they'll just kneejerk nerf pet dps without buffing any of our weapons/utilities, and we'll be back to the beginning.

[mistsim.2748]

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Because without marksmanship, the pet damage sucks.

^ True story. Go test play a Ranger for yourself.

That is without marksmanship. Lowering the damage from a lv3 eviserate to lv2 isn't suddenly going to make it suck and be "unviable", just be less oppressive from what it is.Just don't be surprised when this happens.

Oh I'm completely expecting Arenanet to once again nerf the wrong things on Ranger.

But the difference this time around, is that Ranger won't survive it.

Aside from everyone's current complaining, if Ranger pets lose even 20% of the damage output they have now and that damage is not reallocated somewhere onto Core Ranger, the Core Ranger will fall out of viability completely.

Soulbeast will barely hang on to what very little viability it has left, only because it can merge and not have to rely on pet damage.

Your statement is just simply nonsense. Look at the previous balances/nerfs on other classes. Core hammer guard nerfed but there are still many GS core guards around and some DH, and FB was out. (This is prior to this huge balance patch); Heal FB got nerfed to hell, but symbol band was invented; D/P Daredevil was nerfed to the ground, but afterwards people play core s/d; Berzerker war got nerfed to the ground, so people play core and later SB; Scourge got nerfed, then people play core terrormancer. Chrono becomes unplayable, but then it comes the chaos Mesmer, the most stupid class so far in the game (again prior to the balance patch). So many times when it comes to nerfing others classes, you guys argue against the defenders saying the nerfs are well deserved, now its ranger's turn, so just embrace it mate.

Your statement is complete nonsense, actually. You simply have no clue how bad the ranger's kit is. We don't get to come up with sleeper builds. Our kit has no cohesion, half of our utilities are non-functional, and two thirds of ours weapons are in a terrible shape.

When other classes receive a nerf, they still have a powerful kit, so they can experiment with different weapons and utilities, maybe come up with something new.

When rangers receive a nerf, THERE IS NO KIT. Our kit is the pet! It's garbage! Right now all we have is longbow and GS with 5-6 decent utilities. Once pets are nerfed, there's nothing left to figure out.

[mistsim.2748]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ These suggestions would result in Core Ranger Pet losing about 1/4th of its burst damage output, but most of that damage being reallocated back to the Ranger's Maul.

I don't want more Maul damage. I want ANet to fix our other weapons and utilities. We need to step away from LB/GS being the only usable weapons. Since druid nerfs it's all we've had.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Erzian.5218 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger.is a good example of...@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all.

No

You're foolish if you think Core Necromancer/Reaper doesn't counter Core Ranger.

In what world? gold? silver? NA?

Definitely not the upside down where you're at, where apparently white owls & tigers are somehow sustaining through necromancer spin to win cc chains.

If you're in NA, we can go test this and record it 1v1 if you'd like. I'll play Core Necromancer or Reaper or both, you're choice. And I guarantee you that not only would you not be able to beat me with a Core Ranger, but you won't be able to drop me bellow 90% health value to boot.

[Erzian.5218]

I am on EU but whatever, believe what you want it wont change how the match up actually plays out at plat 2+ or even plat 1 I'd guess.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Erzian.5218 said:I am on EU but whatever, believe what you want it wont change how the match up actually plays out at plat 2+ or even plat 1 I'd guess.

I have a EU alt. I can log in with you right now if you agree to this. Won't take long to roll up a Core Necro on that f2p account.

Just give me the word.

[Erzian.5218]

That's cool! I am online right now if you want to give it a shot :)

[Avatar.3568]

I want the results