Core ranger is broken

[storm.3120]

@"Erzian.5218" said:That's cool! I am online right now if you want to give it a shot :)

I want to kill him too !

[Avatar.3568]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Erzian.5218" said:That's cool! I am online right now if you want to give it a shot :)

I want to kill him too !

Me too, can we make a duel in 2 days? I am not at home

[Erzian.5218]

Do you want to kill him or me? :#

[Avatar.3568]

@Erzian.5218 said:Do you want to kill him or me? :#

I think we flighted a few days ago, but non died

Hi I am Held der Zeit

[storm.3120]

@Erzian.5218 said:Do you want to kill him or me? :#Him ofc. Or at least watch how you kill him xD

[Erzian.5218]

Will have to delay it though as he hasn't replied yet and I've got an eso raid in about 10 minutes. I am still up for it later/another day.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Commenting here to see what happens lol.Got some spice on these boards finally.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Erzian.5218 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger.is a good example of...@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all.

Nope, he was right.

After some elongated super sustain 1v1s, I couldn't beat his core ranger with a core necromancer.

We didn't test anything with Reaper though. My random EU account is f2p.

[Altaiz.3570]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:[&DQQhKSArCC94AHgAuwAAALgAAACWAQAA7QAAAC8uAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

Here's the build. Everyone run it so the balance team actually does something about it.

Also, pet coefficients are broken. So you really just have to run around aimlessly and block occasionally. Constant condi clear. It's everything you could ever want. Can also run sic'em for more damage instead of protect me.

It might get fixed sometime next year.

Mauls don’t do 8-9k unless there is huge might involved or mega vul on you, not as easy to land such big numbers as being perceived, lb is so easy to counter don’t mention it as some “counter play” lb is only lethal when you facetank the whole damage, rest lb 3-4 do basically nothing on base of damage autos do barely 500-800 and barrage is so easy to move around. That’s leaves GS as only damage weapon.

Rest of the weapons are condi based mostly and are HOT TRASH, if you ask for nerfs on GS you better ask for buffs on other weapons damage if you are being such a fair play to community.

I agree nobody bats an eyes when it’s about their class that’s why for the past 5-6 season no HOLO,WARRIORS or ELEMENTALISTS were found on forums complaining about their busted classes. Now everywhere you see them LUL

[Altaiz.3570]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Poledra Val.1490 said:Greetings Anet, you promised consistent fixes if something is clearly broken and Ranger/pets are currently busted beyond imagining not to mention rangers sustain with extremelly low cooldowns on greatsword and there almost innate ability to be halfway across the map if things get rough.

I can literally see no drawback in playing ranger atm.

Even the high end well skilled ranger players acknoledge that the class is indeed very broken currently.

You promised fixes if there was a clear and obvious problem, Ranger and Necro are both busted, so the ball is in you're court.

You have not delivered thus far, lets hope our faith in you was not misplaced.

Drawbacks:

1. Birds/Tigers actually explode when focused at all. And then 50% of the Core Ranger's damage output is on a 60s CD.
2. Can't peel/disengage for #$%^. When 2v1 focused by competent players at all, it dies. <- This is the first big reason why Core Ranger is not viable for tournament, because it lacks the disengage play required to stay alive long enough to do anything at all, in higher tiered play environments.

The 2nd reason why Core Ranger or Soulbeast is not viable for tournament, is because the majority of the bell curve or bellow community always gets it nerfed from being able to do so. Let me explain something to you very carefully. Ok so all of the objects that have been placed in the pvp maps, those were meant to be used for LOS and positioning. These are mechanics designed into the game that were meant to be used against Longbows and Rifles and Shortbows and all ranged projectiles. However, bell curve and bellow players ignore this. They are the types of players who walk into the middle of Eternal Coliseum mid and stand there on the node while a Deadeye is shooting at them, and completely ignore the 4 pillars and the boxes around the node. When they die to the DE or a Ranger, they come into this forum and complain about how OP high the damage is. Higher tiered players above the bell curve wouldn't let that happen. 1 - They have good map awareness and would position themselves with an object in between themselves and the ranged attacker before he even arrives to the team fight. 2 - If they were caught unaware which does happen sometimes, they quickly react an begin to LOS.

So what we are really talking about here, is the point where players rise from ignoring LOS mechanics, to utilizing them. Rangers are very OP in environments where players ignore LOS mechanics, and this is where all of the complaining is coming from. However, in environments where players do utilize these mechanics often and know how to exploit them, the effectiveness of Ranger drops through the floor to where it is no longer viable amongst high tiered play. <- This is because the large bulk of the community complains about how high powered ranged is, as they choose to ignore built in game mechanics that were meant to be used to deal with the ranged. And then Arenanet listens to this bulk of QQ, and Ranger gets balanced around that, instead of around high tiered players who actually utilize all the mechanics granted to them.

Ranger is a weird class due to the difference in effectiveness between bellow bell curve and above bell curve for the above reasons ^ Ranger is very strong against bad players, but Ranger is just bad against good players. Unfortunately for all of the reasons described, Arenanet struggles to find a cherry sweet spot to settle the balance so that it works for everyone.

Pretty much sums it up.

Rangers have plenty of disengage? Half the time it feels like most of my team is chasing some ranger across the map. I mean sure it isn’t as good as a thief, but it has plenty of disengage. Soulbeast especially if you run a bird. Obviously it isn’t as good as thief or some of the warrior builds but it’s still more than enough. Even more than Mesmer right now unless the mes is running portal, which is just a waste in solo queue.

Why would we run a bird that is only for disengage and is probably gonna get nerfed damage wise just for running like a psycho, NEWSFLASH you can’t swap pets now so it’s better to use something more viable instead? Your arguments are terrible at core.

That’s like me asking some class to give up utility damage wise to be more tanky or so that they can disengage.

[Altaiz.3570]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo choo with a tag all the time? There's loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....

they don't use rangers in their top teams

...let's ask @bluri.2653 why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

But enough of this pointless talk , take your bird pets whatever and let's increase the teamplay viability of rangers, so that at least the class is usable in wvw outside the even more pointless roaming as you lot like to call it, as it brings in no loot, badges..or fun.

What amazes me is that how much effective thief is in any comp and yet thief mains still complain about everything and ask for buffs on their class and nerfs on others, so much so theif was becoming a 1v1 class last patch and they would go on to beat high level warriors when it’s isn’t even their class role.

Rn leaderboard has so many thieves in top 50 and every other thief build is viable.

People complain about ranger given their broken revenant, unkillable renegade, core necro, LR ele, prot holo out there terrorising people.

[Eurantien.4632]

Have you guys tried killing the pets?

[Bast.7253]

@Altaiz.3570 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Except it isn't necro mains asking for ranger to be addressed, well known top players in EU say it's broken, you can see them saying it in Sindrener's and Boyce's stream. You can also see these 2 players saying that they don't want ANet to hammer it down to useless but that it needs a lot of adjustments, small in size but a lot of them.

Also not seeing them in WvW? Are you blind or do you just choo choo with a tag all the time? There's loads of rangers dotted around adding into small fights or worse still adding into fights at duel spots.

What top players? Outside the far node 1vs1, the class has zero presence : offers close to zero supports and can't really handle more than 2 badly played classes at the same time, the class has been nerfed to the ground because it doesn't really offer anything outside their 1v1 niche , despite their claims....

they don't use rangers in their top teams

...let's ask @bluri.2653 why there is no ranger in his team if it's so powerful.

But enough of this pointless talk , take your bird pets whatever and let's increase the teamplay viability of rangers, so that at least the class is usable in wvw outside the even more pointless roaming as you lot like to call it, as it brings in no loot, badges..or fun.

What amazes me is that how much effective thief is in any comp and yet thief mains still complain about everything and ask for buffs on their class and nerfs on others, so much so theif was becoming a 1v1 class last patch and they would go on to beat high level warriors when it’s isn’t even their class role.

Rn leaderboard has so many thieves in top 50 and every other thief build is viable.

People complain about ranger given their broken revenant, unkillable renegade, core necro, LR ele, prot holo out there terrorising people.

People complain about thief because you have to play it perfectly to even be effective. When the rest of the meta is mostly just build carry and profit.

If you don't understand the thief complaints you should try playing it. It's really hard to do anything in a normal season, much less this trash meta.

[Kuma.1503]

I won't argue whether or not ranger is over-performing. That isn't my area of expertise.

If i were to propose a theoretical nerf for ranger, I'd suggest making point blank shot function as more of a point blank shot. Remove the hard CC unless the opponent is within X units. If the opponent is within X units, they're knocked back to the range threshold.

Example Numbers: Knock back the target if they're within 450 units. If the target is < 450 units away they knocked back until they're 450 units away from you.

Rangers will no longer be able to stand atop their perch and PBS --> Rapid Fire, but it will still function as a tool to force caps and help them disengage in longbow. If above the range threshold, the skill can either inflict cripple or daze.

I would compensate them by buffing the damage of rapid fire. Without PBS it would be more difficult to land every hit, so opponents should be punished if they tank the whole thing.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

[Eurantien.4632]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

Well, its not very desirable right now in top tier 5v5 because people will just kill your pets and make you useless. There are also several builds out there that just win the 1v1 match up already.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

Well, its not very desirable right now in top tier 5v5 because people will just kill your pets and make you useless. There are also several builds out there that just win the 1v1 match up already.

Top tier isn't the only level of play they consider when balancing something. Also there have been builds in the past that were considered over bearing even though they had losing matchups and had plenty of counterplay. Those things don't stop something needing to be toned town.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

Well, its not very desirable right now in top tier 5v5 because people will just kill your pets and make you useless. There are also several builds out there that just win the 1v1 match up already.

Top tier isn't the only level of play they consider when balancing something. Also there have been builds in the past that were considered over bearing even though they had losing matchups and had plenty of counterplay. Those things don't stop something needing to be toned town.

It doesn't take a top tier player to figure out how to attack a pet.

Look, MOST OF THE RANGER MAINS AGREE that the pet is outputting a bit too much damage for the sustain that Core Ranger possesses. But to the degree of over-powered that people are making this out to be, is seriously being embellished by players who are flat out making the choice to ignore pets rather than attacking them. That embellishment is going to push nerfs on Ranger that will remove its viability, and that very specific Marks/Wild/Beast LB/GS Pet build is the only viable build Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast has left.

Imo, they need to:

1. Leave pet coefficients alone. Nerfing pet coefficients also effects druid, which already has -20% pet attributes and can't run Marks.
2. Bring the coefficients on Maul/WI back to what they were before this recent nerf.
3. Now nerf Marks MOC from 50% to 25%, and AoO on GS from 50% to 25%. Remorseless can stay 25% - This will significantly dampen pet damage kill burst, which is what players are complaining about, but allow pets to maintain gradual damage output. And then despite this nerf, the 2) change will allow Soulbeast to maintain most of the damage it still has now after the recent nerf, and redistribute some damage from the Core Pet back to the Ranger, which it's going to need.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

Well, its not very desirable right now in top tier 5v5 because people will just kill your pets and make you useless. There are also several builds out there that just win the 1v1 match up already.

Top tier isn't the only level of play they consider when balancing something. Also there have been builds in the past that were considered over bearing even though they had losing matchups and had plenty of counterplay. Those things don't stop something needing to be toned town.

It doesn't take a top tier player to figure out how to attack a pet.

Look, MOST OF THE RANGER MAINS AGREE that the pet is outputting a bit too much damage for the sustain that Core Ranger possesses.

And , at a base level, how much damage should a pet be able to do compared to a player skill?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Have you guys tried killing the pets?

This is pretty much in the same vein as just dodge, just los , just CC.

Well, its not very desirable right now in top tier 5v5 because people will just kill your pets and make you useless. There are also several builds out there that just win the 1v1 match up already.

Top tier isn't the only level of play they consider when balancing something. Also there have been builds in the past that were considered over bearing even though they had losing matchups and had plenty of counterplay. Those things don't stop something needing to be toned town.

It doesn't take a top tier player to figure out how to attack a pet.

Look, MOST OF THE RANGER MAINS AGREE that the pet is outputting a bit too much damage for the sustain that Core Ranger possesses.

And , at a base level, how much damage should a pet be able to do compared to a player skill?

I don't know why you guys keep bringing this up from the strangest negligent standpoint.

That answer to that question is all relative to the damage output/sustain of other classes/builds within the meta and how much damage the Ranger is pumping out.

So in other words, it all depends on how much damage output the Ranger + its Pet are pumping out in regard to their sustain, compared to the DPS and sustain that everything else in the meta is pumping out. There is no golden rule in game design that says "Regardless of all other circumstances, an AI should only ever deal this much damage."

It's just about making sure that the Ranger + Pet are collectively dealing & sustain just as much damage as anything else, within reason of differences between class roles.

And on a side note, I'd like to very seriously point out to everyone that regardless of how people feel about Ranger in terms of balance, the play dynamic right now with how this current build functions is like model ranger play for any game. Core Ranger right now feels the way that it always should have felt. The importance of the Ranger Pet and the chemistry & combo use of skills/attacks coordinated is like spot on for how the class should feel. In years past, the pet was not nearly as important and often was of no consequence if it walked around dead the whole match. The way it is mechanically right now, Core Ranger has serious flavor, and Arenanet should give some extra try-hard to preserve that.

[Ragnar.4257]

You're massively over-estimating how quickly pets die.

Sure, in a mid-fight with 5 players pumping out AoEs.

But 1v1..... I play Berserker Core Guardian with GS, all Zeal+Radiance damage modifiers, basically as glassy as any build can get. It still takes 10-12 hits to kill a sodding bird. Because Troll-Unguent is a thing.

Last night I did whirling-wrath, on a rock-gazelle, didn't even go below 75% HP (reminder, super-glassy 11k HP build). I then did a wombo-combo on the Ranger, which downed him in 2 seconds....... and the gazelle standing right next to him just walks out of it still with 50% HP.

Next game, in a 1v2 against a Druid and a DH, I execute a burst that insta-downs the DH, the Druid's smokescale is right there next to him (because of course it's sticking to me like glue), and it walks out with 50% HP (and no it wasn't doing smoke-assault).

Have all of this on video on my hard-drive, will upload a compilation of this BS when I can be bothered to edit it all together.

I don't disagree that Ranger is struggling to find a spot in tournaments. But this "just focus the pet lol" argument is stupid. It deserves as much respect as "just dodge" or "just cleanse".

[Eurantien.4632]

@"Ragnar.4257" said:You're massively over-estimating how quickly pets die.

Sure, in a mid-fight with 5 players pumping out AoEs.

But 1v1..... I play Berserker Core Guardian with GS, all Zeal+Radiance damage modifiers, basically as glassy as any build can get. It still takes 10-12 hits to kill a sodding bird. Because Troll-Unguent is a thing.

Last night I did whirling-wrath, on a rock-gazelle, didn't even go below 75% HP (reminder, super-glassy 11k HP build). I then did a wombo-combo on the Ranger, which downed him in 2 seconds....... and the gazelle standing right next to him just walks out of it still with 50% HP.

Next game, in a 1v2 against a Druid and a DH, I execute a burst that insta-downs the DH, the Druid's smokescale is right there next to him (because of course it's sticking to me like glue), and it walks out with 50% HP (and no it wasn't doing smoke-assault).

Have all of this on video on my hard-drive, will upload a compilation of this BS when I can be bothered to edit it all together.

I don't disagree that Ranger is struggling to find a spot in tournaments. But this "just focus the pet lol" argument is stupid. It deserves as much respect as "just dodge" or "just cleanse".

Then that's on you misplaying cause menders guard can kill it lol. Also, you arent supposed to be killing smokescale or gazelle. You only need to kill the pets that do decent damage, the birds and the tiger. Everything else is ignorable.

[FeelsFromEarth.5046]

Oh how the tables have turned.

SB is responsible for the slight relevancy Ranger has left.

Necro is so beefed up & as a result overplayed, ANet matchmaking doesn’t even know how to handle them all. In the last 24 hours i’ve played 4 or 5 games where the other team has 2 necros.

That’s double the reaper. Double the fear. Double the minions etc.

There isn’t enough condi cleanse, vigor, protection, blocks, or anything else to cope with the necro pandemic.

& Rangers pet should have the best AI by far. The i in AI last i checked represents intelligence which a reanimated hunk of flesh that the devs even programmed the necro to make remarks about how short lived & mass produced they are, should not be anywhere near as intelligent as the loyal devoted & free thinking beast that is the Rangers pet. Nor should it be comparable to sophisticated machinery of the Engineer. Minions should run around like flesh eating brainless corpses because that’s what they are.

Intelligence should = Ranger Pet > Turret > Minions

Altho none of that matters because Core Ranger has been made irrelevant & you only see SB who do 99% of DPS in Beastmode so there you have it, no more pet. Even the rare occasion SB does have their pet out it’s usually something like Siamoth for Forage & they cant swap while in combat so the complaints of 2 pets being OP have been satisfied, albeit in a roundabout way, they’re still satisfied.

Just to paint a little bit more of the picture, it is true if i for some one off reason as a SB send my pet after you it can’t be ignored. But you can’t ignore a horde of minions either, since the only effective SB is pure glass. Survival is entirely a matter of skill to identify what your opponent is going to come at you with, then time your defensive skill usage while trying to gauge the cool down duration to when when the next burst is coming, and manage your vigor so to survive cool down periods.

Keep in mind, you’ll have to manage an attack in the midst of all this too, especially if playing against a necro & their mindless minions who seem to swarm you as you try to overcome CC.

And I’ll finish with this.

We’re talking team games folks. When a SB gets in an unexpected LB burst on someone dueling for mid and has the last arrows in Rapid Fire hitting around 8k-9k (under right circumstances it could be higher) then interrupts the angry opponents pursuit with a knock back to rains arrows from the sky with might & fury stacks, most people are going down. After that long range burst and AoE melt enough health bars enough times you become targeted by 3-4 players easily. If you’re good youll be a target by the time the initial battle for the nodes is over.

”But the same thing happens to Necro when it causes hell so what’s ur point?”

Not quite. Only experienced/coordinated teams focus target and bring down necro. Your average player has been destroyed without so much as scratching the necro that ppl will completely ignore ur requests to assist target.

The whole Necros are targeted is it a tall tale unless you’re playing amongst above average competition. Truth is they’re avoided.

Crazy thing is. I write this less than 3 days after a balance patch so it’s not like change is coming anytime soon.

The End.

[Jekkt.6045]

@FeelsFromEarth.5046 said:Altho none of that matters because Core Ranger has been made irrelevant

you know that core ranger is the 3rd best side noder right? should be even better now after condi rev sustain nerf.

[zoopop.5630]

@Jekkt.6045 said:

@FeelsFromEarth.5046 said:Altho none of that matters because Core Ranger has been made irrelevant

you know that core ranger is the 3rd best side noder right? should be even better now after condi rev sustain nerf.

careful don't say that to open in the forums. People would start abusing that class/spec again.