Reasons to balance for top Tier only

[Avatar.3568]

git gud. Balance discussions can only work when there players have reached a point when they uses their dodges correctly, don't spam their condi cleanse for every single stack of burn, etc... This are all player based errors what can not be discussed with some kind of "UHHHHH CLASS X Y KILLED ME WITH X Y" while you was doing shit.

this is not Pve, we can't scale the players down because reason 1

high end top tier players R55, Team USA etc... Have waaaaaay more knowledge than the Avarage Plat player and a hole human brain more knowledge than Pve plebs, so they can make decisions and think about things that some of you never heard about, just like politicians

(edit) there will be always a person that is better than someone else, somethings are rock, paper, Shotgun things, some player skill and mostly not unbalance

[Happy Yes.1453]

The implication of balancing for lower tiers - ie. for people who don't know how to fully play their spec - is that some stuff will be broken for the higher tiers who do know how to play it.

[Aktium.9506]

Having builds that completely wreck lower tiers but are balanced or even somewhat weak in the highest tiers is pretty unhealthy for the playerbase tho

The vast majority of players won't power through it until they get good and they learn to counter it. They'll just think the balance is super bad and not PvP instead.

[Happy Yes.1453]

Dumbing down the game because some players are too lazy to learn hasn't really been a great succes for games in the past though

[Avatar.3568]

@"Aktium.9506" said:Having builds that completely wreck lower tiers but are balanced or even somewhat weak in the highest tiers is pretty unhealthy for the playerbase tho

The vast majority of players won't power through it until they get good and they learn to counter it. They'll just think the balance is super bad and not PvP instead.

Yeah but on starcraft 2, as an example, you have mostly the same thing. In lower leagues are things like Ling rushes and mass void ray totally common, and some flame "this is op" but it's an totally learn 2 play issue And trust me, if people want to stay at the game, they need to improve.

Imagine we would still nerf thief, even it is not necessary but there are still player that complain

[Fueki.4753]

Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

[Avatar.3568]

@Fueki.4753 said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

[Fueki.4753]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

The top percentage will always find a way to exploit mechanics that work fine for the majority.So, in idea to balance around the top percentage, you'd nerf these mechanics and make them useless for way more people than the number of people who abused them.I don't think it's fair to nerf the majority just because a minuscule amount of people produced unintended numbers.

[Avatar.3568]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

The top percentage will always find a way to exploit mechanics that work fine for the majority.So, in idea to balance around the top percentage, you'd nerf these mechanics and make them useless for way more people than the number of people who abused them.I don't think it's fair to nerf the majority just because a minuscule amount of people produced unintended numbers.

Yes making things useless is exactly what we don't need, that's how to terminate viraity and when ever someone is getting better, that guy will See how much those direct unbalance things helped the game

[Starbreaker.6507]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

That's pretty much this section of the forum in a nutshell.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

"Hey, all these idiots keep holding the baseball bat by the wrong end...""Then make both ends skinny so everybody will be able to play."

This is why balancing isn't geared towards the low tiers.

[Poledra Val.1490]

The problem is Anet will always cater towards the majority, maybe in pvp terms they could cater to the top 250-500+ players in pvp but in truth its a miniscule amount of people when you consider the big picture of how many people in actuality play pvp currently.

Here is the bottom line, Anet's aim as well as giving content is without a doubt to make money and it will aim to please the majority to bring in revenue. Hence the balance will almost always cater towards the casual ppv'er.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

Whats more important?

95% of the playerbase having fun who are also the pleople who keep the game alive?ORThe 5% of "Top players".

Answer? Both.

But the 95% having fun MUST come first.

[Avatar.3568]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:Balancing around the top percentage would result in removing balance for people around the average, which are a significantly bigger number.Just because something works for a top percentage player with 1/10 of the average human reaction time, doesn't mean it works for everyone or even the majority.It should be a no-brainer to design a game for as much people as possible, not for a very small minority.

So you think it's fair to directly unbalance things because the majority of the game is unable to play their chars correctly?

Whats more important?

95% of the playerbase having fun who are also the pleople who keep the game alive?ORThe 5% of "Top players".

Answer? Both.

But the 95% having fun MUST come first.

"Player vs. Player in Guild Wars 2 is an exciting game mode that pits you against other players from around the world in the ultimate test of skill." - the first sentence of "new in pvp? Start here"

Is there anywhere standing for 95% of the unabled playerbase? No?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think we should look at this as a team game and buff mechanics that require team work, instead of every build being a one man army. those types of builds are what fuel imbalance and people not wanting to play. if you create teamwork mechanics (such as combo fields) that are not only a boost but borderline required (don't want to over emphasize on any one thing since it creates new imbalances) then better teams and players will always come out on top while those less coordinated have no excuse.

on an individual level, address windows of opportunity. trevor on his post about druid mentioned this; when you enter CA you lose all offensive pressure (as well as defensive, heals are support), and then are wide open to attack. when looking at the past staff/ staff teef, there were not many times they were vulnerable and were thus nerfed. so both OP and UP builds should be viewed this way and adjusted accordingly.

[KrHome.1920]

The game is not super complex. Balancing for the top tier is just balancing for players that:

• 1) know their own skills
• 2) know the skills of their target
• 3) dodge and cleanse the skills that are gamechangers in their specific matchup
• 4) adapt if number 3) is not enough

Number 1) and 2) are class and game basics.The average gold division player is out at number 2).95% of the playerbase is out at number 3).

It does not make sense to balance the game for people that don't even know how the build that kills them works (aka. the average gold division player).

[Virdo.1540]

Balancing certain builds because some players know how to use it to make it broken strong is a bad thing to do. Every MMORPG has players that are doing with the same things way better than everyone else. Balancing things that many ppl use only cuz of one wouldnt work.

[Exedore.6320]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:Having builds that completely wreck lower tiers but are balanced or even somewhat weak in the highest tiers is pretty unhealthy for the playerbase tho

The vast majority of players won't power through it until they get good and they learn to counter it. They'll just think the balance is super bad and not PvP instead.

Yeah but on starcraft 2, as an example, you have mostly the same thing. In lower leagues are things like Ling rushes and mass void ray totally common, and some flame "this is op" but it's an totally learn 2 play issue And trust me, if people want to stay at the game, they need to improve.

Imagine we would still nerf thief, even it is not necessary but there are still player that complainIn the early days of Starcraft2, Blizzard made some nerfs specifically to address balance issues at lower tiers and in 2v2 (not the primary game mode). They continue to design with those in mind, though the precision tuning is for top players.

The test of whether something is balanced below the top tier comes down to whether executing it and countering it require similar levels of skill and understanding. Turret engineer from core is a great example. Top players loved seeing one because winning against it was easy. But players below that level dreaded it. The engineer simply had to copy the build, run to a node, drop their turrets, and press buttons. It didn't really matter which, they'd eventually win the fight. The combination of heavy CC and damage made it impossible to kill the engineer or the turrets before they killed you. The counter was either coordination of abilities, heavy AoE from range (pretty much limited to staff ele at the time), or just avoiding that node altogether and playing a 5v4 on the other two nodes. Team coordination and map awareness were not skills the turret engi build needed to succeed, making the payoff disproportionate to the work.

[Avatar.3568]

Tf just kill the turrets or run Away

[Luthan.5236]

Make 2 teams with the exact builds fighting each other. Then it will always be balanced perfectly regardless of how much you change at the skills, CD and damage coefficients.

Make 2 teams that play totally different classes (well with only 9 existing classes let the last one use a different elite spec and an opposite build) and always someone will complain about balancing regardless of what you do.

[Brimstone Jack.3462]

The argument here boils down to how low of a skill ceiling you should have. PvP always has a steep learning curve. But when you become proficient, skills should be such that more skilled players get the most out of them. That requires a high skill ceiling. That's why they balance around the top players. Skill levels vary drastically at other levels of play. You don't want them balancing around silver league. Trust me.

[Aktium.9506]

@Exedore.6320 said:Turret engineer from core is a great example.Even higher tier players could get exasperated by the build at times to be fair. It was kinda like core signet nec bunker is now, except capable of getting kills. I remember getting together with 5 friends and we queued as 5 turret engis while also abusing the bug that let you place turrets in the air so it was impossible to melee them.

There was a lot of salt. Good times.

[Shao.7236]

@"Avatar.3568" said:

• git gud. Balance discussions can only work when there players have reached a point when they uses their dodges correctly, don't spam their condi cleanse for every single stack of burn, etc... This are all player based errors what can not be discussed with some kind of "UHHHHH CLASS X Y KILLED ME WITH X Y" while you was doing kitten.this is not Pve, we can't scale the players down because reason 1
• high end top tier players R55, Team USA etc... Have waaaaaay more knowledge than the Avarage Plat player and a hole human brain more knowledge than Pve plebs, so they can make decisions and think about things that some of you never heard about, just like politicians
• (edit) there will be always a person that is better than someone else, somethings are rock, paper, Shotgun things, some player skill and mostly not unbalance

I disagree with the top tier players having more knowledge, most of it is not even knowledge. It's abusing what overperforms in a circlejerk rather than have some form of identity with your class and show that you know it AND that you're good at it no matter how busted something else can be. These people aren't winners or to be considered pros, they're just as comparable as the trending tab on Youtube so that you can somewhat keep up with the game cringe. Nothing short of manipulation of their ratings either by playing on alt accounts to sooth their need for the game rather than actually play on their main and assert that they are actually consistently good by risking their skill rating.

I find it impossible to socialize with any of them aside a few exceptions because they don't aspire respect for anyone but those who feed their own ego. Whether you have factual proof down right to winning fights against them, they will not even consider saying that it's a good play, anything that doesn't fit their own picture which is usually the metaslavery will be considered cringe, whether it's clever, skillful, thought provoking or not.

Top tier is ego wars, forget about them. You're a hipster for not playing meta and even if you're good at what you're doing and obliterating, only the people with critical thinking will actually give you some form of respect even if they don't like you. This isn't the case up there, it's a big waste of time. Believe me, I've had their hateful discussions left and right to prove that.

[Xenon.4537]

"If you can't play correctly, then git gud or leave pvp"Okay well... don't be surprised when people leave and the game mode becomes a ghost town lol.

[Leonidrex.5649]

you balance for both, if you fail you try untill you succeed, if you cant they you should find another job.