PVP is withering

[otto.5684]

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@"Supreme.3164" said:Seriously.....

-GW2 community : "nerf this! nerf that! nerf this more more!

-Anet balance team : "we should adjust accor......"

-GW2 community :" wth just nerf nerf, nerf , too much dmg, too much sustain, why me die? just nerf nerf"

-Anet balance team :" ..ok sure...let's nerf what you say should be nerfed..."

-GW2 community : "omg why did you nerf, game is ruined, it's over omg!

-Anet balance team :".................

This is supposed to be a

videogame

....where people go to have fun....

Relatively speaking, I think the former balance team is much better than the current one. At least the former team will try to add new designs

I strongly agree. The current sPvP dev team is just... bad. SPvP now is incredibly boring. There was no reason for the reset patch, and the balance has major issues on fundamental level. These tiny changes Anet are doing are useless. The foundation is rotten to its core that it needs a full redesign.

I don’t think that will happen. We are in sunk fallacy territory now. I do not think sPvP will ever get out.

[Aridon.8362]

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:PVP of this game is like an ecological park. every skills are balanced against each other.After continuous nerf. the whole ecosystem has serious problems. nerf doesn't solve anything until the whole ecosystem diesThis team will only use nerf to solve every problems. If it can't be solved, it will be deleted directly. I don't think this team is incompetent

Well you don't exactly win with a good build the problem is the strategy. I've recently began to figure out how to win. And on the balance thing, I feel you're right that nerfs don't really do much.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@ferbz.6987 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Well although I'm sure balance plays a large part in the current sad population of pvp I believe the other culprits are lack of any new game modes or new mechanics in current game modes pvp/wvw. U can only play the same conquest and wvw blob/jump a solo pug for so long before it gets boring asf, add horrendous balancing and u get a low population even during a time most people are stuck at home. I got about 2 rounds of pvp tonight and one blob fight in wvw before I jumped into ff14 for the rest of the night ya know to experience some content lol.

For real? FFXIV is your sad excuse of content. You do realize that raids are the same kitten but different color? You do realize that ffxiv combat mechanics are probably one of the most boring out there. This game was released in 2012.. I'm sure you have over 1000 hrs played, please tell me what other game has brought up this much value to you. Anyway go take a break, it is good to take breaks sometimes, after all burnout is an actual thing.

Lol wow chill gw2 fanboy. Dont get all mad at the mention of another game lmao gw2 isnt ur gf/bf im insulting here. The pve and ow in ff14 stomps gw2 hard imo and that's subjective so relax. I've played gw2 6 yrs now and haven't bothered to do all the living worlds stories and only finished personal story on one of 12 toons cuz I personally cant stand this games pve where as I get completely drawn in and addicted to ff14 story and open world. I've only played gw2 all these years for the pvp and those are reasons I feel the population is so low so... .And further gw2 pve isnt winning any gaming awards for its expacs unlike the aforementioned.

[Emapudapus.1307]

For me PvP team at the moment is doing incredible job, maybe could do more frequent patches for certain things but ok.But for only balancing pvp trough number changes you can only do so much. What for me is the thing that is breaking the game is proffesion design team. WIth their addition trough expansions and dumbing down the playstiles, with previous balances and redesigns and one skill does it all and spam incouraging, they are destrtoying the soul this game once had, the complexity and tactical/strategical aspect it once had.Ofc there were always balance issues, but if core proffesion design is intriguing its much easyer to ignore it and play further. While even if its perfectly balanced, if core aspect of proffesions is bad its still bad experience and you will stop playing.Conquest as itself is complex enaugh to not get stale, maybe adition of 2v2 isnt bad, but if conquest remains only gamemode i am ok with it.Tldr: Profesion design/redesign (team) is the real reason why pvp is dying, pvp balance team is doing atm good job.

[ferbz.6987]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ferbz.6987 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Well although I'm sure balance plays a large part in the current sad population of pvp I believe the other culprits are lack of any new game modes or new mechanics in current game modes pvp/wvw. U can only play the same conquest and wvw blob/jump a solo pug for so long before it gets boring asf, add horrendous balancing and u get a low population even during a time most people are stuck at home. I got about 2 rounds of pvp tonight and one blob fight in wvw before I jumped into ff14 for the rest of the night ya know to experience some content lol.

For real? FFXIV is your sad excuse of content. You do realize that raids are the same kitten but different color? You do realize that ffxiv combat mechanics are probably one of the most boring out there. This game was released in 2012.. I'm sure you have over 1000 hrs played, please tell me what other game has brought up this much value to you. Anyway go take a break, it is good to take breaks sometimes, after all burnout is an actual thing.

Lol wow chill gw2 fanboy. Dont get all mad at the mention of another game lmao gw2 isnt ur gf/bf im insulting here. The pve and ow in ff14 stomps gw2 hard imo and that's subjective so relax. I've played gw2 6 yrs now and haven't bothered to do all the living worlds stories and only finished personal story on one of 12 toons cuz I personally cant stand this games pve where as I get completely drawn in and addicted to ff14 story and open world. I've only played gw2 all these years for the pvp and those are reasons I feel the population is so low so... .And further gw2 pve isnt winning any gaming awards for its expacs unlike the aforementioned.

Each game has its pros and cons. Pve is good in FFXIV but PVP on the other hand is almost non existent. I took a 2 year break from GW2 and played ESO for that time, I just came back and the game feels somewhat fresh again and population feels the same both wvw and pvp. in fact both my wvw guilds grew substantially and I see more queues over the weekend than before (blame covid19 maybe). Is there any metrics to show gw2 population changes in the past 2 years?

Lastly, FFXIV only won awards on the last expansion? I forget, I also played it for quite a while.

It's okay to take a break. Good luck in FFXIV

[Teb.6980]

Two words. Stunlock condibomb.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The pvp in gw2 may not have ever been high skill but was at least somewhat skillful but thanks to the competant team at anet and the skill design team that works at a pace of a handicapped snail that has a totally disregard for half the traits and skills being unused and useless cuz it's not like it's their job to rework em,especially over the last how many years while the community constantly gives feed back on them.Now gw2 has amounted to read up the most broken high sustain condi build and spam spam spam, I'm sure no ones surprised the pvp population is so low the matchmaker algorithm doesn't even work right currently cuz of how low its sunk lol.Glhf :)

[Smoosh.2718]

As much as I love PvP. Condition damage puts me off. It kills all enjoyment of the game mode.

[Kuma.1503]

@Strider.7849 said:PvP as a mode is a boring/stale game. Rotate and hold points. You can do everything right in the game, getting top kills, never dying, have all or nearly all top stats, and still lose the game. In my opinion PvP (as a mode) isn't real PvP and it's why this mode is dying - add on to this the removal of build diversity and options - it's just straight boring. To be honest I don't know what most of you even like about that environment anymore, WvW is in my opinion far more fun and diverse.

You also have the very small vocal player base that enjoys repeating this cycling of holding points and relying on random players they are joined to, to do the same - consistently crying for nerfs. They don't want things toned down for the health of the game or changed, they want total destruction of anything that stands a chance against what they play or is possibly a direct counter. Simply look at all the QQ threads posted on nerf this or that - let's be real here there has been maybe a handful of builds since this game was released that were OP - everything else has had counters or ways of beating them. Unfortunately anet is listening to these whiners and the platform we give them to cry on is accomplishing the destruction of this mode.

The cries for nerfs/people claiming X is OP and busted etc will never stop. Stop and think about what you guys are going to accomplish for the future of the game by doing that. When you remove all your enemies you will only be fighting clones of your class, your queue times will be ridiculous with an increasing number of games that have major skill gaps.

The people I feel most sorry for are the ones who invest themselves in maining a profession and through repeated nerfing/changes their fun has been removed from the game mode. The theory crafters are by large gone from PvP as well since choices are pretty much decided for you with optimal trait choices/lines.

I think most of what I wrote here is something you all can understand on some level, every single one of you that main a profession or did main one, have seen very destructive changes to your preferred classes that have ruined your fun. I think rather that allowing people to QQ on the forums like they do now, y'all need to tell them how they can improve, how to counter X build(s), and their rank in the mode should be displayed when posting. Lastly, to stop supporting these revenge nerf threads that are eliminating diversity.

I cannot agree more. I would like to prevent this from happening the most, because I do enjoy this game, and I would hate to see anyone's class destroyed for no reason other than forum QQ.

Unfortunately, trying to bring people around is a tough endeavor. Most any of us can hope for is to change a few people's minds, and perhaps, those people my influence a few others. Our PvP community is small, so change enough people's minds, and... perhaps we can avert course.

[mortrialus.3062]

@PLS.4095 said:

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:PVP of this game is like an ecological park. every skills are balanced against each other.After continuous nerf. the whole ecosystem has serious problems. nerf doesn't solve anything until the whole ecosystem diesThis team will only use nerf to solve every problems. If it can't be solved, it will be deleted directly. I don't think this team is incompetent

Since big balance patch pvp population is higher.The actual balance is waaaaay better than POF release because they nerf the powercreep.

No sense post.

You can visually see the population in decline. The top 250 is a static number that represents the top performing of the game's bell curve. During the earlier Path of Fire days the top 250 bottomed out in Platinum 2. In the past few seasons we see the bottom end of the top 250 dip lower and lower. It's frequently hitting gold 3 in NA and staying there for the entire season, maybe, MAYBE climbing up to low Plat 1 towards the end the season.

This mean top 250 makes up a significantly larger portion of the PvP populations bell curve. Ergo, the PvP population has very visibly declined and the megabalance patch hasn't bumped up numbers in any noticable way.

[Arukayos.1798]

@Smoosh.2718 said:As much as I love PvP. Condition damage puts me off. It kills all enjoyment of the game mode.

There's a bit of an ecosystem there, though. I hate being condibombed as much as the next guy - especially when my various cleanses are on CD, it feels like going down without much tactile counterplay. But condi builds keep bunkers in check, otherwise you'd see toughness-stacking afk-on-node builds nearly every game. The combat system design from a ground-up level would require a holistic rework, otherwise, in its current state, the game can't survive without condi builds.

[Zaraki.5784]

(PVP's) Death...good.[Read with Risen's voice]

[ferbz.6987]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@PLS.4095 said:

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:PVP of this game is like an ecological park. every skills are balanced against each other.After continuous nerf. the whole ecosystem has serious problems. nerf doesn't solve anything until the whole ecosystem diesThis team will only use nerf to solve every problems. If it can't be solved, it will be deleted directly. I don't think this team is incompetent

Since big balance patch pvp population is higher.The actual balance is waaaaay better than POF release because they nerf the powercreep.

No sense post.

You can visually see the population in decline. The top 250 is a static number that represents the top performing of the game's bell curve. During the earlier Path of Fire days the top 250 bottomed out in Platinum 2. In the past few seasons we see the bottom end of the top 250 dip lower and lower. It's frequently hitting gold 3 in NA and staying there for the entire season, maybe, MAYBE climbing up to low Plat 1 towards the end the season.

This mean top 250 makes up a significantly larger portion of the PvP populations bell curve. Ergo, the PvP population has very visibly declined and the megabalance patch hasn't bumped up numbers in any noticable way.

Population has been in steep decline since 2012. Anyway, I do get faster queue pops compared to ESO bgs and FFXIV bgs.

[Tayga.3192]

PvP is dying since 1000 BC, somehow still alive.

[ferbz.6987]

@Tayga.3192 said:PvP is dying since 1000 BC, somehow still alive.

Lol, good one

[mistsim.2748]

@Strider.7849 said:PvP as a mode is a boring/stale game. Rotate and hold points. You can do everything right in the game, getting top kills, never dying, have all or nearly all top stats, and still lose the game. In my opinion PvP (as a mode) isn't real PvP and it's why this mode is dying - add on to this the removal of build diversity and options - it's just straight boring. To be honest I don't know what most of you even like about that environment anymore, WvW is in my opinion far more fun and diverse.

You also have the very small vocal player base that enjoys repeating this cycling of holding points and relying on random players they are joined to, to do the same - consistently crying for nerfs. They don't want things toned down for the health of the game or changed, they want total destruction of anything that stands a chance against what they play or is possibly a direct counter. Simply look at all the QQ threads posted on nerf this or that - let's be real here there has been maybe a handful of builds since this game was released that were OP - everything else has had counters or ways of beating them. Unfortunately anet is listening to these whiners and the platform we give them to cry on is accomplishing the destruction of this mode.

The cries for nerfs/people claiming X is OP and busted etc will never stop. Stop and think about what you guys are going to accomplish for the future of the game by doing that. When you remove all your enemies you will only be fighting clones of your class, your queue times will be ridiculous with an increasing number of games that have major skill gaps.

The people I feel most sorry for are the ones who invest themselves in maining a profession and through repeated nerfing/changes their fun has been removed from the game mode. The theory crafters are by large gone from PvP as well since choices are pretty much decided for you with optimal trait choices/lines.

I think most of what I wrote here is something you all can understand on some level, every single one of you that main a profession or did main one, have seen very destructive changes to your preferred classes that have ruined your fun. I think rather that allowing people to QQ on the forums like they do now, y'all need to tell them how they can improve, how to counter X build(s), and their rank in the mode should be displayed when posting. Lastly, to stop supporting these revenge nerf threads that are eliminating diversity.

I've mained ranger since vanilla, arguably the worst time for ranger, and been fine since. I remember just pre-HoT, there were 2 competitive builds. Now there are 3, and would be more if druid got a few tweaks. In other words, I think players maining a prof have always been content. If a nerf comes, they make up for it with skill and knowledge.

Except Mesmer players. Mesmer is in a really rough shape right now, but this is quite unusual.

I think GW2 has always been about dueling. They just need to embrace deathmatch and balance around it. Stronghold was a huge waste of time and resources - you guys remember how that bombed? Man, it was such a let down.

I think we've all had it up to here with Control. 8 years of Control. Please stop. Make team Deathmatch the baseline mode.

[Smoosh.2718]

Imagine if they nuked all the amulets down to an option of 3. DPS, Defence, Support.No cross over amulets allowing both DPS and Support, or DPS and Defence. If condi is to still be a thing in this game, strip it of its defence to keep it in line with the DPS role. Can kill but easy to kill.

At least then we can get some sort of a balance point to work from.

[Bunny.9834]

the PvP team needs to wake up or play this game. It’s worse than before.

[Tayga.3192]

@mistsim.2748 said:Except Mesmer players. Mesmer is in a really rough shape right now, but this is quite unusual.

Warrior and mesmer are plain bad rn.As a mesmer main, at this point I want new toys to play with. I want glamor trait back, I want better heal skills (replace mantra heal with glamor heal maybe?).

I think GW2 has always been about dueling. They just need to embrace deathmatch and balance around it.1v1 is the best game mode tbh. Nearly everyone regularly playing pvp is addicted to dueling.

[JTGuevara.9018]

@Shagie.7612 said:It's partly in what they're working on, but honestly MMO PvP just isn't a popular subset of the genre. Heck, MMOs in general are pretty stagnant, let alone their PvP.They're all decreasing in PvP participation.

MMO players by and large aren't interested in PvP and never will be. That's just not why they play them.New blood doesn't come in because younger people don't really play them either. At least not in any significant enough number to matter.All you've got is an aging playerbase that isn't interested in PvP, and starts dropping games anyways as they get older.

I think that's a lot bigger factor of PvP losing numbers, especially in an older game like GW2.You start adding on things like people getting tired of the game no matter how good it is and all the other reasons people stop playing and it's really not a surprise they all struggle to pull numbers into a competitive mode.

Yeah...MMOs are DONE. I think the magic has worn off for people in this post-WoW age. I know it has for me. It seemed like a good idea to stick massive amounts of players in a persistent world and hope that they can coexist, but now...not so much! You know!..The Internet and all...Even with a massive shakeup in MMOs, if even possible, the fundamental problem with MMOs will always be there: they don't end and they have to designed to get people to keep playing or else the game dies. Yeah, they won't die entirely, but let's not lie to ourselves...the good old days of MMOs aren't coming back.

As a primarily pvp/wvw player, the recent major balance update is the primarily reason why I still even play this thing. As a player in my 30s, some of us don't age out of games entirely, but go into different genres like RTSes, or single-player. I also find that the older I get, the less patience I have with people in general, especially in a pvp environment. This game's atrocious matchmaking system doesn't help either. If anything, the community did more to ruin pvp than ANet ever did. This whole push towards e-sports and league was the community's doing, not ANet. ANet just catered to that.

There's also the fact that gw2 is almost 8 years old. I don't know about you folks, but 8 years is a long time! I got other games to play and I'm not getting any younger! As with all of you!

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Smoosh.2718 said:Imagine if they nuked all the amulets down to an option of 3. DPS, Defence, Support.No cross over amulets allowing both DPS and Support, or DPS and Defence. If condi is to still be a thing in this game, strip it of its defence to keep it in line with the DPS role. Can kill but easy to kill.

At least then we can get some sort of a balance point to work from.

So glad people like you don't have any say in this...

[Hammerheart.1426]

No one wants to address the biggest problem, the top sPvP players.

They don't want change, they only cry about class balance. They aren't interested in improving the overall health of the game because they are too busy grinding rank and doing AT's, and enjoying their positions at the top of the heap. If you want to really, genuinely improve the PvP in this game, you need radical changes. Nearly a complete overhaul of mechanics, the pvp team needs to be able to do more than just adjust values of skills because they can't even touch talent trees. Conquest is a tried and played out game mode, but the most popular because the alternative is just poorly implemented. But as long as the top PvP players keep playing, there is zero incentive for Anet to take the game to the next competitive level. I don't believe it was ever in their vision to be competitive esports game.

GW2 will ALWAYS be a victim of stagnation and acceptance by the community. Anet doesn't give 2 shits about sPvP improvement at all. If it did it would've made changes years ago instead of it being exactly the same experience (minus elite specs and balance patches etc etc).

Give up, it won't ever change. They'll placate the community with small changes here and there, but the game won't ever be esports worthy, which I guess the community is fine with. GW2 does a lot of things right, but PvP is pure stagnation.

[Dadnir.5038]

The issue isn't an issue of balance per se, it's an issue of design. Each profession have it's share of broken designs that no amount of number tweaks will ever manage to balance.

The worse point is that among the years, for the sake of "balance", ANet chose to accentuate the use of some of these broken designs in order to try and bring some professions into "competivity".

As a consequence, things have degenerated to this mess that few are satisfied with.

Edit: A prime example of that is Boon corruption. Up to HoT, Boon corruption was a nice tool the necromancer had but with pretty limited access making it a strategic ressource. Around the time HoT came, the necromancer was in a drought in sPvP and desperately needed a bit of help. ANet chose to flood it with boon corruption at this point. The effects of such choice was mainly overshadowed by the more efficient reaper until PoF and scourge appeared with a second flood of boon corruption. Obvioulsy it created discontent but did truly answered the reason of this discontent? Did ANet even consider that accentuating the Boon corruption design might not have been the brigthest idea? I doubt it. They didn't go back on a balance between boon riping and boon corruption, they just tweaked numbers blindly until the unrest somehow died down.

And this is but an example amongst many. The problem is here, accentuating broken designs have led professions to be imbalanced at their very core and there is no hope in properly fixing that with numbers tweaks. The massive damage reduction in sPvP have generated at most a week of happiness and then the unrest came back.