When we nerf thief...no one considers this

[Teratus.2859]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

Because none of those things allow you to turn invisible, heal and buff and then blast someone while they can not see or predict your attacks to defend against them or interupt them.All of those things can be countered or avoided regularly too, stealth largely cannot and when it can it's only for a very short period of time and the thief's mobility can easily allow them to get away for a short time to wait out the reveal as well.

You want thives to be able to duel better and I agree, they should be able to.. but they need to loose in combat stealth to justify it.The class is nerfed down so hard because Stealth is just that broken and easy to abuse.Thieves focus should be on evasion instead.. making the class highly skill based to use effectively.. not rely on a cheap and broken stealth mechanic to be little more than a troll class that excells at annoying people and little else.

This has always been the main problem with thieves.. stealth and mobility are their only real strength and at the same time that combo is the main thing that's ruining the class everywhere else because it's just to excessive and cheap.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

Evade spam is a significantly more "toxic" mechanic then stealth and no one can tell me otherwise.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

Any thief using shortbow 5 is a roamer spec. And due to the initiative system, there is no point in using 2 weaponsets anyway, so every thief plays shortbow. So, no, thief cant duel. It also doesnt have high burst, or even medium burst.

Initiative on weapon swap, other traits and so on. Also, different weapons give different options. If you don't know how to hit or do damage that's your own problem.

Quick Pockets wasnt even good before, it sure as hell isnt now. It only saw play in a dumb staff/staff bunker build. Different options are meaningless if youre forced to go for and stick with one of them anyway. Thief cant duel people. Its not supposed to, after all. Thief has 1 spec, which is shortbow 5 + whatever collection of other stuff you want to play, and everything else isnt even remotely viable.

You should practice more and get better. I can't talk with someone who doesn't understand basic things.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Stealth is poorly done in this game anyway. In the other NCsoft game, Lineage 2, stealth is a lot less spammy and has a little counterplay in the fact that if yyou take any amount of damage, you are taken out of stealth. In overwatch, there's even more counterplay to stealth (from Sombra), not only is stealthr emvoed when you take damage but you have to self remove it and be held to a quick delay while announcing your presence before you can deal damage and you cannot easily re-stealth in the middle of a fight, you'd have to disengage entirely and stealth.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

Because none of those things allow you to turn invisible, heal and buff and then blast ...

I stopped at "blast" someone ... "noodle" someone is actual the case.

Classes r still to mobile to play the pure decap role and make profit out off it, +1 takes forever since bunki bonki and noodle damage. Nerf mobility across the board, BUFF TEEF or nerf Bunki Bonki

[Crab Fear.1624]

People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

[Fueki.4753]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

Thief Stealth skills could be reworked to grant a unique defense boon for a set duration instead of Stealth.Make that boon have 15% incoming damage and condi damage reduction and call it Shadow Armour or something.Once Shadow Armours wears off, Thieves get revealed for half a second, causing reveal traits to trigger.Then Arenanet would finally have a reason to rework the Deadeye Elite skill.Stealth Attacks would simply be gone or used during Shadow Armour.

And Stealth gets removed from the other professions, combo'ing in Smoke fields and Rune of the Trapper.Mass Invis and the Scrapper Elite would need to be changed though.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

Thief Stealth skills could be reworked to grant a unique defense boon for a set duration instead of Stealth.Make that boon have 15% incoming damage and condi damage reduction and call it Shadow Armour or something.Once Shadow Armours wears off, Thieves get revealed for half a second, causing reveal traits to trigger.Then Arenanet would finally have a reason to rework the Deadeye Elite skill.Stealth Attacks would simply be gone or used during Shadow Armour.

And Stealth gets removed from the other professions, combo'ing in Smoke fields and Rune of the Trapper.Mass Invis and the Scrapper Elite would need to be changed though.

I just got hit 8k with true shot by dh using trapper runes

[Teratus.2859]

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

Because none of those things allow you to turn invisible, heal and buff and then blast ...

I stopped at "blast" someone ... "noodle" someone is actual the case.

Classes r still to mobile to play the pure decap role and make profit out off it, +1 takes forever since bunki bonki and noodle damage. Nerf mobility across the board, BUFF TEEF or nerf Bunki Bonki

Blast doesn't mean one shot, just a significant amount of damage in a short time.Thief can do this, just not as well as it used to back when stealth ambush stunlock tactics was a god damn pestilence on thief builds.

Only thing they really struggle with are tankier builds which can absorb it.. which are more common these days than they used to be.Even then most thieves still have almost 100% flee success due to their unmatched mobility.

[Teratus.2859]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

[Buran.3796]

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

1) You really want to discuss damage negation? I suppose in your little bubble stealth is the only "way to avoid damage". But sure, whatever goes for anti-thief bias.

2) Oh, you mean, like, disengaging? Hmm, thief sure is the only class capable of doing that.

3) Blocking makes the majority of in-game skills useless, too. Should we be looking to nerf warrior and guardian based on that?

Take a look of how many seconds of block, evades or i-frames most of classes and builds can have in a minute and then look at how many seconds of stealth some classes and builds can stack in a minute. ArenaNet seems happy at putting a 1.75" cast time and huge call at Revenant's hammer #5 which essentially does 0 damage and meanwhile you can get out of stealth with 0 calls with any burst you want in stealth classes. Again, that's FINE for me and I have no problems with the "burst part" of stealth because you can gear and trait any class to endure the opening strike (and that has trade offs); my problem is with HAVING STEALTH AVAILABLE AGAIN to avoid the reprisal. On top of that, heavy armor classes have garbage ranged weapons, so it's very hard to pressure stealth users whick are constantly striking out of nowhere, blinking away, poking at range and entering stealth... The only reason due Eles, Necros, Warriors or Guardians have a place in Conquest is due the control point mechanics, otherwise the PvP would be a invisible fest with everyone hidding waiting for a foe reveal to land a 5 man burst on him.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

1) You really want to discuss damage negation? I suppose in your little bubble stealth is the only "way to avoid damage". But sure, whatever goes for anti-thief bias.

2) Oh, you mean, like, disengaging? Hmm, thief sure is the only class capable of doing that.

3) Blocking makes the majority of in-game skills useless, too. Should we be looking to nerf warrior and guardian based on that?

Take a look of how many seconds of block, evades or i-frames most of classes and builds can have in a minute and then look at how many seconds of stealth some classes and builds can stack in a minute.

And then take a look at how much damage the block, evade or i-frames prevented, and how much damage the stealth prevented. Hint: Its not gonna look god for the stealth.

ArenaNet seems happy at putting a 1.75" cast time and huge call at Revenant's hammer #5 which essentially does 0 damage and meanwhile you can get out of stealth with 0 calls with any burst you want in stealth classes. Again, that's FINE for me and I have no problems with the "burst part" of stealth because you can gear and trait any class to endure the opening strike (and that has trade offs); my problem is with HAVING STEALTH AVAILABLE AGAIN to avoid the reprisal.

Its an AoE knockdown skill. Thats why it has such a huge cast time. Though 1.75 is a bit much, even then. The burst part is still the only part of stealth thats a problem. Having stealth available again isnt a problem, mostly because in-combat stealth is so underpowered, you just dont use it. If you stealth up, you dont avoid the reprisal. You ensure your demise. If you want to avoid the reprisal, you do as any half-decent thief does, you swap to shortbow 5 and peace out.

On top of that, heavy armor classes have garbage ranged weapons, so it's very hard to pressure stealth users whick are constantly striking out of nowhere, blinking away, poking at range and entering stealth... The only reason due Eles, Necros, Warriors or Guardians have a place in Conquest is due the control point mechanics, otherwise the PvP would be a invisible fest with everyone hidding waiting for a foe reveal to land a 5 man burst on him.

Yeah, like DHs bow. Wait. Jokes aside, its really not hard to pressure them at all. If they hit you and you dont die, turn on them, and they will have to shortbow 5 out and wait until they can swap back. If for some inexplicable the thief is stupid enough to go into stealth mid-combat, just kill them. Hit them with burst and/or CC and watch as they get obliterated. Its also ironically the opposite of what you say. The only reason thief has a place in Conquest is due to the control points. Otherwise, thief would be completely unviable. Eles, Necros, Warriors or Guardians, they would still be good classes because they are good at fighting. Thief is not.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

Not knowing where someone is gives a form of advantage, for sure.Then again, so do plenty of other mechanics that the thief has no access to. What's the big deal between seeing someone using a Block or Invuln (and them using it to kite/wait for CD's) and being unable to do anything about it, compared to not seeing someone in stealth (and quite often seeing someone entering stealth, at least after initial engage...) where yes, they can kite and wait for CD's, but you can actually still damage them, reveal them and impair/counter them in other such ways..?

you are ignoring the problem. Despite it being spelled out by other. You can not do damage or reveal IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE THIEF IS NEARBY.

Thief jumps you out of stealth, spikes you, retreats into stealth AND THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

Oh great, now you use reveal - the thief is far enough away, just waits it out and strikes again.

STEALTH IS BROKEN AND MUST BE REMOVED.

It is the only option.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

Not knowing where someone is gives a form of advantage, for sure.Then again, so do plenty of other mechanics that the thief has no access to. What's the big deal between seeing someone using a Block or Invuln (and them using it to kite/wait for CD's) and being unable to do anything about it, compared to not seeing someone in stealth (and quite often seeing someone entering stealth, at least after initial engage...) where yes, they can kite and wait for CD's, but you can actually still damage them, reveal them and impair/counter them in other such ways..?

you are ignoring the problem. Despite it being spelled out by other. You can not do damage or reveal IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE THIEF IS NEARBY.

This part is true. There isnt much you can do when a thief, or any other class, jumps you out of stealth.

Thief jumps you out of stealth, spikes you, retreats into stealth AND THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

This part is wrong. if he tries to retreat into stealth, you just kill him. He is locked in an animation with all defenses down. Use a channeled skill. Hit him with CC. Or just burst him. He will die.

Oh great, now you use reveal - the thief is far enough away, just waits it out and strikes again.

If you use revealed while he is close (not that I would advocate it because revealed is entirely unneccessary) ,then he wasted initiative and is a sitting duck, even if you failed to punish him in time.

STEALTH IS BROKEN AND MUST BE REMOVED.

It is the only option.

Nah. Out of combat stealth should be dealt with, but in-combat stealth needs a buff, if anything.

[Teratus.2859]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targetsOh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

[Teratus.2859]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

Not knowing where someone is gives a form of advantage, for sure.Then again, so do plenty of other mechanics that the thief has no access to. What's the big deal between seeing someone using a Block or Invuln (and them using it to kite/wait for CD's) and being unable to do anything about it, compared to not seeing someone in stealth (and quite often seeing someone entering stealth, at least after initial engage...) where yes, they can kite and wait for CD's, but you can actually still damage them, reveal them and impair/counter them in other such ways..?

you are ignoring the problem. Despite it being spelled out by other. You can not do damage or reveal IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE THIEF IS NEARBY.

Thief jumps you out of stealth, spikes you, retreats into stealth AND THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

Oh great, now you use reveal - the thief is far enough away, just waits it out and strikes again.

STEALTH IS BROKEN AND MUST BE REMOVED.

It is the only option.

Not to mention for some classes their only Reveal skills need to be either triggered by an enemy such as a Trap or the skills REQUIRES!!! you to have the thief actively targetted to reveal them such as Sic Em.. meaning that when the thief is stealthed these skills are practicalyl useless and unable to reveal the thief at all.

Hence the problem with the defenders arguments that stealth doesn't protect you from damange..No it doesn't so long as you swing or blast blindly at the area the thief is in while stealthed, but you cannot see the thief so the only indication you have your hitting him is your auto chain.Since most thieves will put distance between themselves and the target before stealthing this makes melee weapons ineffective for this unless you can close the gap before the stealth and get lucky.

If your playing ranged which requires an active target for projectile lock on to actually hit and do damage you are s*** outta luck when that thief stealths.There is no chance in hell your projectiles are going to hit that thief unless you get extremely lucky.The only decent skills for hitting stealth thieves are AoEs and they are limited on some classes, almost non existent on others and easily avoidable for the thief as they can see them coming or dodge out of them if one does land.

So not it doesn't protect you from damange.. that is true, but it does make you impossible to target and that alone can give you 100% damage immunity.Not to mention thieves can still evade while stealthed and teleport as well so yeah, 4-7 seconds of damage immunity is nothing comapred to how much damage a thief can avoid using stealth, evades and shadowsteps, it's not even remotely close.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targets

There are plenty of bad thieves. If they try to stealth mid-combat, punish them, its rather trivial. They also dont avoid "all damage" while stealthed, they avoid very little. Cleave them down, hit them with AoEs, use channeled skills.

Oh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

Thats Shadow Meld. Used by Deadeye. Deadeye is bad, so its trivially easy to deal with.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.

You mustve been imagining things. Indeed only Deadeye can do that.

When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

Likewise. That is not possible either (anymore. It was originally, but they changed that).

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

Yeah, no. If they use shortbow 5 to run away, they wont have the initiative to stealth up. They also have no reason to stealth up. Outside of flat ground, no class can catch up with a Thief using shortbow 5. And while on flat ground Warrior could, Warrior would also just kill the thief if he tries to stealth up on flat ground after using one shadowstep, so its equally pointless.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

Not knowing where someone is gives a form of advantage, for sure.Then again, so do plenty of other mechanics that the thief has no access to. What's the big deal between seeing someone using a Block or Invuln (and them using it to kite/wait for CD's) and being unable to do anything about it, compared to not seeing someone in stealth (and quite often seeing someone entering stealth, at least after initial engage...) where yes, they can kite and wait for CD's, but you can actually still damage them, reveal them and impair/counter them in other such ways..?

you are ignoring the problem. Despite it being spelled out by other. You can not do damage or reveal IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THE THIEF IS NEARBY.

Thief jumps you out of stealth, spikes you, retreats into stealth AND THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

Oh great, now you use reveal - the thief is far enough away, just waits it out and strikes again.

STEALTH IS BROKEN AND MUST BE REMOVED.

It is the only option.

Not to mention for some classes their only Reveal skills need to be either triggered by an enemy such as a Trap or the skills REQUIRES!!! you to have the thief actively targetted to reveal them such as Sic Em.. meaning that when the thief is stealthed these skills are practicalyl useless and unable to reveal the thief at all.

Reveal skills arent neccessary anyway. But thief needs time to stealth up, if you really have difficulty punishing it normally, just use the reveal skills when theyre in the process of stealthing up and watch them waste resources.

Hence the problem with the defenders arguments that stealth doesn't protect you from damange..No it doesn't so long as you swing or blast blindly at the area the thief is in while stealthed, but you cannot see the thief so the only indication you have your hitting him is your auto chain.Since most thieves will put distance between themselves and the target before stealthing this makes melee weapons ineffective for this unless you can close the gap before the stealth and get lucky.

It just doesnt, period. You know where the thief is while he is stealthing up, and immediately afterwards. You can track them. You can use a channeled skill and watch them die as stealth fails to do anything. You can hit them with CC or burst while theyre trying to stealth up. Hell, targetted skills will keep hitting the thief for a bit, so even that option exists. And if they put distance between you, they cant really stealth up. Shortbow has no stealth skills without a smoke field, and they cant have BP active after shortbow 5ing away. Not that they have any reason to stealth up after switching to shortbow.

If your playing ranged which requires an active target for projectile lock on to actually hit and do damage you are s*** outta luck when that thief stealths.There is no chance in hell your projectiles are going to hit that thief unless you get extremely lucky.The only decent skills for hitting stealth thieves are AoEs and they are limited on some classes, almost non existent on others and easily avoidable for the thief as they can see them coming or dodge out of them if one does land.

Except for channeled skills, that keep hitting afterwards. Regularl targetted skills also keep hitting for a bit. And of course AoEs. Off the top of my head, I cant think of any widely used ranged weapon that doesnt have some number of those types of skills, except for Deadeye. But Deadeye sucks anyway.

So not it doesn't protect you from damange.. that is true, but it does make you impossible to target and that alone can give you 100% damage immunity.Not to mention thieves can still evade while stealthed and teleport as well so yeah, 4-7 seconds of damage immunity is nothing comapred to how much damage a thief can avoid using stealth, evades and shadowsteps, it's not even remotely close.

No, it cannot. Being unable to be targetted only stops targetting skills. Everything else can and usually will hit you. And sure, the thief can still evade and teleport while stealthed, but then its not the stealth preventing the damage, is it? Its the evades and teleports. Which is why the best way of doing it is to just not stealth in the first place. 4-7 seconds damage immunty is so much better than thieves stealth its not even remotely comparable. There is a reason the former is widely used and incredibly valuable on every class that has access to it, while the latter is something thief doesnt use other than out of combat.

[Teratus.2859]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targets

There are plenty of bad thieves. If they try to stealth mid-combat, punish them, its rather trivial. They also dont avoid "all damage" while stealthed, they avoid very little. Cleave them down, hit them with AoEs, use channeled skills.

Good luck cleaving someone who goes from melee combat to about 2000 range away in less than a second.. stealths and then becomes impossible to target with any ranged skills.. and then comes back a few seconds later with full health again.

Oh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.

You mustve been imagining things. Indeed only Deadeye can do that.

No I wasn't, I pay close attention to the target enemy's HP and buffs when I cast reveal on them, It was active for a few seconds and then it vanished. with no flashing indicating it was about to expire.. and that was on Daredevils who then stealthed and broke my target lock.That's not imagining anything, that's cheating.. or using some kind of exploit that I am not aware of and is not intended to be possible.

When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

Likewise. That is not possible either (anymore. It was originally, but they changed that).

Not without cheating it's not no, yet people still claim it happens although personally I have not noticed this one myself.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

Yeah, no. If they use shortbow 5 to run away, they wont have the initiative to stealth up. They also have no reason to stealth up. Outside of flat ground, no class can catch up with a Thief using shortbow 5. And while on flat ground Warrior could, Warrior would also just kill the thief if he tries to stealth up on flat ground after using one shadowstep, so its equally pointless.

Can yeah, no at that if you wish but it doesn't change what I see in game every day lately.Maybe im just dealing with more cheaters than you.. after catching a few in the act today i'm more than convinced it's more common than previously expected.After all Stealth provides the perfect camo for doing things like restoring all your HP or initiative without an enemy player being aware that you used a 3rd party program to do it.. and they do exist, everyone has seen them by now as plenty of videos have been made showcasing them and what they can do.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targets

There are plenty of bad thieves. If they try to stealth mid-combat, punish them, its rather trivial. They also dont avoid "all damage" while stealthed, they avoid very little. Cleave them down, hit them with AoEs, use channeled skills.

Good luck cleaving someone who goes from melee combat to about 2000 range away in less than a second.. stealths and then becomes impossible to target with any ranged skills.. and then comes back a few seconds later with full health again.

If theyre already 2000 range away, what exactly do they gain by stealthing, other than wasting initiative? For that matter, if they were able to teleport that far and still were able to stealth, that means they burned shadowstep. One of their only condi clears and stunbreaks. And that means they cant repeat it for 50 seconds. That doesnt sound very effective to me.

Oh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.

You mustve been imagining things. Indeed only Deadeye can do that.

No I wasn't, I pay close attention to the target enemy's HP and buffs when I cast reveal on them, It was active for a few seconds and then it vanished. with no flashing indicating it was about to expire.. and that was on Daredevils who then stealthed and broke my target lock.That's not imagining anything, that's cheating.. or using some kind of exploit that I am not aware of and is not intended to be possible.

If such an exploit existed, you would find it mentioned somewhere online. No hack would allow you to do that. Im afraid you are just imagining things.

When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

Likewise. That is not possible either (anymore. It was originally, but they changed that).

Not without cheating it's not no, yet people still claim it happens although personally I have not noticed this one myself.

Its just not possible period. If there was an exploit, maybe, but people wouldve posted that exploit within a day of its discovery.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

Yeah, no. If they use shortbow 5 to run away, they wont have the initiative to stealth up. They also have no reason to stealth up. Outside of flat ground, no class can catch up with a Thief using shortbow 5. And while on flat ground Warrior could, Warrior would also just kill the thief if he tries to stealth up on flat ground after using one shadowstep, so its equally pointless.

Can yeah, no at that if you wish but it doesn't change what I see in game every day lately.Maybe im just dealing with more cheaters than you.. after catching a few in the act today i'm more than convinced it's more common than previously expected.After all Stealth provides the perfect camo for doing things like restoring all your HP or initiative without an enemy player being aware that you used a 3rd party program to do it.. and they do exist, everyone has seen them by now as plenty of videos have been made showcasing them and what they can do.

And yet I cant find a single video like that. Got a link?

[Fueki.4753]

@UNOwen.7132 said:And yet I cant find a single video like that. Got a link?Good luck capturing a stealthed enemy on video.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:And yet I cant find a single video like that. Got a link?Good luck capturing a stealthed enemy on video.

Capturing a Daredevil who was revealed and then isnt should be trivial.

[Teratus.2859]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targets

There are plenty of bad thieves. If they try to stealth mid-combat, punish them, its rather trivial. They also dont avoid "all damage" while stealthed, they avoid very little. Cleave them down, hit them with AoEs, use channeled skills.

Good luck cleaving someone who goes from melee combat to about 2000 range away in less than a second.. stealths and then becomes impossible to target with any ranged skills.. and then comes back a few seconds later with full health again.

If theyre already 2000 range away, what exactly do they gain by stealthing, other than wasting initiative? For that matter, if they were able to teleport that far and still were able to stealth, that means they burned shadowstep. One of their only condi clears and stunbreaks. And that means they cant repeat it for 50 seconds. That doesnt sound very effective to me.

It was hyperbole, I don't know the exact range but in general to deter persuit.Some people will still chase a thief even after it's giant teleports, but not if it stealths.If a thief wants to get away they can keep using shadowstep or they can stealth, guess it's upto them on preference, but many from my experience opt for stealth.50 seconds isn't that long of a CD out of combat anyway, specially if you have the option to avoid it which is pretty easy in WvW with the Warclaw.

Oh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.

You mustve been imagining things. Indeed only Deadeye can do that.

No I wasn't, I pay close attention to the target enemy's HP and buffs when I cast reveal on them, It was active for a few seconds and then it vanished. with no flashing indicating it was about to expire.. and that was on Daredevils who then stealthed and broke my target lock.That's not imagining anything, that's cheating.. or using some kind of exploit that I am not aware of and is not intended to be possible.

If such an exploit existed, you would find it mentioned somewhere online. No hack would allow you to do that. Im afraid you are just imagining things.

There are plenty of hacks that allows you to do all sorts of stuff like no clip, fly, infinite teleport, HP restore, cleanse all debuffs, climb walls etcThese tools are always getting upgraded over time, hell even the botting stuff is getting better are replicating human behaviour to avoid bans.

I can't tell you how it happened because I don't know.. all I know is that I cast a skill with a 6 second reveal debuff and the players I cast it on despite not having the ability to remove it did so anyway after less than half of the reveals duration.

When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

Likewise. That is not possible either (anymore. It was originally, but they changed that).

Not without cheating it's not no, yet people still claim it happens although personally I have not noticed this one myself.

Its just not possible period. If there was an exploit, maybe, but people wouldve posted that exploit within a day of its discovery.

Well here's a week old video of a thief teleporting while mounted.

Just because it's not possible to do legit doesn't mean players can't get around that stuff, that's exactly what cheat software is for and why people pay for it.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

Yeah, no. If they use shortbow 5 to run away, they wont have the initiative to stealth up. They also have no reason to stealth up. Outside of flat ground, no class can catch up with a Thief using shortbow 5. And while on flat ground Warrior could, Warrior would also just kill the thief if he tries to stealth up on flat ground after using one shadowstep, so its equally pointless.

Can yeah, no at that if you wish but it doesn't change what I see in game every day lately.Maybe im just dealing with more cheaters than you.. after catching a few in the act today i'm more than convinced it's more common than previously expected.After all Stealth provides the perfect camo for doing things like restoring all your HP or initiative without an enemy player being aware that you used a 3rd party program to do it.. and they do exist, everyone has seen them by now as plenty of videos have been made showcasing them and what they can do.

And yet I cant find a single video like that. Got a link?

Some guy made one to expose these programs years ago by showing off in detail how one specific piece of software worked, all the usual stuff like flying, no fall damage, cliping etc along with constant Hp regen making him invicible.I can't for the life of me find it now though.. I guess he removed it after the ban wave a while back which I believe he was also caught in for using it.Shame really it was the best video on the subject.

This one from 2 years ago is still up though, doesn't show everything I mentioned but some of them are there like speed, clipping, flying and other stuff.

These programs do exist and have done for years.. Anet may make them redundant for a while but they always get updated and brought back.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

The only problem stealth has is out of combat stealth. In combat stealth is already very weak and has no impact on balance. If anything its out of combat stealth that should be removed.

Then why is it out of all the thieves I fight every single one of them teleports around and constantly keeps stealthing in combat so they can heal and do all sorts of other things while avoiding all damage and skills that require targets

There are plenty of bad thieves. If they try to stealth mid-combat, punish them, its rather trivial. They also dont avoid "all damage" while stealthed, they avoid very little. Cleave them down, hit them with AoEs, use channeled skills.

Good luck cleaving someone who goes from melee combat to about 2000 range away in less than a second.. stealths and then becomes impossible to target with any ranged skills.. and then comes back a few seconds later with full health again.

If theyre already 2000 range away, what exactly do they gain by stealthing, other than wasting initiative? For that matter, if they were able to teleport that far and still were able to stealth, that means they burned shadowstep. One of their only condi clears and stunbreaks. And that means they cant repeat it for 50 seconds. That doesnt sound very effective to me.

It was hyperbole, I don't know the exact range but in general to deter persuit.Some people will still chase a thief even after it's giant teleports, but not if it stealths.If a thief wants to get away they can keep using shadowstep or they can stealth, guess it's upto them on preference, but many from my experience opt for stealth.50 seconds isn't that long of a CD out of combat anyway, specially if you have the option to avoid it which is pretty easy in WvW with the Warclaw.

Hyperbole or no, the point still stands. If theyve already cleared the distance enough to be safe, there is no reason to stealth up. If they havent, then stealthing up is extremely unsafe. If you chase a thief after teleports but dont get there in time to punish the attempt to stealth, then you were never gonna catch them anyway. Besides, its better to use the initiative for another teleport. And no, the thief only has 1 option, shadowstepping using shortbow 5. If he wants to get away, trying to stealth up is the worst thing he can do, worse than just walking away. Because its hilariously risky. 50 seconds is a long time. Were also talking PvP, not WvW here.

Oh and while im at it I also noticed today that several thieves I fought REMOVED! my 6 sec reveal debuff after about 1-2 seconds which is the only counter I have against this bs.

I looked that up too once I caught it to be sure and ONLY! Deadeyes have the ability to remove reveal, yet I caught multiple Daredevils removing my reveal so they could keep stealthing.

You mustve been imagining things. Indeed only Deadeye can do that.

No I wasn't, I pay close attention to the target enemy's HP and buffs when I cast reveal on them, It was active for a few seconds and then it vanished. with no flashing indicating it was about to expire.. and that was on Daredevils who then stealthed and broke my target lock.That's not imagining anything, that's cheating.. or using some kind of exploit that I am not aware of and is not intended to be possible.

If such an exploit existed, you would find it mentioned somewhere online. No hack would allow you to do that. Im afraid you are just imagining things.

There are plenty of hacks that allows you to do all sorts of stuff like no clip, fly, infinite teleport, HP restore, cleanse all debuffs, climb walls etcThese tools are always getting upgraded over time, hell even the botting stuff is getting better are replicating human behaviour to avoid bans.

There are tools that mess with position and allow all kinds of shenanigans. But far as Im aware, thats it. Nothing like restoring hp or cleansing debuffs.

I can't tell you how it happened because I don't know.. all I know is that I cast a skill with a 6 second reveal debuff and the players I cast it on despite not having the ability to remove it did so anyway after less than half of the reveals duration.

Again, that seems unlikely, especially since noone else ever mentioned such a thing happening to them.

When I called it out in map too other people noted that thieves have been stealthing while mounted as well which they shouldnt be able to do either so yeah either stealth is as broken as so many people say it is or far too many thieves these days are running cheat software.

Likewise. That is not possible either (anymore. It was originally, but they changed that).

Not without cheating it's not no, yet people still claim it happens although personally I have not noticed this one myself.

Its just not possible period. If there was an exploit, maybe, but people wouldve posted that exploit within a day of its discovery.

Well here's a week old video of a thief teleporting while mounted.

Just because it's not possible to do legit doesn't mean players can't get around that stuff, that's exactly what cheat software is for and why people pay for it.

As I said, positions can be messed with through hacks.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Thieves do not use stealth to run away. They use shortbow 5 to run away.

They use a shadowstep to get the distance and then they stealth so you cannot persue them or see where they jump to next giving them a guaranteed chance to break combat and mount before you can chase them down... sometimes they break while stealthed too and re-appear fully healed, witnessed this many times when one of their little ambush's doesnt go their way.

Yeah, no. If they use shortbow 5 to run away, they wont have the initiative to stealth up. They also have no reason to stealth up. Outside of flat ground, no class can catch up with a Thief using shortbow 5. And while on flat ground Warrior could, Warrior would also just kill the thief if he tries to stealth up on flat ground after using one shadowstep, so its equally pointless.

Can yeah, no at that if you wish but it doesn't change what I see in game every day lately.Maybe im just dealing with more cheaters than you.. after catching a few in the act today i'm more than convinced it's more common than previously expected.After all Stealth provides the perfect camo for doing things like restoring all your HP or initiative without an enemy player being aware that you used a 3rd party program to do it.. and they do exist, everyone has seen them by now as plenty of videos have been made showcasing them and what they can do.

And yet I cant find a single video like that. Got a link?

Some guy made one to expose these programs years ago by showing off in detail how one specific piece of software worked, all the usual stuff like flying, no fall damage, cliping etc along with constant Hp regen making him invicible.I can't for the life of me find it now though.. I guess he removed it after the ban wave a while back which I believe he was also caught in for using it.Shame really it was the best video on the subject.

This one from 2 years ago is still up though, doesn't show everything I mentioned but some of them are there like speed, clipping, flying and other stuff.

These programs do exist and have done for years.. Anet may make them redundant for a while but they always get updated and brought back.

What he shows are the hacks that exist, related to positioning. That part is sadly hackable. Debuffs are not.