When we nerf thief...no one considers this

[Crab Fear.1624]

Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

[Burnfall.9573]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

+1

Bad Design + Toxicity, Goes Hand To HandBad Design Encourages Toxicity

Good Design+ Healthy, Goes Hand To HandGood Design Discourages Toxicity

[Fueki.4753]

The problem with Stealth and spike damage is that you can't see it coming, so you have virtually no counterplay to it, unless you take a potshot at nothing using the one reveal skill you might have.Also, those other things you mentioned are all complained about in various different threads as well.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Fueki.4753 said:The problem with Stealth and spike damage is that you can't see it coming, so you have virtually no counterplay to it, unless you take a potshot at nothing using the one reveal skill you might have.Also, those other things you mentioned are all complained about in various different threads as well.

Ill tell you honestly, whatever they call thief and true descendant of assassin(not rev) is what I will play. Because that is my main from LONG ago.

I didnt have stealth then, I dont need it now.

[Fueki.4753]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The problem with Stealth and spike damage is that you can't see it coming, so you have virtually no counterplay to it, unless you take a potshot at

nothing

using the one reveal skill you

might

have.Also, those other things you mentioned are

all

complained about in various different threads as well.

Ill tell you honestly, whatever they call thief and true descendant of assassin(not rev) is what I will play. Because that is my main from LONG ago.

I didnt have stealth then, I dont need it now.

I'd rather not have it either.

I don't think Thief is a descendant of GW1's Assassin though.Assassins were all about stringing together weapon skills based on stances, similar to Monks in FF14.Thief was intended to be about repeating the same skill over and over, like those Death Blossom and Unload spam builds.In PvP, Thief became a oneshot-or-run-away play style.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The problem with Stealth and spike damage is that you can't see it coming, so you have virtually no counterplay to it, unless you take a potshot at

nothing

using the one reveal skill you

might

have.Also, those other things you mentioned are

all

complained about in various different threads as well.

Ill tell you honestly, whatever they call thief and true descendant of assassin(not rev) is what I will play. Because that is my main from LONG ago.

I didnt have stealth then, I dont need it now.

I'd rather not have it either.

I don't think Thief is a descendant of GW1's Assassin though.Assassins were all about stringing together weapon skills based on stances, similar to Monks in FF14.Thief was intended to be about repeating the same skill over and over, like those Death Blossom and Unload spam builds.In PvP, Thief became a oneshot-or-run-away play style.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

"While being a confirmed reworking of the original assassin with no lore parallels between the two, the thief was the second profession unveiled not to be in the original Guild Wars."

[Fueki.4753]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:"While being a confirmed reworking of the original assassinI do not argue that they somewhat fit in the same archetype, albeit both being at the extreme opposite ends of the Rogue archetype.It feels and plays nothing like Assassin however though. This is like WoW's rework from WoD Survival Hunter into the Legion Survival Hunter, including the hot mess that pleased less than it disappointed.Arenanet practically designed a new profession from scratch and just took some skill names and animations from Assassin.

with no lore parallels between the twoAnd there goes the descendant out of the window.If it was a descendant, it'd need an ancestral connection to the Assassin, which requires a lore connection.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Apart from the archetype and shadowstep skills there's nothing in common between assassin and thief.In fact mechanical wise they're on extreme opposites.

[Vornollo.5182]

Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).Not knowing where someone is gives a form of advantage, for sure.Then again, so do plenty of other mechanics that the thief has no access to. What's the big deal between seeing someone using a Block or Invuln (and them using it to kite/wait for CD's) and being unable to do anything about it, compared to not seeing someone in stealth (and quite often seeing someone entering stealth, at least after initial engage...) where yes, they can kite and wait for CD's, but you can actually still damage them, reveal them and impair/counter them in other such ways..?

Personally I feel like Thief is fine, a tad underwhelming? Perhaps, but that's mostly related to other professions being overpowered instead.It's still got the potential to be very impactful if played well and has possibly the highest skill ceiling in the game, but it definitely has the tools for a total newbie to pick it up and be an absolute troll with. Low skill, low impact builds, but annoying and trollish. Easy to counter/outplay too...But yeah, let's just allow pepega trolls to dictate nerf cries instead...

[Buran.3796]

@Vornollo.5182 said:Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).

Main problem with stealth is not the potential for unexpected burst, but the amount of damage it prevents. Aside for AoEs (and thieves have no problems avoiding most of them due their extreme mobility) every damage falls to 0 when a foe is in stealth, because most of skills that deal damage and aren't AoE need a target or at least to cleave a very delimited area to produce pressure. Stealth makes most of those skills temporaly useless and therfore is the largest damage preventing ability in the game.

[Vornollo.5182]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).

Main problem with stealth is not the potential for unexpected burst, but the amount of damage it prevents. Aside for AoEs (and thieves have no problems avoiding most of them due their extreme mobility) every damage falls to 0 when a foe is in stealth, because most of skills that deal damage and aren't AoE need a target or at least to cleave a very delimited area to produce pressure. Stealth makes most of those skills temporaly useless and therfore is the largest damage preventing ability in the game.

There's a very limited amount of skills that require you to have a target. Most skills can be used anywhere, anytime. Your statement, while not completely untrue, is rather irrelevant to the majority of skills in this game.Sure, it's more difficult to land, but at least they can land on stealth foes.

[Fueki.4753]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).

Main problem with stealth is not the potential for unexpected burst, but the amount of damage it prevents.

For some people is the existence of Stealth (and thus its nature of being an anti-pvp mechanic) in itself the reason for hatred..But that's more a matter of an individual's principles than one of gameplay.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).

Main problem with stealth is not the potential for unexpected burst, but the amount of damage it prevents. Aside for AoEs (and thieves have no problems avoiding most of them due their extreme mobility) every damage falls to 0 when a foe is in stealth, because most of skills that deal damage and aren't AoE need a target or at least to cleave a very delimited area to produce pressure. Stealth makes most of those skills temporaly useless and therfore is the largest damage preventing ability in the game.

Its the exact opposite. The main and only problem with stealth is the potential for unexpected burst. The amount of damage it prevents isnt an issue, mostly because that amount is a lot less than block. Or invuln. Or evade. Its not the largest damage preventing ability, its the lowest damage preventing ability (if it even counts for that). The thing is, stealth prevents very little. Since its slow and telegraphed, you will be hit for free damage when you try to enter stealth, and even afterwards, you will be hit by AoEs, you will be hit by cleave and you will be hit by channeled skills started before you enter stealth. Even targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit.

[Buran.3796]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Its the exact opposite. The main and only problem with stealth is the potential for unexpected burst. The amount of damage it prevents isnt an issue, mostly because that amount is a lot less than block. Or invuln. Or evade. Its not the largest damage preventing ability, its the lowest damage preventing ability (if it even counts for that). The thing is, stealth prevents very little. Since its slow and telegraphed, you will be hit for free damage when you try to enter stealth, and even afterwards, you will be hit by AoEs, you will be hit by cleave and you will be hit by channeled skills started before you enter stealth. Even targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit.

When Heart of Thorns was released I moved from maining a Guardian to Revenant, and most of the time I keep playing power Glint+Shiro; the main reason for that change was how easy were for classes with stealth access (thieves, mesmers, rangers and engineers to some extent) to poke at range or chain daze/stuns and burst, then retreat, poke again and just to fade away, forcing me to use my gap closers (JI, sword #2... ) to do nothing, in both PvP and WvW roaming. The problem wasn't sudden burst spikes, because you can gear and trait a class to survive any spike, the problem is that even if they fail in one-shooting you, THEIR RISK IS 0, because then they just stealth, move away, and repeat the process again.

Stealth in GW2 is a very lame game mechanic, because opens a sea of posibilities in terms of attacks: burst damage, chain stuns, boon strips, debuff aplication, etc. at very LOW RISK. Is a HIGH REWARD/LOW RISK ability which doesn't punish mistakes. You do your trick, you fail, and still you flee away with nothing but a slap in the wrist. Is a badly balanced ability which sohouldn't ever exist in the game at all, but once is in, ANet should have changed it so once you're in combat, you no longer can cast stealth again until you're out. I find beating stealth players satisfying but uninteresting. Satsifying because feels like outsmarting a cheater, but uninteresting because after all He wasn't trying to having a fight against you (much less a duel), as a Warrior, Necro or Elementalist do; He was just trying to exploiting a bug.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Its the

exact

opposite. The main and

only

problem with stealth is the potential for unexpected burst. The amount of damage it prevents isnt an issue, mostly because that amount is a lot less than block. Or invuln. Or evade. Its not the largest damage preventing ability, its the lowest damage preventing ability (if it even counts for that). The thing is, stealth prevents very little. Since its slow and telegraphed, you will be hit for free damage when you try to enter stealth, and even afterwards, you will be hit by AoEs, you will be hit by cleave and you will be hit by channeled skills started before you enter stealth. Even targetted attacks keep hitting for a bit.

When Heart of Thorns was released I moved from maining a Guardian to Revenant, and most of the time I keep playing power Glint+Shiro; the main reason for that change was how easy were for classes with stealth access (thieves, mesmers, rangers and engineers to some extent) to poke at range or chain daze/stuns and burst, then retreat, poke again and just to fade away, forcing me to use my gap closers (JI, sword #2... ) to do nothing, in both PvP and WvW roaming. The problem wasn't sudden burst spikes, because you can gear and trait a class to survive any spike, the problem is that even if they fail in one-shooting you, THEIR RISK IS 0, because then they just stealth, move away, and repeat the process again.

Thats wrong Im afraid. If they try to stealth up mid-combat, their risk is very high. Because they basically just said "Im locked in an animation for a second and depleted my initiative, please just hit me with burst or CC and kill me while I have nothing I can do at all". There is a reason thieves dont, and didnt even in HoT, use stealth mid-combat. Its bad. Its really bad.

Stealth in GW2 is a very lame game mechanic, because opens a sea of posibilities in terms of attacks: burst damage, chain stuns, boon strips, debuff aplication, etc. at very LOW RISK. Is a HIGH REWARD/LOW RISK ability which doesn't punish mistakes. You do your trick, you fail, and still you flee away with nothing but a slap in the wrist. Is a badly balanced ability which sohouldn't ever exist in the game at all, but once is in, ANet should have changed it so once you're in combat, you no longer can cast stealth again until you're out. I find beating stealth players satisfying but uninteresting. Satsifying because feels like outsmarting a cheater, but uninteresting because after all He wasn't trying to having a fight against you (much less a duel), as a Warrior, Necro or Elementalist do; He was just trying to exploiting a bug.

If were talking the out of combat version, aka unexpected burst, then yes. its low risk, high reward. If were talking the in-combat version, its the polar opposite. Its high risk, low reward. In-combat stealth is incredibly dangerous. Its extremely easily punished, and against any half-decent enemy results in the thieves death. In fact, if the thief wants to run away or disengage, stealth is the worst thing he can do. Worse than just literally walking away. Making stealth not work in-combat is one of the worst ideas that people keep repeating here, because, quite frankly, it shows that they dont understand the problem with stealth, and the things stealth is awful at. In-combat stealth is fine, it has a lot of counterplay. Currently too much, thats why its so weak thieves dont use it at all. Its also funny that people hate stealth with such a passion, but thing Warriors ability to become basically invulnerable for 7+ seconds, or Weavers evade spam is totally fine.

[DinesenDK.5067]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Thief can potentially bring damage, and they have top mobility.

But what other TOP does a thief have?

Are they a top:

• bunker
• healer
• support
• aoe
• burns
• team fighter
• damage
• ect

so when some one says thief can't duel because of x or y...why is the same treatment not given to everyone else when they are "top" in any one of these catagories?

Check it out, stealth is not the only "toxic" mechanic in the game.

I doubt anyone wants to nerf Thief into the ground. I love that we actually have a theif class that is good in spvp. However, Theif is to me a +1 class, and not a I can duel-steamroll all other classes. Thieves should have great mobility, and a nice burst DPS. But when you give Theif to much mobility to the point where they can't be caught, or DPSed in the short moment, where you do have them within range, then it quickly becomes a balance issue. Thieves are the decappers, node-stealers, and the sudden burst, when opponents ins low on health. Again. They are not the I can duel them all class, and people forget, or simply don't know, that each classes has a role. We're not all dualists, or bunkers, healers, tops and so on, or all of them in one.

In other words. I don't understand why, Thief should excel at other things, then mobility?

Stealth is a cool mechanic, and I would like it to stay in the game as well, even though I struggle to play against it. I just don't understand why, in this case thief, should be able to stealth as often as it is able to.

:)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@DinesenDK.5067 said:I doubt anyone wants to nerf Thief into the ground.

Reconsider that.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:"While being a confirmed reworking of the original assassinI do not argue that they somewhat fit in the same archetype, albeit both being at the extreme opposite ends of the Rogue archetype.It feels and plays nothing like Assassin however though. This is like WoW's rework from WoD Survival Hunter into the Legion Survival Hunter, including the hot mess that pleased less than it disappointed.Arenanet practically designed a new profession from scratch and just took some skill names and animations from Assassin.

with no lore parallels between the twoAnd there goes the descendant out of the window.If it was a descendant, it'd need an ancestral connection to the Assassin, which requires a lore connection.

+10

exactly this.

• I would also like to remind other that, Stealth existed long before Guild Wars 1
• Guild Wars 1 was released 1 Year after World of Warcraft
• Original Anet had all the reasons to implement Stealth. They were very aware of Stealth Toxic Collateral Damage and as a result, they refuse to let it have its presence in Guild Wars 1

2013-04-30 Rhap,

'The gw1Assassin did it right. Shadow stepping gave them huge mobility, they had great control and really powerful offensive/defensive abilities that took fitness and skill to master. Just look at those skills. They still had the power to not be targeted and escape or close faster than any other class and all without the invisibility gimmick.'

[Dantheman.3589]

Who cares tbh

[ParanoidKami.2867]

Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

[UNOwen.7132]

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

Any thief using shortbow 5 is a roamer spec. And due to the initiative system, there is no point in using 2 weaponsets anyway, so every thief plays shortbow. So, no, thief cant duel. It also doesnt have high burst, or even medium burst.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

Any thief using shortbow 5 is a roamer spec. And due to the initiative system, there is no point in using 2 weaponsets anyway, so every thief plays shortbow. So, no, thief cant duel. It also doesnt have high burst, or even medium burst.

Initiative on weapon swap, other traits and so on. Also, different weapons give different options. If you don't know how to hit or do damage that's your own problem.

[UNOwen.7132]

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

Any thief using shortbow 5 is a roamer spec. And due to the initiative system, there is no point in using 2 weaponsets anyway, so every thief plays shortbow. So, no, thief cant duel. It also doesnt have high burst, or even medium burst.

Initiative on weapon swap, other traits and so on. Also, different weapons give different options. If you don't know how to hit or do damage that's your own problem.

Quick Pockets wasnt even good before, it sure as hell isnt now. It only saw play in a dumb staff/staff bunker build. Different options are meaningless if youre forced to go for and stick with one of them anyway. Thief cant duel people. Its not supposed to, after all. Thief has 1 spec, which is shortbow 5 + whatever collection of other stuff you want to play, and everything else isnt even remotely viable.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"Vornollo.5182" said:Always funny how people still don't realize that most of the direct damage a Thief does isn't even stealth-based in current post-HoT GW2...Yet for some reason it's the main reason for bashing the thief...The biggest impact that stealth has is when it comes to rotations and movement/positioning. Whether it's on the map in sPvP or around a small area in small scale fights (think WvW).

Main problem with stealth is not the potential for unexpected burst,

but the amount of damage it prevents.

Aside for AoEs (

and thieves have no problems avoiding most of them due their extreme mobility

) every damage falls to 0 when a foe is in stealth, because most of skills that deal damage and aren't AoE need a target or at least to cleave a very delimited area to produce pressure. Stealth makes most of those skills temporaly useless and therfore is the largest damage preventing ability in the game.

1) You really want to discuss damage negation? I suppose in your little bubble stealth is the only "way to avoid damage". But sure, whatever goes for anti-thief bias.

2) Oh, you mean, like, disengaging? Hmm, thief sure is the only class capable of doing that.

3) Blocking makes the majority of in-game skills useless, too. Should we be looking to nerf warrior and guardian based on that?

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@ParanoidKami.2867 said:Thief CAN duel. Just not when you're using a roamer spec. Thief has high mobility and burst on roamer spec. Don't expect it to do everything at once because that would be overpowered.

Any thief using shortbow 5 is a roamer spec. And due to the initiative system, there is no point in using 2 weaponsets anyway, so every thief plays shortbow. So, no, thief cant duel. It also doesnt have high burst, or even medium burst.

Skilled thieves can out-duel people who don't meet them in those terms. However, as always, one has to consider if it's worth it time investment -wise. Common answer is: no. Most other classes can duel with a lot less effort involved, and wrap it up faster (aforementioned skill diff inc.), too.