[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Quadox.7834 said:

i dont understand your first point, the doc doesnt ask for buffs. it just wants to REPLACE a bad and senseless nerf (one dodge) with other nerfs make more sense and actually solve the problems and not just cover them. or nerfs that are still just covers but at least with less harmful secondary effects.

the one dodge nerf (even when called only a number change) produces a lot of mechanical issues cannot be solved by simple number changes or by core mesmer changes and since chrono (before it got ip back) and mirage were nerfed in such insane wrong ways made me go for elite balance doc first bc i felt they are more in need of emergency changes. during the progress with the doc chrono got ip back already so it turned out to be about mirage mostly. anyway it doesnt mean core balance is less important or i want to ignore it. and the moment i feel like it makes sense to make a second document for core changes i will do it.

some of the changes in the doc are quite complicated and not guaranteed to work so have a risk to end up wasted effort.

some things inread in the doc sound broken as well, such as jaunt with 20 sec cd + leaving behind mirror.

the doc is just a summary and yes i also think some of the suggested changes (like the total reworks of mirage in section F) are too much work and too complicated to have any chance to be taken by the balance team. but they might offer some idea for mirage or even for the next elite spec and i didnt want to limit ideas from ppl participating too much. cmc/ balance team can look by themself what they find is too complicated and what maybe needs adjustments to be not op overall in the end.

i cannot rly remember the jaunt change you mentioned but it was most likely just one part of a whole mirage rework concept in section F. no one would give current mirage a jaunt with extra mirror generation. so you have to read this suggestion in the context of the nerfs were included in the concept it was part of. and even then it is still anets part to finetune the concepts so they are not op in the end.

@Yoci.2481 said:You could allow Mesmer to have 4 trait lines instead of 3 and it still wouldn't be OP. That's where we are right now.

nah i disagree here too. its rly not that bad. the overall power lvl is in a good state and the state from other classes should just be brought down to that. remarkable buffs to the power lvl are not needed then i think. but the dumbed down spiral and the contradiction of spec mechanics created by the one dodge nerf which doesnt even solve the underlying problems needs to be replaced with other nerfs make more sense (that is ofc in stupid hope that all other classes get brought down to around that lvl in the near future muhaha yeah well lets see...). and i talk about power mirage, condi mes (mirage and chrono) is even less in need of any buff. esp for mirage not suprising bc the one dodge nerf didnt rly solve any problems.

[Yoci.2481]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Yoci.2481 said:You could allow Mesmer to have 4 trait lines instead of 3 and it still wouldn't be OP. That's where we are right now.

nah i disagree here too. its rly not that bad. the overall power lvl is in a good state and the state from other classes should just be brought down to that.

^ . ^ okay

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Jazz.4639" I dont see a difference between nerfing meta to the state of mesmer, or buffing mesmer to the state of meta. In all honesty its going to be easier to buff mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger so that they are closer to what is now meta then it will be to nerf everything else.Mesmer is in a shitty state, not only balance wise but mosty importantly role wise, there is nothing it has going for it and it should be a massive red flag.ranger,mesmer and warrior share same problem, and weaver too honestly. Sure its not THAT bad but its not good either, and there is nothing unique that it really has so I didnt even see one in 100 of games

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Jazz.4639" I dont see a difference between nerfing meta to the state of mesmer, or buffing mesmer to the state of meta. In all honesty its going to be easier to buff mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger so that they are closer to what is now meta then it will be to nerf everything else.Mesmer is in a kitten state, not only balance wise but mosty importantly role wise, there is nothing it has going for it and it should be a massive red flag.ranger,mesmer and warrior share same problem, and weaver too honestly. Sure its not THAT bad but its not good either, and there is nothing unique that it really has so I didnt even see one in 100 of games

the difference is big. there are classes atm have access to rly broken stuff, stuff you dont want to exist, you dont want in the game, stuff that clearly needs nerfs and you dont want to buff another class to that lvl. at least thats my opinion. and i think if this stuff is fixed some day (yeah i know muhahaha) mesmer will not be in a bad spot overall. mirage needs its second dodge back for mechanical reasons and to avoid the dumb down spiral but not as a buff.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Jazz.4639" I have played games with broken things that balance the game out, every class needs broken things to be viable, and distinguishable from one another.But its just my opinion so whatever.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Jazz.4639" I have played games with broken things that balance the game out, every class needs broken things to be viable, and distinguishable from one another.But its just my opinion so whatever.

haha all good :)

[Quadox.7834]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

i dont understand your first point, the doc doesnt ask for buffs. it just wants to REPLACE a bad and senseless nerf (one dodge) with other nerfs make more sense and actually solve the problems and not just cover them. or nerfs that are still just covers but at least with less harmful secondary effects.

the one dodge nerf (even when called only a number change) produces a lot of mechanical issues cannot be solved by simple number changes or by core mesmer changes and since chrono (before it got ip back) and mirage were nerfed in such insane wrong ways made me go for elite balance doc first bc i felt they are more in need of emergency changes. during the progress with the doc chrono got ip back already so it turned out to be about mirage mostly. anyway it doesnt mean core balance is less important or i want to ignore it. and the moment i feel like it makes sense to make a second document for core changes i will do it.

some of the changes in the doc are quite complicated and not guaranteed to work so have a risk to end up wasted effort.

some things inread in the doc sound broken as well, such as jaunt with 20 sec cd + leaving behind mirror.

the doc is just a summary and yes i also think some of the suggested changes (like the total reworks of mirage in section F) are too much work and too complicated to have any chance to be taken by the balance team. but they might offer some idea for mirage or even for the next elite spec and i didnt want to limit ideas from ppl participating too much. cmc/ balance team can look by themself what they find is too complicated and what maybe needs adjustments to be not op overall in the end.

i cannot rly remember the jaunt change you mentioned but it was most likely just one part of a whole mirage rework concept in section F. no one would give current mirage a jaunt with extra mirror generation. so you have to read this suggestion in the context of the nerfs were included in the concept it was part of. and even then it is still anets part to finetune the concepts so they are not op in the end.

@"Yoci.2481" said:You could allow Mesmer to have 4 trait lines instead of 3 and it still wouldn't be OP. That's where we are right now.

nah i disagree here too. its rly not that bad. the overall power lvl is in a good state and the state from other classes should just be brought down to that. remarkable buffs to the power lvl are not needed then i think. but the dumbed down spiral and the contradiction of spec mechanics created by the one dodge nerf which doesnt even solve the underlying problems needs to be replaced with other nerfs make more sense (that is ofc in stupid hope that all other classes get brought down to around that lvl in the near future muhaha yeah well lets see...). and i talk about power mirage, condi mes (mirage and chrono) is even less in need of any buff. esp for mirage not suprising bc the one dodge nerf didnt rly solve any problems.

my point is that some of these more complex suggestions are unnecessary, like reworking all shatters. kinda like the chrono rework they easily could end up being a lot of wasted effort and dev time that should go to expac and reworking some mesmer traits. if you really want to restore 2 dodges (which would be good to make pvp mirage more congruent with pve mirage) maybe the -vitality would work, but i personally think they should just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil - that is the cause of a lot of "dodge spam" complaints.

if core is buffed and some core traits reworked (like chaotic interruption) we would have to see how it affects mirage power level. mirage is not super bad right now. nerf thief consume plasma and holosmith and that would already help mesmer alot.

[Quadox.7834]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Jazz.4639" I have played games with broken things that balance the game out, every class needs broken things to be viable, and distinguishable from one another.But its just my opinion so whatever.

kinda true but mesmer sort of does have some broken stuff, such as the daze spam from de+ih. and dodging while stunned and immobed is also pretty broken.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Quadox.7834 said:

my point is that some of these more complex suggestions are unnecessary, like reworking all shatters. kinda like the chrono rework they easily could end up being a lot of wasted effort and dev time that should go to expac and reworking some mesmer traits. if you really want to restore 2 dodges (which would be good to make pvp mirage more congruent with pve mirage) maybe the -vitality would work, but i personally think they should just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil - that is the cause of a lot of "dodge spam" complaints.

yes as i said, i am the same opinion, a total elite rework is most likely too much work and too complicated but i didnt want to limit ideas from the community too much and some ideas have some nice parts maybe can be used separately from the whole concept they were included or just for the next elite. i just made the summary, its a community work. to some stuff i agree to some stuff i dont agree but its not my job to decide and to finetune. so the doc is just about providing ideas anet can think about and develop something own.

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Jazz.4639" I have played games with broken things that balance the game out, every class needs broken things to be viable, and distinguishable from one another.But its just my opinion so whatever.

kinda true but mesmer sort of does have some broken stuff, such as the daze spam from de+ih. and dodging while stunned and immobed is also pretty broken.

i highly disagree about ih/de on power being broken. power ih interrupt mirage is pretty much the most challenging and highest skillneed power build and with that the most interesting for me to play power mes build until now. it gives you so much more combos and outplay moves (at least when you have 2 dodges and can work with ambushes by dodging offensive). i love it and as a challenge player i would not like it when i would think that it is hard carrying. the clone leap has good counterplay and neither sword nor gs have op rewards on their clone ambushes and dodgetraits are ok in terms of balance as long as they force offensive dodges and have a balanced reward (not what explosive engis have atm, while engis and other classes dont even need 2 traits for a reward on every dodge).

the only thing could make it a bit better is, when we could separate the ambush activation from the endurance dodges and give it its own activation button, so you do not have a clone daze leap automatically every dodge you have a sword clone up, even when you just want to dodge an attack. i would love that too bc that way i do not have to waste an ambush activation (from me or clones) when i just want to dodge an attack or to waste a dodge when i just want the ambush reward but now can time the ambushes when i need them for their own purpose (and even tho you get a little reward from ih clones on attack evasion but it is so low in most cases, esp when counterplayed well, that i would highly prefer to use ambushes only when i rly want the ambushes and not the dodge in the first place - reason why even the passive reward from ih/de is not broken on power). also we would need to give every class with a dodge trait the same treatment then and it will most likely not happen.

being able to dodge while stunned/immob is something i questioned right in my first guide about mirage in the first beta. no one listened back then. sadly there is no way to split this ability from a dodge that is supposed to be instant. so all we can do from that point is to put mc the way it is into an environment where mc gets balanced out by other weaknesses of the spec/ class. and that in a better way than with the one dodge nerf. that is lit what the doc tries to do.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Quadox.7834 I dont find dodging while stunned unique, most classes can avoid/remove CC to the point where its impossible to be shut down by it even more then mesmer, so it doesnt even give any real advantage.Only really unique thing is EM, while dodging removes immob/fear, that is unique and VERY valuable.But I ment it in a more grander scheme. Like thief is the fastest and best roamer, tempest can no counterplay rez while also being the best support, reaper having by far the most damage potential etc.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:I dont find dodging while stunned unique, most classes can avoid/remove CC to the point where its impossible to be shut down by it even more then mesmer, so it doesnt even give any real advantage.

half agree, the problem is how frequent mirage could do that, clearly more often than any other class can by weaponskills or utilities. so they already nerfed mirage endurance reggen hard bc of it before the one dodge change. still on every dodge the cd is rly low. on a very vulnerable build like full glass power that also is forced to dodge very offensive to have enough impact it is kinda no problem. but combine that with more bunkerish traitlines and you get a nearly unpunishable spec. combine that even more with condi ambushes which do not force offensive dodges and you have a very defensive playstyle with pretty passive offensive power.in the end i think mc by itself can be made balanced as long as the spec has weaknesses balance it out.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I like your optimism that these suggestions went anywhere but the trash, but I have an entire bottle of 10-year aged Scotch that says almost zero of these suggestions will make it into the game.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:hope dies at last :)

[Quadox.7834]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Quadox.7834" I dont find dodging while stunned unique, most classes can avoid/remove CC to the point where its impossible to be shut down by it even more then mesmer, so it doesnt even give any real advantage.Only really unique thing is EM, while dodging removes immob/fear, that is unique and VERY valuable.But I ment it in a more grander scheme. Like thief is the fastest and best roamer, tempest can no counterplay rez while also being the best support, reaper having by far the most damage potential etc.

yes but i thought we were just talking about kinda busted mechanics so i remarked that attacking during evade and evade during stun+immob is indeed broken, which is balanced out rn by mirage being "understat-ed" compared to other specs. and yes ofc i agree that mirage is not the best in any particular role rn :)

[Quadox.7834]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

my point is that some of these more complex suggestions are unnecessary, like reworking all shatters. kinda like the chrono rework they easily could end up being a lot of wasted effort and dev time that should go to expac and reworking some mesmer traits. if you really want to restore 2 dodges (which would be good to make pvp mirage more congruent with pve mirage) maybe the -vitality would work, but i personally think they should just restore 2 dodges and remove energy sigil - that is the cause of a lot of "dodge spam" complaints.

yes as i said, i am the same opinion, a total elite rework is most likely too much work and too complicated but i didnt want to limit ideas from the community too much and some ideas have some nice parts maybe can be used separately from the whole concept they were included or just for the next elite. i just made the summary, its a community work. to some stuff i agree to some stuff i dont agree but its not my job to decide and to finetune. so the doc is just about providing ideas anet can think about and develop something own.

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Jazz.4639" I have played games with broken things that balance the game out, every class needs broken things to be viable, and distinguishable from one another.But its just my opinion so whatever.

kinda true but mesmer sort of does have some broken stuff, such as the daze spam from de+ih. and dodging while stunned and immobed is also pretty broken.

i highly disagree about ih/de on power being broken. power ih interrupt mirage is pretty much the most challenging and highest skillneed power build and with that the most interesting for me to play power mes build until now. it gives you so much more combos and outplay moves (at least when you have 2 dodges and can work with ambushes by dodging offensive). i love it and as a challenge player i would not like it when i would think that it is hard carrying. the clone leap has good counterplay and neither sword nor gs have op rewards on their clone ambushes and dodgetraits are ok in terms of balance as long as they force offensive dodges and have a balanced reward (not what explosive engis have atm, while engis and other classes dont even need 2 traits for a reward on every dodge).

the only thing could make it a bit better is, when we could separate the ambush activation from the endurance dodges and give it its own activation button, so you do not have a clone daze leap automatically every dodge you have a sword clone up, even when you just want to dodge an attack. i would love that too bc that way i do not have to waste an ambush activation (from me or clones) when i just want to dodge an attack or to waste a dodge when i just want the ambush reward but now can time the ambushes when i need them for their own purpose (and even tho you get a little reward from ih clones on attack evasion but it is so low in most cases, esp when counterplayed well, that i would highly prefer to use ambushes only when i rly want the ambushes and not the dodge in the first place - reason why even the passive reward from ih/de is not broken on power). also we would need to give every class with a dodge trait the same treatment then and it will most likely not happen.

being able to dodge while stunned/immob is something i questioned right in my first guide about mirage in the first beta. no one listened back then. sadly there is no way to split this ability from a dodge that is supposed to be instant. so all we can do from that point is to put mc the way it is into an environment where mc gets balanced out by other weaknesses of the spec/ class. and that in a better way than with the one dodge nerf. that is lit what the doc tries to do.

oh dont get me wrong ih power is a fun and skilled build with fun combos (and the build i play, when i play...) but i am just saying that the daze+vuln spam is sorta broken on paper, which you can see by comparing to core gw2. i am NOT saying that this makes the build op though, it isn't.

i just wanted to point out that the problem with mirage is mainly just being understat-ed, not a lack of a unique and broken mechanic or anything.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Quadox.7834 said:i just wanted to point out that the problem with mirage is mainly just being understat-ed, not a lack of a unique and broken mechanic or anything.yeah funny thing is, mirage is understated bc anet tries to balance out the on paper broken mechanics from mc in totally wrong ways and doesnt even care that they also dumb it down on builds where it is already balanced out by design or other weaknesses and instead only cover the problems on the old meta condi ih build without a real solution. big ooof

[JazzXman.7018]

hi all :) in case someone is interested and wants to fill some lockdown time:

i got interviewed by the ArenaLabs Podcast guys about mesmer balance. Its a very long interview and im nervous as crazy and my english is kinda bad but i hope its still somehow interesting for some of you and it gets clear what im talking about. the biggest topic is the one dodge nerf from mirage, explaining mirage mechanics, the beauty of power mirage with all its active, cool and skillful outplay combos (also showing and explaining power mirage gameplay with ingame footage examples), so going rly deep into mirage mechancis to understand why the one dodge nerf is bad and a dumb down for the spec and the basic dodgemanagement. Also talking about some core/ chrono mesmer balance wishes and we also talk about what i like to play as a challenge player and also a short discussion about powerblock and daze mantra topic.

There is also a part 1 you can find on the ArenaLaps Podcast youtube channel just as a lot of other cool interviews of other pvp player incl a long interview with CmC and footage from the inhouses you might wanna check out too.

Still no answer from CmC to the document btw :(

[phokus.8934]

@JazzXman.7018 said:Still no answer from CmC to the document btw :(

I’m not sure why you have any expectation that he would. There’s a lot wrong with Mesmer as a whole but there’s a reason why you don’t let the inmates run the asylum.

[JazzXman.7018]

@phokus.8934 said:

@JazzXman.7018 said:Still no answer from CmC to the document btw :(

I’m not sure why you have any expectation that he would. There’s a lot wrong with Mesmer as a whole but there’s a reason why you don’t let the inmates run the asylum.

i expect it bc he answered me after i sent the document that he will read and give feedback and in my world you stand for your words/promisses

[Yoci.2481]

Wow cool, I will watch it when I have the time. You are doing a lot for the community! :)

[phokus.8934]

@JazzXman.7018 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@JazzXman.7018 said:Still no answer from CmC to the document btw :(

I’m not sure why you have any expectation that he would. There’s a lot wrong with Mesmer as a whole but there’s a reason why you don’t let the inmates run the asylum.

i expect it bc he answered me after i sent the document that he will read and give feedback and in my world you stand for your words/promisses

They say a lot of things and never come through. Take it for a grain of salt and don't expect much.

[JazzXman.7018]

@Yoci.2481 said:Wow cool, I will watch it when I have the time. You are doing a lot for the community! :)

nice to hear that, i hope you will enjoy :)

@phokus.8934 said:

@JazzXman.7018 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@JazzXman.7018 said:Still no answer from CmC to the document btw :(

I’m not sure why you have any expectation that he would. There’s a lot wrong with Mesmer as a whole but there’s a reason why you don’t let the inmates run the asylum.

i expect it bc he answered me after i sent the document that he will read and give feedback and in my world you stand for your words/promisses

They say a lot of things and never come through. Take it for a grain of salt and don't expect much.

no worries i will not cry myself to sleep when cmc is breaking his promisses

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its not the first time promises were broken, more often balance updates and the topic that is more elusive then mirage is alliances.

[JazzXman.7018]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:Its not the first time promises were broken, more often balance updates and the topic that is more elusive then mirage is alliances.

yes i know :(btw i added an index/ timestamp comment under the interview vid part 2, so you can see when we talk about what and can right jump to the topics you are interested in

[Salt Mode.3780]

this is the cycle of mesmer and im sure it has been repeated by others many times....nerf to crap > expansion (OP) > nerf to crap > expansion (OP) and the thing they fail to realize is an expansion isn't going to solve the core issue, its only going to make things more complicated to solve by adding more layers of crap.