Should dps meters get banned?

[sasya neko.1985]

it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

[skarpak.8594]

@"sorudo.9054" said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

so your reasoning for all the efficient teambuilds for pve in gw1 is because "dps doesn't matter"? why did people then play teambuilds with stuff like spiteful spirit nec in the deep which deleted hundreds of enemies with just 2 skills in seconds? why did people play rojway, cryway, hundred blades nuke and other shit like this in all the hm speedclears. because damage didn't matter? yikes dude.

ofc you don't need a dps meter when you nuke everything with a single skill....gw1 is major different in terms of teambuilding and synergies to the point that you cannot compare both games at all. 181+ skillactivations in a 1 min 30 seconds fight is not something you had in gw1. thats 2 skills per second.

[TrOtskY.5927]

@sorudo.9054 said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

I don't understand this part - a coordinated team that has all the required healing and boons is very crucial to current end game content, so what do you mean? Taking away the DPS requirements would simply mean people can double down on the less demanding aspects such as not dodging and instead just overheal everything and over-boon everything... it means they are punished less for mistakes....I think I need elaboration on your point. Team-Wipes are common place as this game has a huge number (even in open world) of heavy damage sources that can one shot players....this is prolific in raid content as well....so what do you mean?

[Naxos.2503]

@TrOtskY.5927 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

I don't understand this part - a coordinated team that has all the required healing and boons is very crucial to current end game content, so what do you mean? Taking away the DPS requirements would simply mean people can double down on the less demanding aspects such as not dodging and instead just overheal everything and over-boon everything... it means they are punished less for mistakes....I think I need elaboration on your point. Team-Wipes are common place as this game has a huge number (even in open world) of heavy damage sources that can one shot players....this is prolific in raid content as well....so what do you mean?

I think they infer that the DPS focus on end game is born out of a desire for speed and simplicity, but at the same time adds a layer of complexity from outside of the game. Arguably a lot of the DPS focus is meant to skip the Enrage timer, as well as limit the time spent in each individual phase of the fight. So if you follow that line of thinking, you can lessen the need for DPS by stepping down on the Enrage timer (something I'm not necessarily against, considering that it's brutal if you go beyond to the point it ends the fight immediately, or is skipped entirely, so essentially it's either something nobody sees if you're good, or something you see once for a very brief time before a wipe). I wouldn't want to step down on the phases though. If the timer alone is gone, people would atleast have the choice to play mechanics, or play speed. It might attract a different kind of public to raid at the very least.

TLDR : If there is no need to DPS, there is no need to monitor it constantly and take "make or break" decisions based on it, is what they're saying.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@TrOtskY.5927 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

I don't understand this part - a coordinated team that has all the required healing and boons is very crucial to current end game content, so what do you mean? Taking away the DPS requirements would simply mean people can double down on the less demanding aspects such as not dodging and instead just overheal everything and over-boon everything... it means they are punished less for mistakes....I think I need elaboration on your point. Team-Wipes are common place as this game has a huge number (even in open world) of heavy damage sources that can one shot players....this is prolific in raid content as well....so what do you mean?

I think they infer that the DPS focus on end game is born out of a desire for speed and simplicity, but at the same time adds a layer of complexity from outside of the game. Arguably a lot of the DPS focus is meant to skip the Enrage timer, as well as limit the time spent in each individual phase of the fight. So if you follow that line of thinking, you can lessen the need for DPS by stepping down on the Enrage timer (something I'm not necessarily against, considering that it's brutal if you go beyond to the point it ends the fight immediately, or is skipped entirely, so essentially it's either something nobody sees if you're good, or something you see once for a very brief time before a wipe). I wouldn't want to step down on the phases though. If the timer alone is gone, people would atleast have the choice to play mechanics, or play speed. It might attract a different kind of public to raid at the very least.

TLDR : If there is no need to DPS, there is no need to monitor it constantly and take "make or break" decisions based on it, is what they're saying.

You can already do this on some bosses though. You can auto attack only on soldiers gear and still kill cairn within the enrage timer. No one wants to play this way because chances are if you think soliders gear is good, you likely are not skilled enough to do mechanics perfectly for 10 minutes straight.

[ChillyKoti.1928]

With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist.

[Tayga.3192]

@Edge.8724 said:With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist.

Finally

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@sorudo.9054 said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

Og gw1 had a very tight build rec tho

[sasya neko.1985]

@skarpak.8594 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:it doesn't actually needs to be banned, the game needs to be made so DPs isn't the most important part of the game.the original GW has none of this, no need to DPs everything when a boss can whipe a party in one hit, that's when a well established team is crusual.

so your reasoning for all the efficient teambuilds for pve in gw1 is because "dps doesn't matter"? why did people then play teambuilds with stuff like spiteful spirit nec in the deep which deleted hundreds of enemies with just 2 skills in seconds? why did people play rojway, cryway, hundred blades nuke and other kitten like this in all the hm speedclears. because damage didn't matter? yikes dude.

ofc you don't need a dps meter when you nuke everything with a single skill....gw1 is major different in terms of teambuilding and synergies to the point that you cannot compare both games at all. 181+ skillactivations in a 1 min 30 seconds fight is not something you had in gw1. thats 2 skills per second.

i never said that it doesn't matter, i said that DPS isn't the main focus in GW1.in GW2 however, low DPS means no team, regardless of your reasoning and skill.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"sorudo.9054" said:

i never said that it doesn't matter, i said that DPS isn't the main focus in GW1.in GW2 however, low DPS means no team, regardless of your reasoning and skill.Same in GW1 - in any more challenging environment the group did need to do certain level of damage, or there was no point. It wasn't "dps", because the damage was mostly done in bursts, not sustain, but the requirement for high damage was as high there as it is in GW2.

[Kyochi.1895]

Well, no. Just no, there's nothing wrong with ppl measuring thier PvE performance when thier role is to DPS.

It should be just like it's in FFXIV, DPS Meters are not officialy approved, but as long as you keep it for yourself while in public group you're in no danger of being banned or anything, but if you're going to be toxic and abusive cause player X does low DPS in your opinion and then harass him/kick him from the group - that's another story and such behaviors should be punished.

Remember that DPS meter is just a tool to measure your damage output, nothing more, nothing less but how people use it may lead to toxic behavior.

[maddoctor.2738]

@sorudo.9054 said:i never said that it doesn't matter, i said that DPS isn't the main focus in GW1.in GW2 however, low DPS means no team, regardless of your reasoning and skill.

That's because in GW1 doing high dps has one requirement: build. Two players with the exact same build do -almost- the same damage (and healing and everything else), rotations in GW1 aren't required (except in some very rare cases) and the difference between average and high damage is minimal at best.

Other than that of course damage was the absolute main focus in GW1 as the best skills for damage were the ones used in the game, why do you think life stealing skills were so popular? Because they ignored armor, meaning they did more damage than other skills.

GW1 is a very simplistic game to play, when it comes to damage, as maintaining certain buffs to survive can be rather complex (Ether Renewal for example in an E/Mo healer), GW2 is much more complex when it comes to damage because it DOES have rotations, and skill (rather: proper rotations) make a gigantic difference.

[Itsmez.8095]

I dont even need to explain why i voted no, its obvious.Hello from new player :)

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Edge.8724 said:With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist.

Finally

not quite correct

With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist. In addition, dps meters encourage negative behaviours in certain scenarios (skewed view on certain statistics). This in turn bleeds into other game types where some additional players fails to learn to differentiate between tuning levels between pve content types.

In saying that, meters are ok in the right arena. The real issue is lack of normal mode raids, meaning its one way or the highway for the vast majority of players . Other AAA Mmorpg games have normal mode raids that are played by the vast majority of the player base and meters are not an issue because the pressure is relaxed. In GW2 the opposite is true.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Edge.8724 said:With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist.

Finally

not quite correct

With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist. In addition, dps meters encourage negative behaviours in certain scenarios (skewed view on certain statistics). This in turn bleeds into other game types where some additional players fails to learn to differentiate between tuning levels between pve content types.

In saying that, meters are ok in the right arena. The real issue is lack of normal mode raids, meaning its one way or the highway for the vast majority of players . Other AAA Mmorpg games have normal mode raids that are played by the vast majority of the player base and meters are not an issue because the pressure is relaxed. In GW2 the opposite is true.

GW2 can't even allocate sufficient resources for one difficulty level, let alone multiple. And if it weren't DPS meters, it would be something else. The tool isn't the problem. The problem is that some people are tools.

[Cuks.8241]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

GW2 can't even allocate sufficient resources for one difficulty level, let alone multiple. And if it weren't DPS meters, it would be something else. The tool isn't the problem. The problem is that some people are tools.

And in addition, GW2 has this whole open world which is actually alive, played and just as detailed and with cool bosses as raids in other games. And there is almost no dps requirement and no one ever cares about dps meters.

[arielqueen.6587]

DPS meter is one of the reason why i don't want to go raid and strike mission.

[WindBlade.8749]

@Edge.8724 said:With DPS meter: People are elitist.Without DPS meter: People are elitist.

it's more Like

With dps meter: People are elitist, but can see that you do your job with an objetive metric (no need AP or gears or others things)Without dps metter: People are toxic elitist, no one can see who do the job, so they just ask stupid thing (because their is nothing better), like AP, and just ban off-meta build.

And if you do your job, enough dps or enough boon uptime, why it's will even matter that people can see it.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS... Something seems a bit off about that, from where I'm sitting. If they're not being used to evaluate other players, how do they know that a non-meta build is putting out "satisfactory" DPS?

Reading through to this point, I've seen about what I expected to see based on conversations about this, or similar, mechanics elsewhere. Some are dead set against it, feeling like it's being used to "spy", and others are super gung-ho about it being in, so that they can "not monitor" what other players are doing... It's comparable to DDO's kill count, which was being used to justify disenfranchising classes from the "meta" because they're not killing enough mobs, or to justify nerfs when someone that believes they are the "bestest player evah" got "beat" by another character on the list.

Note: I didn't vote, because I believe that there shouldn't be any 3rd party software running in an MMO. While most are harmless overall, they can be abused, in one fashion or another, including as hacks to gain unfair advantages.

[Taril.8619]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

[robertthebard.8150]

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

The problem with quoting something out of context is that you lose the context. DPS meters are, in fact, used to track other player's DPS, or nobody would know that "Necros are fine". It's evidently not just the "buttheads" that are doing it, right? Also of note, I did not call for their removal. While I don't believe that 3rd party software should allowed, nowhere did I state that they should in fact disallow it. I don't think they should be a thing, so I don't use them, but nowhere did I try to dictate what others should or shouldn't do, that's allowed by the devs.

[Taril.8619]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

DPS meters are, in fact, used to track other player's DPS, or nobody would know that "Necros are fine".

The notion of "Necros are fine" isn't necessarily indicative of DPS meters being used to track other player's DPS.

Since the notion can be brought across because someone on their own Necro managed to hit numbers similar to other classes and then disseminated that information. Then, when it becomes public knowledge, people no longer need to use a DPS meter to know "Necro's are fine".

Which is the case. Not everyone uses DPS meters. But most people know that "Necro's are fine". As it's public knowledge now. There's no need for Necro's to perform to a standard while being monitored to prove their right to be in a party, people just invite them and get on with things.

Such a thing is true across the board. No-one needs to prove their classes worth because people who've tested things with DPS meters, have made the knowledge widespread that there are no classes in the game that are horrible DPS. Even if they're not "Meta" any class can be utilized and perform well.

With the only notable exceptions are when looking at the top 0.01% min/max scenarios with (Nigh) perfect performances across the board where "Non-meta" classes get pushed down.

@robertthebard.8150 said:It's evidently not just the "buttheads" that are doing it, right?

It's just the "buttheads" that are prioritizing DPS meters for discrimination purposes.

Most people prioritize self performance (Or team performance in static groups) and discriminate only in more extreme situations.

@robertthebard.8150 said:Also of note, I did not call for their removal.

Nor did I state you did.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

DPS meters are, in fact, used to track other player's DPS, or nobody would know that "Necros are fine".

The notion of "Necros are fine" isn't necessarily indicative of DPS meters being used to track other player's DPS.

Since the notion can be brought across because someone on their own Necro managed to hit numbers similar to other classes and then disseminated that information. Then, when it becomes public knowledge, people no longer need to use a DPS meter to know "Necro's are fine".

Which is the case. Not everyone uses DPS meters. But most people know that "Necro's are fine". As it's public knowledge now. There's no need for Necro's to perform to a standard while being monitored to prove their right to be in a party, people just invite them and get on with things.

Such a thing is true across the board. No-one needs to prove their classes worth because people who've tested things with DPS meters, have made the knowledge widespread that there are no classes in the game that are horrible DPS. Even if they're not "Meta" any class can be utilized and perform well.

With the only notable exceptions are when looking at the top 0.01% min/max scenarios with (Nigh) perfect performances across the board where "Non-meta" classes get pushed down.

@robertthebard.8150 said:It's evidently not just the "buttheads" that are doing it, right?

It's just the "buttheads" that are prioritizing DPS meters for discrimination purposes.

Most people prioritize self performance (Or team performance in static groups) and discriminate only in more extreme situations.

@robertthebard.8150 said:Also of note, I did not call for their removal.

Nor did I state you did.

Then why did you claim it was:

**Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.**

This is copy/pasted from the first post I quoted in this chain...

[AliamRationem.5172]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

The problem with quoting something out of context is that you lose the context. DPS meters are, in fact, used to track other player's DPS, or nobody would know that "Necros are fine". It's evidently not just the "buttheads" that are doing it, right? Also of note, I did not call for their removal. While I don't believe that 3rd party software should allowed, nowhere did I state that they should in fact disallow it. I don't think they should be a thing, so I don't use them, but nowhere did I try to dictate what others should or shouldn't do, that's allowed by the devs.

Obviously, the tool does what it does and people use it how they're going to use it. What separates "buttheads" from everyone else is that they treat other players poorly. As this thread has demonstrated, this is true whether you use arcdps or not.

[Taril.8619]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:This is an issue of ppl spying on what other ppl do in groups.

If people are wanting to do some content that requires a certain amount of DPS, surely they should be allowed to make note of when people are not performing to a satisfactory level?

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Or kick ppl for not playing the meta.

Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Pleasw explain why you choosed an option

DPS meters are a helpful tool. But they're just that, a tool. It's down to how a person uses it.

Many people don't care about other people's DPS, so long as it's not abysmal. They'd rather just focus on improving their own performance and DPS meters are the way to accurately track that.

Discrimination from DPS meters is a minor aspect of them as a whole (One that is not unique to them either, just look at LI/killproof complaint threads...). An aspect that their very existence can actually help combat.

So I'm confused, on one hand you state that DPS meters do allow "non-meta" builds, but that they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS...

When did I say they aren't used to evaluate other player's DPS?

I merely stated that most people don't really care about monitoring other player's DPS and/or discriminating against people for having mediocre or bad DPS so long as it's not abysmal (I.e. A pure DPS class being out DPS'd by the full Marshal geared Healer)

Even THEN many people don't even care until it starts to actually be a problem, such as failure to beat bosses in time.

A large number of players whom use DPS meters, really just care about personal DPS and self improvement. With the discrimination usage only being in some extreme scenarios for them, where players are actively harming the ability to complete some content.

A minority of players simply want to discriminate against players because they're buttheads and will try and use DPS numbers to aggressively discriminate against anyone they can (Sometimes without regard for their own terrible performance)

A useful tool for a majority of players shouldn't be removed because a minority of players are buttheads. Otherwise, we'd have to get rid of everything because no matter what, a minority of players will be buttheads...

DPS meters are, in fact, used to track other player's DPS, or nobody would know that "Necros are fine".

The notion of "Necros are fine" isn't necessarily indicative of DPS meters being used to track other player's DPS.

Since the notion can be brought across because someone on their own Necro managed to hit numbers similar to other classes and then disseminated that information. Then, when it becomes public knowledge, people no longer need to use a DPS meter to know "Necro's are fine".

Which is the case. Not everyone uses DPS meters. But most people know that "Necro's are fine". As it's public knowledge now. There's no need for Necro's to perform to a standard while being monitored to prove their right to be in a party, people just invite them and get on with things.

Such a thing is true across the board. No-one needs to prove their classes worth because people who've tested things with DPS meters, have made the knowledge widespread that there are no classes in the game that are horrible DPS. Even if they're not "Meta" any class can be utilized and perform well.

With the only notable exceptions are when looking at the top 0.01% min/max scenarios with (Nigh) perfect performances across the board where "Non-meta" classes get pushed down.

@robertthebard.8150 said:It's evidently not just the "buttheads" that are doing it, right?

It's just the "buttheads" that are prioritizing DPS meters for discrimination purposes.

Most people prioritize self performance (Or team performance in static groups) and discriminate only in more extreme situations.

@robertthebard.8150 said:Also of note, I did not call for their removal.

Nor did I state you did.

Then why did you claim it was:

**Ironically, DPS meters help prevent this very thing.

Without DPS meters, people will kick for "Not playing meta". While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build.

DPS meters are the reason why people are allowed to play Necromancer. Before DPS meters were popular, people would not let Necro's into parties because they "Weren't meta" but once people realized that Reapers could actually put out decent numbers (For a rando PuG run) they're now accepted into parties.**

This is copy/pasted from the first post I quoted in this chain...

Yes, I wrote that.

Have you read it though?

Nothing in that is specifically mentioning that DPS meters are used to monitor other players DPS.

Only the line "While with DPS meters, people can actually see if you perform to a satisfactory standard on a non-meta build" could be construed to mean that, but it isn't the only meaning.

People will look for a "Satisfactory standard" of DPS, but most people don't care enough to specificy what that is unless a group is failing content where they will then look at what the problem(s) might be and thus look to see if player(s) are not performing very well at all.

The popularization of DPS meters, means that more people are recording their own DPS on various non-meta builds and disseminating such info across the game, build sites (Like metabattle and even Snow Crows puts up non-meta builds) and also the forums.

If someone is being a butthead about DPS numbers and discriminating heavily as a result, well... Now they can do it based on your actual performance by checking their DPS meter, instead of doing what these people used to do, which was discriminate based on arbitrary things such as Class or Achievement Points and thus deny access to a party before you even entered.