Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Balance: Thief vs Ranger


Eventine.8024

Recommended Posts

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

He was a [sA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe ,
thief is one of the top duelist in WvW
, when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually possible, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....I really couldn't care less at this point

No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

He was a [sA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe ,
thief is one of the top duelist in WvW
, when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually
possible
, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....
I really couldn't care less at this point

No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

Nope you are wrongShe the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

https://imgur.com/a/ZRueFiRhttps://imgur.com/a/urWbgta

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"UNOwen.7132" said:No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.Too bad few thieves run kitten builds that cant do damage then.I've been hit for 3k autoattacks from rifle DEs and that's on trailblazer/dire "squishy" armor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Naqam a.6521 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

He was a [sA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe ,
thief is one of the top duelist in WvW
, when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually
possible
, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....
I really couldn't care less at this point

No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

Nope you are wrongShe the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

I literally said that it was a front backstab. And that a proper backstab would do 4k. 4k on a squishy is still a lot less than 6k on a supposed 4k armour build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"UNOwen.7132"

“Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”

“those fights thief just cant win.”

“"Stealth" useless for defense.”

“but Deadeye is trash”

“stealth may well do literally nothing. Thats why its useless for defense”

And for a reminder...

"On flat ground (which WvW has a lot of), Ranger does have more mobility.”

Can you post that ranger build that has more mobility than any thief build?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

He was a [sA] thief and I was standing still in bay, my aim was to calculate how much dmg I could receive while having the highest possible armor rating on a ranger. From the screenshot you can see that it all happened within the space of 1.5s. I am not suggesting whether the build is legitimate or a hack because I don't care really...all I am saying that thief is far from being the weak class as some would make you believe ,
thief is one of the top duelist in WvW
, when it comes to 1v1 potential thief and ranger are a cut above the rest when mastered though and that's fine given their core design ideology.

And Im suggesting that since the damage numbers are much higher than is actually
possible
, either you were lying about having 4k toughness, or there were shenanigans afoot (most likely the latter). Thief is not a top duelist in WvW, nor is it anywhere close. It loses almost every 1v1 against an equally skilled player (the exception is stuff like condi mesmer because consume plasma is dumb). Now what thief is good at, is not dying, but not losing is not winning either. In terms of 1v1 potential, the top 3 are probably Ranger, some version of Engineer, and either warrior or Revenant.

Yes...I know that whatever I say won't stop people from shouting : "my class is UP buff me", if Anet wants to give 20k backstab dmg to thieves let them....with my screenshot I have proved that thieves do high dmg...that's all....now people can keep asking for buff all they want till they shut down these servers....
I really couldn't care less at this point

No, you have not proven that at all. You have only proven that you can show a misleading screenshot. I have already shown what the damage numbers are actually like with a video. We saw that a squishy target takes 4k from a backstab. So your screenshot simply cant be more than nonsense.

Nope you are wrongShe the video again and see how the backstab mechanic works :)

I literally said that it was a front backstab. And that a proper backstab would do 4k. 4k on a squishy is still a lot less than 6k on a supposed 4k armour build.

a) As the video YOU linked shows that thieves use stealth in combat:)b) 0:20 + 0:28 = 5,300 WvWvW0:53 = 5000 PvP1:13 = 6400 WvWvW

c) if he used Assassin signet + Lighting/Fire sigil + 800 from Leach+Siphon, the ''burst'' (combination of attacks to maximize damage) would rise

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"UNOwen.7132"

Unfortunately for you, those random videos go directly against what you said about thief.

And this applies too... “Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.”... Now you may feel these ways about thief based off of your own proficiency level with thief, but they aren’t based on facts. Just because you may not be as skilled with thief doesn’t mean “Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”, “those fights thief just cant win.”, “"Stealth" useless for defense.”, “but Deadeye is trash”, “stealth may well do literally nothing.”... and so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagger.1459 said:@"UNOwen.7132"

Unfortunately for you, those random videos go directly against what you said about thief.

No they dont. Remember, I said thief loses every 1v1 against equally skilled players. Its actually quite good at killing those that are a lot worse than them. And you can find plenty of those in WvW. The thing with montages is, they are cherry-picked. They only show the times the thief wins. For all we know they couldve lost 1000 times and won 10 times. The montage would look no different. And well, we can see many of those players are not of equal skill. Not to mention some of them are not even from this year.

And this applies too... “Yeah except nothing is wrong. If there was something wrong youd have an actual argument, but alas, you do not.”... Now you may feel these ways about thief based off of your own proficiency level with thief, but they aren’t based on facts. Just because you may not be as skilled with thief doesn’t mean “Anyway a thief obviously cant win a 1v1 against a ranger”, “those fights thief just cant win.”, “"Stealth" useless for defense.”, “but Deadeye is trash”, “stealth may well do literally nothing.”... and so on.

No, I know this because I play against many thieves. Its based on fact. I did well enough with thief. Didnt die against equally skilled players (but obviously never killed them either), stomped worse players. But thats not a terribly exciting way to play, so I ditched thief years ago. Nowadays I only face thieves. And since Im not significantly worse than the thieves I meet, I dont die to them. I dont think Ive lost a 1v1 to a thief unless I was playing deadeye in a very long time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobility

It has equal mobility by run/walk speed and mobility skills while moving. It can however chase you with Smoke Assault Merge and you can't get away from it unless you stealth.

Ranger has more stealth

No. In no way does Ranger have more stealth than a Thief.

Ranger has more healing

Ranger definitely has more healing, well most builds you encounter yes.

Ranger has more burst and damage over time

If you come across a glass cannon Soulbeast with One Wolf Pack and Sic Em, yes, the Ranger will have more front loaded burst than you. But after that burst is done, the Deadeye EASILY has more damage over time. You just need to understand how to bait and ruin the Ranger's initial burst. In no way does the Ranger have consistent damage to keep up with Death's Judgement. The Soulbeast's big burst is on a 60s CD.

Longbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealth

Get out of of range or LOS dude. You are a Thief with a Shortbow 900 range teleport mixed with Shadow Step 1200 Teleport. Use it.

Ranger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.

As a Deadeye, you get hard countered by Ranger. This is just how it works for several reasons. If you want to be able to kill Rangers, you have to understand the idea of staying out of range of the Ranger, until you can come back with a full burst and the resources to be able to once again get out of range quickly when necessary. And no, the Ranger cannot outrun you if you do this properly.

Ranger has stability

A Ranger with stability means he isn't running One Wolf Pack, which means you should be winning the 1v1 or at least not dying to it and being able to run away.

How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?

I agree Deadeye is under the weather right now in terms of where it sits in balance. But there are a lot of things you could be doing better to utilize the class you are choosing to play. You need to treat every situation as if you only have 1 health. When you do this, you'll unlock your true Deadeye skills and you'll see how the class was meant to be played.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJOqLbtUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Piedplat.3597 said:I know the best break CC is the ranger who have it and it's lighning reflexes. That break CC, remove Immobilize, rollback you of 700 unit with a dodge of 3/4 seconde and with wilderness knowlege it remove 2 condis, give fury and only on a CD of 24 secondes.

Prove me wrong.

Uh it has a couple of huge drawback dude.

  1. Now that passive CC is a thing after so much stab & stun break was removed post legend nerf patch, we've got a lot of Shocking Aura and Flashbang going on. Lightning Reflexes has a small amount of damage on it, which makes it count as an attack. When you try to use LR that damage activates effects like Shock Aura and Flashbang passive CCs that immediately stun you, which completely negates the skill LR. You use the stun break but then immediately get stunned again, and you don't even move any of the range that LR was supposed to put you. That damage also reveals you out of stealth if anything is near you when you use LR.
  2. Lightning Reflexes also cannot go over effects like Line or Ring of Warding or Spectral Ring, ect ect.. So when you have to use that skill for whatever reason and those effects are around you, you just immediately get locked right back into a CC again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

Thats about right.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I think everything you said there is wrong.

I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

So guess how close to correct you are.

Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kadsik.9281 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I think everything you said there is wrong.

I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

So guess how close to correct you are.

Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.And I guess you where wrong.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I think everything you said there is wrong.

I'm guessing you play ranger right? OP's post feels a whiny, but for the most part I do not think he's wrong, atleast with damage and healing.I have 85 hours on my only ranger character over the last 2000 days. Roughly half of that is world completion. I have 7900 hours on my account.

So guess how close to correct you are.

Are you implying that I should of already known how many hours you had on ranger? I guess what I meant to ask was if it was your main. That's why I made a "guess" not a statement.And I guess you where wrong.Well actually the thing is I can't read minds like everyone else yet, hopefully I can evolve soon and catch up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Piedplat.3597 said:I know the best break CC is the ranger who have it and it's lighning reflexes. That break CC, remove Immobilize, rollback you of 700 unit with a dodge of 3/4 seconde and with wilderness knowlege it remove 2 condis, give fury and only on a CD of 24 secondes.

Prove me wrong.

Uh it has a couple of huge drawback dude.
  1. Now that passive CC is a thing after so much stab & stun break was removed post legend nerf patch, we've got a lot of Shocking Aura and Flashbang going on. Lightning Reflexes has a small amount of damage on it, which makes it count as an attack. When you try to use LR that damage activates effects like Shock Aura and Flashbang passive CCs that immediately stun you, which completely negates the skill LR. You use the stun break but then immediately get stunned again, and you don't even move any of the range that LR was supposed to put you. That damage also reveals you out of stealth if anything is near you when you use LR.
  2. Lightning Reflexes also cannot go over effects like Line or Ring of Warding or Spectral Ring, ect ect.. So when you have to use that skill for whatever reason and those effects are around you, you just immediately get locked right back into a CC again.

Flashbang requires explosive entrance to hit to CC.... how do you come up with the idea that the little damage from lightning reflexes would trigger flashbang?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KrHome.1920 said:

6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):

At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.

The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

Out of interest, why impact sigil? Does that work on dazes too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):

At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.

The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

Out of interest, why impact sigil? Does that work on dazes too?Just for the max possible multiplier (I've calculated with 3%).Air sigil is actually better in terms of damage but a separate hit. And my intention was the maximum you can get for that one backstab hit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KrHome.1920 said:

6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):

At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.

The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

I don't have a Thief anymore, but not all too long ago I enjoyed playing a Cavalier Thief with Hidden Killer (100% Critical Chance when attacking from Stealth) and Sigil of Vision. My damage was generally pretty bad, but when spiking people from Stealth I could easily land 10k+ Backstabs, and often after swapping from Shortbow do things like this5btc5Zl.jpgI only played Cavalier because I'm a horrible Thief and I wanted cushion so I could practice. It turned out performing better than I expected because I was able to spike people for half their health on engage while still having a heap of armor to deal with their response.

With that said, I'm not asking for nerfs to Thief nor do I think it's OP, yadda yadda yadda. I actually think Thief could use buffs in a number of areas, but my point is that I agree on how much damage it can put out without said build being completely unusable. I think a part of the problem is that a lot of Thieves just go full Marauder and slot for as much escape potential as they can instead of investing anything in damage. So they hit like, 3 - 5k Backstabs on average when they could be doing a lot higher if they planned to actually commit to a fight for a change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:I only played Cavalier because I'm a horrible Thief and I wanted cushion so I could practice. It turned out performing better than I expected because I was able to spike people for half their health on engage while still having a heap of armor to deal with their response.That's critical strikes. That traitline is broken (like shadow arts too these days). I suck on teef too because I haven't any practise on the spec anymore.

So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

3000 power50% crit chance200% crit damage3000 armor20000 health

Pick staff and do your 6 to 10k vaults while being able to facetank and to run away with shortbow, shadowstep and dagger storm at any time. I am winning 80% of my duells at roaming with this build without any practise. From the other 20% I just run away.

Well.. we are leaving the topic I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KrHome.1920 said:So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

3000 power50% crit chance200% crit damage3000 armor20000 health

The problem is that this that's 50% crit chance / 200% crit damage with perma-Fury already factored in. You're whiffing a lot on crits compared to thief builds that get 95-100% crit chance, and cutting No Quarter for Hidden Killer (to guarantee a few big crits) or Invigorating Precision (for sustain) will drop your Ferocity to like ~180% crit damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...