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Balance: Thief vs Ranger


Eventine.8024

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@ASP.8093 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:So what did I do: I went full soldier + scholar rune + accuracy/force + cleansing/bloodlust sigils, CS/Tr/DrD and ended up with

3000 power50% crit chance200% crit damage3000 armor20000 health

The problem is that this that's 50% crit chance / 200% crit damage
with perma-Fury already factored in.
You're whiffing a lot on crits compared to thief builds that get 95-100% crit chance, and cutting No Quarter for Hidden Killer (to guarantee a few big crits) or Invigorating Precision (for sustain) will drop your Ferocity to like ~180% crit damage.Due to the fight presence that build has the 50% turned out to be not a big deal - to me at least. But I have to mention that it really does work only with staff as this is the thief dps weapon (the highest multipliers). While these gear numbers look impressive the base damage of dagger and sword is so low, that you can't kill anything when picking these. I haven't tested rifle yet. But since rifle has also high multipliers and deadeye has a huge quickness uptime, that build might even work as a no stealth rifle bruiser. And the escape potential would also be good as rifle can spam leaps like shortbow.

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Rifle needs initiative reset for sustained damage. That initiative reset comes from building Malice into M7 with critical hits. Anything that lowers your crit rate also slows down your ability to build Malice, and makes it harder to get Protection on yourself. You could possibly get away with lower crit in PvE because TRB gives you three chances to crit, but in WvW you're mostly using Skirmisher's Shot due to the better balance of damage, initiative, and mobility that it provides over all other Rifle skills.

Non-M7 Rifle builds are really really burst-oriented so they really want like 3-4 attacks to all crit with Quickness, and afterward you just sorta run away for 15 seconds regardless of what happened.

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TL;DR for this thread is a bunch of people who do not play both classes are incredibly wrong about various mechanics about each class.

Both have facets which are fundamentally busted, which prevent improvements elsewhere, and depending on the level of play and builds of both them and their respective opponents, will see massive sway in the matchups they face.

The ranger has the higher skill floor/is more effective at its lowest skill level, and both have about the same skill ceiling in a duel assuming both are built optimally. Ranger generally favors group play with druid and the class's higher sustain and support overall, making it the better teamfighter. Thief gets the bonus of picking engagements and having better reset potential if it chooses to build for it, ESPECIALLY Deadeye, making it still more reliable to +1/gank on.

Ranger has problems in matchups/certain-sized engagements where it can't out-trade, since so much damage is frontloaded, like bunker weaver. Thief has basically one and a half viable builds and lacks options to play aggressively, making it feel incredibly weak to some players who did so prior to the balance shakeup because those builds are now downright trash.

There./thread?

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@"Eventine.8024" said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

You have more evades and stealth. We can't hit, what we can't see. And a lot of thieves and deadeyes go Condi/tank. SO I suggest you learn Condi/tank or go full glass cannon and pop off your shots quickly from stealth. I've had 7 years about listening from players how OP ranger is, and then not find but a handful of six commanders..>IF THAT....who will let me into their damn zerg. The rest don't even bother for an invite of any ranger class. IF we were OP , the commanders in WvW would be saying "We got too many firebrands in our composition, we need more rangers...." <_----- have you EVER read that statement in WvW? If the answer is NO, then no, we are NOT OP.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

6k backstab @ 4k armor (screenshot)Possible with this build (max. potential is 7k damage at a 4k armor target):

At the base armor of ~2k, this build deals 14k backstabs (I've witnessed these already, they exist!). Add the heartseeker to the typical D/P 5, 2 steal, hit combo and you've got your 20k opener. To make that clear: no prebuilt might, no prebuilt vulnerability! An opener in a 1v1 situation!

No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

And the best thing is, this build can escape with ease after the backstab.

Once. Then your Shadowstep is on cooldown and next time you try something, you instantly get killed.

Change DA to trickery and you still have a 6k backstab @ 4k armor (12k @ 2k armor) and a build that got a lot of utility and can restealth and resetup the backstab several times. That is not a one trick pony build. That is a viable teef roaming build and I've encountered it very often.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgqVlNwwYgsNGJW2WntUA-zVIYR09XKNFC1mo9GBVUU2eSCj/W0fGA-w

Damage number is completely wrong, see above. Youre also losing a whole lot more than just 2k damage by switching DA to trickery.

The dagger storm rework (that added evasion) broke that build. It's deadly and untouchable in the hands of a patient player, that keeps an eye on the dagger storm and shadowstep cooldowns.

Until its forced to use both, and then doesnt do anything until theyreb ack.

Each time someone in this forum says teef deals poor damage and can't kill anything, I think of this build and have a good laugh.

Yes, an unplayable build that still barely does damage totally disproves that.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

Thats about right.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

Unless you were already in a fight so that the thief could stack up lead attacks, and the thief played a bad crit strikes build, highly unlikely. Certainly not above 7k, doubtful you even get 7k.

Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

Even a crit strikes build fails to crack 7k. Now if you also dropped trickery, maybe, but there is a reason trickery is mandatory.

Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

I have yet to see that happen. I certainly have yet to experience myself (when I lose to thieves, either Im playing Deadeye which sucks, or theyre significantly better than me, and I concede that). Thief cant 1v1 good roaming builds with equally skilled players.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Strider.7849" said:
  • Thief has more burst this isn't even debatable after the nerfs to ranger. There is still commander sniping builds in play.

hmm not sure about this..played thief for long time and ranger aswell (pretty much only 2 i play)ranger on more deffensive stats has far better burst then a thief.i mean people will say im crying but thief burst is so sad right now..

mean while on my ranger who is using durability runes and some armor (dunno which but no zerk stats at all) is doing far better dmg wise.tbh i dont really mind the nerfs ill play thief till i quit but thief isnt as it used to be.

they nerfed staff thief well nerfed not rly increased the ini use on staff 5 which was not really needed so that zerg build ur on about is not that good anymore u can do 2 vaults and ur out of ini. so thief is in same state as ranger useless and probably next nerf is inc again.cus thief is not useless in sPvP and since wvw takes alot of kitten from sPvP they probably get nerfed again for nothing rly.

I have a screenshot
of a thief dealing upward of 10k+ dmg between a backstab and a HS followed by around 8k+ more dmg soon after.

Do you mean 10k with a backstab + HS, or either backstab or HS? The former, sure, if youre low hp, possible. The latter, unless youre a glass and theyre playing a very bad build, is not possible.

In the screenshot I was using an experimental build, made for the sake of testing and I was using :
2.9k toughness = 4k armor
....why do thief players keep lying so blatantly? ..."thief burst is sad right now"....please stop it....there are dozens of videos out there proving you wrong

Yeah ok with 4k armour there is absolutely no way the thief got 10k+ damage from a single backstab without shenanigans. Im not even sure its possible
with
shenanigans. And no, there are dozens of videos showing that thief burst is indeed sad.
we have a frontstab on a squishy thief. 2k. A backstab would do 4k. So how exactly do you think a thief wouldve backstabbed for over 10k on a 4k armour guy? With 4k armour youd take
half
the damage, so unless the thief somehow miraculously got a 400% damage boost from somewhere, Im gonna call BS.

HSPmDfM.jpg

I have clearly stated 10k dmg as a combination of a backstab and a Heartseeker while the target has 4k armor...
I was full HP

It was many things, "clearly" it was not. But this is at least possible .... with shenanigans. Not in any realistic scenario, of course, in a realistic scenario youd take 2k from backstab and 1k from heartseeker. I assume that the Thief is playing something like DA/SA/CS (which is a
really
bad build since you dont even have trickery), he was at full hp, had pre-stacked might somehow, used assassins signet, and you had vuln or condis on you somehow. Otherwise, its still not possible.

There’s a couple of important things here. The first strike is 6k. That’s pretty heavy for a thief using sPvP stats but I’d buy those numbers based on WvW stats and getting some significant vulnerability onto the target.

Its a lot for a WvW strike even on a squishy glass cannon. On a supposed 4k armour target, no way in hell you ever get 6k backstabs off.

The second strike is only for 2.8k, which is not that significant for HS (still high HP so the modifier is pretty low). The combo of an Air sigil and some life steal off food is what pushes this over 10k for the two skills. (Nearly 1k off the sigil is 10% of the damage).

Its actually a bit higher than a >50% hp Heartseeker does on a squishy target. Again, 4k armour, not a chance.

Now, with 18k HP, that pushes the ranger below 50% and the next Heartseeker hits a bit harder. The last HS is below 25% and hits the hardest.

Thats about right.

If I had to guess with the self-reported stats the thief is running a very one shot oriented build. Backstab, HS x3. Likely a very quick sequence because there is probably a time limit to how long the damage is that high (or the thief is running very glassy). On a lower toughness opponent they probably would have hit a 8k+ BS and a 4k+ base HS. Again that’s with WvW stats where base power can be much higher.

No, on a lower toughness target they would have hit a 5k, maybe a 6k if theyre pushing it, backstab. His damage is much higher than is possible without shenanigans. Because its not a realistic damage number.

This is why people should record their gameplay and then slow down the video so they can see everything that hits them. Recording software can passively run in the background so you just hit record when something interesting happened and you want to figure it out.

I have a good guess as to why he didnt want to do that here.

As a squishy I get hit for upwards of 7k BS regularly.

Unless you were already in a fight so that the thief could stack up lead attacks, and the thief played a bad crit strikes build, highly unlikely. Certainly not above 7k, doubtful you even get 7k.

Not a hack, really just normal damage on a build built for it.

Even a crit strikes build fails to crack 7k. Now if you also dropped trickery, maybe, but there is a reason trickery is mandatory.

Also, I disagree that thief can’t 1v1. I don’t know about what equal skill level is supposed to mean, exactly. But I can say that good players can fight on equal footing with good thieves, and lose.

I have yet to see that happen. I certainly have yet to experience myself (when I lose to thieves, either Im playing Deadeye which sucks, or theyre significantly better than me, and I concede that). Thief cant 1v1 good roaming builds with equally skilled players.

Yeah , when you say you dont like to use stealth in combat , while all the others in the Youtube do ...They might have picked some tactics you dont :)Such as re-using Backstab or any stealth attack , to kill the target faster

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

This... this isn't even hard to verify.

1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal crap to try to make whatever point.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies pre-patch. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.So you deny the official damage formula of the game.

Good job! Who should take you seriously?

4000 power 1000 weapon strength 1.8 backstab modifier * 2.7 crit damage modifier / 4000 armor = 4860 damage (that's already ~9500 damage at your squishy target!)

Then add the traits and sigils:sigil of force, sigil of impact, even the odds, twin fangs, practised tolerance, ferocious strikes, no quarter, weakening strikes, havoc specialist

7k on a squishy target... you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please just stop at this point!

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@reddie.5861 said:

@Eventine.8024 said:Simple question: I want to play thief rifle in WvW, but when I battle with any other class, ranger for example, this happens:Ranger has more mobilityRanger has more stealthRanger has more healingRanger has more burst and damage over timeLongbow vs rifle (or short bot): rapid fire kills everything, while rifle and short bow do insignificant damage. Rapid fire keep hitting even if i'm in stealthRanger has invulnerable, ranger has pet, ranger has amazing down skill.Ranger has stabilityThief has boon strip.How this is balanced? Why Dev has this amazing game and still manage to ruin it every patch? Where is WvW alliance system?I play gw2 since betaweekend 1, and it's already 2 years I lost faith in you.

Eventine

ranger doesnt have more mobility, it depends where u are at. yes in 1 straight line forward he will most likely be faster then u but he cant dps in that time while u shouldnt have a hard time catching up.

ranger has more stealth? how? a blast and longbow 3? and maybe if u play druid? or use trapper runes? basically not tru.

ranger has more healing meh not sure i doubt that.

ranger has more burst, ye kind of but easier to dodge. as for dmg over time as in condi? think thief is better at it ;).

in general a good deadeye will eat a ranger. so rifle > longbow?

yes ranger has invul 3s? and another 3 if u take tank pet and if ur a moron u have trait also. <- this is uncommon very uncommon. as for downskill what is the amazing one?the pet res? ur a thief interupt it and the skill turns out to be useless or u mean the other downskill that does 1 lighting strike kind of thing that interupts?ur down skill as thief > u port when they stomp > u stealth when they wanna stomp again > u might get res in meanwhile. think in case of ranger vs thief i rather have thief down state skills.

thief has stability also not as much as ranger but dont need it.

think balance between thief ranger is fine. im playing thief mainly and from time to time ranger the balance problem between these 2 classes isnt the above atleastalso im fairly sure ur mixing up a kitten ton of different ranger builds vs your one thief build.well in that case i can make list for every class :D

ranger has more burst, ye kind of but easier to dodge. as for dmg over time as in condi? think thief is better at it ;).

As someone that plays condi DE, DoT would have to go to ranger due to the broken af perma immob.

No idea why we are comparing teef to ranger...its like comparing apples to oranges. 2 diff classes, 2 diff mechanics.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.So you deny the official damage formula of the game.

Good job! Who should take you seriously?

4000 power
1000 weapon strength
1.8 backstab modifier * 2.7 crit damage modifier / 4000 armor = 4860 damage (that's already ~9500 damage at your squishy target!)

4000 power? Where exactly are you getting 4000 power from? You barely crack 3580. Not sure where you think youre getting a 2.7 modifier from either. Im assuming you wanted it to be from the fury, except you dont get the fury before the backstab. No trickery, remember? So, lets fix it. 3580 power*1.8*2.53/4000= 4000-ish damage.

Then add the traits and sigils:sigil of force, sigil of impact, even the odds, twin fangs, practised tolerance, ferocious strikes, no quarter, weakening strikes, havoc specialist

Oh, youre using the sigils too. Damn, you really went all-in on the "max damage with min playability" huh? Anyway, you already tried to include no quarter, even though it didnt fit in. Practiced Tolerance is already included. Now sure, if you add those in, you get a decent chunk of damage. Lets see, should be around 3580*1.8*2.7*1.05*1.05*1.03*1.05*1.06/4000= 5500. I admit, more than I expected, its 11k on a squishy. But its not 14k, nor anywhere near 14k, so youre still wrong. So perhaps dont act so smug?

7k on a squishy target... you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please just stop at this point!

Sure, I didnt see the sigils, so its more. But let me remind you. This is a build you manufactured to hit as much damage as possible. Its a build that isnt played because, well, its unplayable. Its a joke build. I can also probably make an ele build that bursts for 20000, that doesnt mean ele has great burst, it means you can sacrifice playability to try and fail to prove a point. You also were still wrong about 14k damage. And as for 7k on a 4k armour target, clearly even with your build its just not possible.

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@God.2708 said:

No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

This... this isn't even hard to verify.

1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
.

ihRanz5.jpg

???

Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
.

ihRanz5.jpg

???

Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

I haven't been hit anything close to this post patch but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
.

ihRanz5.jpg

???

Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

I was going to say "how do the autos do that much damage", but if Im not mistaken, combat log doesnt include damage resistance from Shroud in its numbers, is it? Still, peculiar, this is higher than should be possible. Maybe he had stacked might somehow.

I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

I haven't been hit anything close to this post patch but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

Well, lets just say this isnt a representative screenshot from pre-patch MBS Thieves. But I dont know how he upped his damage, so.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@God.2708 said:

No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

This... this isn't even hard to verify.

1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

Read the wiki on twin fangs and ferocious strikes.

And yes I've tested it in game. Consider yourself more informed now.

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@God.2708 said:

@God.2708 said:

No, it does not. Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
. This build not only has lower damage than that build would have, backstab damage has since been reduced by 25%. This build probably does around 7k backstab on a squishy target, and a fractio nof that on a 4k armour target without nonsense setups.

This... this isn't even hard to verify.

1.8 Power mod. 1k Weapon Power. 3580 Power with assassins signet active and no might.Easy Modifiers: 253% critical damage. 105% scholar. 105% force. 103% impact. 110% ferocious strikes. 107% from twin fangs.

6,444,000 damage pre-modifiers. 21,790,556 damage post-modifiers. Divide by whatever armor level you want.

10,895 to 2000 armor. 5,447 to 4000 armor.

Left out a 7% modifier, a 5/10/15% modifier, 300 ferocity, 5%+ from vuln (steal), 4%+ from exposed weakness (steal), and the other 7% from impact sigil.

The numbers are all there. Stop spouting anecdotal kitten to try to make whatever point.

Your math has issues. Twin Fangs and Ferocious strikes are included in critical damage. Theyre not thrown ontop of it. Its 5500 damage if you include steal and exposed weakness. The others arent included because you dont actually get them with the initial backstab, and if youre not on the initial backstab anymore, well, lets just say most of the damage modifiers there turn off if you stay in a fight. Second, even so, thats not 14k on a squishy, nor 7k on a 4k armour target. He was no less wrong than I was with his math. Difference is, I guesstimated. He claimed to have seen something his build shows isnt possible.

Read the wiki on twin fangs and ferocious strikes.

Oh. Thats ... not how its supposed to work. Interesting. Well, I didnt know that, but it does appear as though youre right. That adds a little bit of damage, but with 6k it still falls short of the supposed 7k.

And yes I've tested it in game. Consider yourself more informed now.

So I am.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Remember, even max glass cannon Deadeye with malicious backstab barely cracked 14k backstabs on squishies
pre-patch
.

ihRanz5.jpg

???

Without context, I cant say if youre undergeared, if you got vulnerability bombed by a nearby scrapper or anything of the sort. Seriously people, without context damage number screenshots are worthless.

Prepatch, I was on a zerk Necro, full ascended level 80. First hit I was not in Shroud and survived with like, 500 health. I entered Shroud and all the following hits were on my Shroud.

I was going to say "how do the autos do that much damage", but if Im not mistaken, combat log doesnt include damage resistance from Shroud in its numbers, is it? Still, peculiar, this is higher than should be possible. Maybe he had stacked might somehow.

I was Marked and instantly backstabbed, it wasn't a prolonged fight and they had no time to build Malice. I had another screenshot of being hit by the same Thief shortly before this.

I haven't been hit anything close to this
post patch
but I'm just providing an example that it was more than possible prepatch. As of now I don't think I've been hit any higher than 10k by any Thieves, but some of them do still hit pretty hard.
Also, I know I'm playing zerk and that's my own fault. I'm not one of the ones that was complaining about Thief in this thread, I'm just providing a relevant example.

Well, lets just say this isnt a representative screenshot from pre-patch MBS Thieves. But I dont know how he upped his damage, so.

Ah, found the un-cropped one. Property info says I took this December 15th 2019. Being Marked was instantly followed by Backstab, there was no combat in between. It was just a Thief lurking around near the keep in Stealth one shotting people. After the first time he got me I let him do it a few more times so I could check my combat log.

MBS does not hit this hard anymore, but I'm pretty sure it can still get to 10, maybe even 15k under the right circumstances. Again though, not a complaint, just an observation with evidence from pre-patch.VjU1Pee.jpg

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:TL;DR for this thread is a bunch of people who do not play both classes are incredibly wrong about various mechanics about each class.

Both have facets which are fundamentally busted, which prevent improvements elsewhere, and depending on the level of play and builds of both them and their respective opponents, will see massive sway in the matchups they face.

The ranger has the higher skill floor/is more effective at its lowest skill level, and both have about the same skill ceiling in a duel assuming both are built optimally. Ranger generally favors group play with druid and the class's higher sustain and support overall, making it the better teamfighter. Thief gets the bonus of picking engagements and having better reset potential if it chooses to build for it, ESPECIALLY Deadeye, making it still more reliable to +1/gank on.

Ranger has problems in matchups/certain-sized engagements where it can't out-trade, since so much damage is frontloaded, like bunker weaver. Thief has basically one and a half viable builds and lacks options to play aggressively, making it feel incredibly weak to some players who did so prior to the balance shakeup because those builds are now downright trash.

There./thread?

Fully agree with u there, still i feel druid outside avatar form could have some QoL staff inprovements :\, as much i LOVE its elite being on avatar or no avatar form, 99% of the players i play that are druids tell me OMG ITS USELESS and im like WTF!!!???

Staff 2 could become a ammonition based skill, staff one could heal more output and heals less for the caster since Druid already have a traait that heals when healing an ally, stuff like that.Avatar form is just excelent support ._. and 10 players affected.. dammn.. and people say its almost no support...Kinda reminds the players saying that Jalis from rev is ZERO support cause has no boons!

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