Epidemic of rangers and thieves in WvW

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" it really is reality denial of yours. every freaking server has these thief and ranger roamers en masse. the craziest shit i saw was a 15-thief group that tried to pick off ppl from our opentags 35-40 ppl on the move. they stalked us for over an hour, trading 1 kill gained on their side for losing 10 of theirs constantly... as trashy, as annoying.

also the poor argumentation of "mindless spamming zerg players". that shows that rather u never played in a coordinated zerg. pepega zergs are those who do it wrong. yeah, happens often enough. because of the ppl who want rather play roamerthings like ranger/thief and sleep half of the time. that's also the one that u can push with 20 players who know their classes... that is more precise targeting, doding and bombing than a roamermind would likely even be capable of noticing. guess this is what often leads to roamers raging about "mimim ganking blob on me", after he and his four friends tried to dismount and oneshot the tail of said zerg.

every freaking matchup has a ton of thieves and rangers by now, bc overall dmg got hard nerfs, so they get hit less hard but still have the best mobility and fastest attacks.then we have another alien scientiest here like @"DeathPanel.8362" who really says "I've never gotten dismounted ever from a rapid fire when at full health."... solid joke at least. the warkitty dies from like three herald hammer 1's. thief and ranger can put like ten times the dmg of that within the same time. i had a deadeye today shooting me from warclaw to zero with literally one hit on a not-even full zerker ele. (marauder bc normally u have time alike to active your stunblocks/evades etc)__outside of that... ofc there are no all-thief-squads normally. because it makes no sense. their thing is to gank only. they won't fight on even numbers, rather hit-run-port-permaevade-stealth. that isn't groupplay per se, since they don't get any commands usually bc they're never interested in that. thieves would be technically the best scouts, just u don't see ever more than portaling, roaming, ganking or dueling of them.

and imo warkitty only benefits these classes. saw enough thief-ranger things that just outrun/teleport far faster than warclaw moves, and their attack speed forces u to predict their attack, which is silly since they are extremly fast attackers.

[cobbah.3102]

Just delete ranger and thief ,problem solved if thay have no place in squad ,not required.

[Dawdler.8521]

@cobbah.3102 said:Just delete ranger and thief ,problem solved if thay have no place in squad ,not required.Yeah if they have no place in the squad or isnt required - unlike now when squads love the thief and ranger - the problem is solved.

Hm.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"Fat Disgrace.4275" it really is reality denial of yours. every freaking server has these thief and ranger roamers en masse. the craziest kitten i saw was a 15-thief group that tried to pick off ppl from our opentags 35-40 ppl on the move. they stalked us for over an hour, trading 1 kill gained on their side for losing 10 of theirs constantly... as trashy, as annoying.

also the poor argumentation of "mindless spamming zerg players". that shows that rather u never played in a coordinated zerg. pepega zergs are those who do it wrong. yeah, happens often enough. because of the ppl who want rather play roamerthings like ranger/thief and sleep half of the time. that's also the one that u can push with 20 players who know their classes... that is more precise targeting, doding and bombing than a roamermind would likely even be capable of noticing. guess this is what often leads to roamers raging about "mimim ganking blob on me", after he and his four friends tried to dismount and oneshot the tail of said zerg.

every freaking matchup has a ton of thieves and rangers by now, bc overall dmg got hard nerfs, so they get hit less hard but still have the best mobility and fastest attacks.then we have another alien scientiest here like @"DeathPanel.8362" who really says "I've never gotten dismounted ever from a rapid fire when at full health."... solid joke at least. the warkitty dies from like three herald hammer 1's. thief and ranger can put like ten times the dmg of that within the same time. i had a deadeye today shooting me from warclaw to zero with literally one hit on a not-even full zerker ele. (marauder bc normally u have time alike to active your stunblocks/evades etc)__outside of that... ofc there are no all-thief-squads normally. because it makes no sense. their thing is to gank only. they won't fight on even numbers, rather hit-run-port-permaevade-stealth. that isn't groupplay per se, since they don't get any commands usually bc they're never interested in that. thieves would be technically the best scouts, just u don't see ever more than portaling, roaming, ganking or dueling of them.

and imo warkitty only benefits these classes. saw enough thief-ranger things that just outrun/teleport far faster than warclaw moves, and their attack speed forces u to predict their attack, which is silly since they are extremly fast attackers.

Are you on na? Show me a server that has theres grps. Like I said it's only wsr and sfr that actually has them (eu) apart from that you get the odd few tagging along a zerg or skirmishing around smc

[anduriell.6280]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:Are you on na? Show me a server that has theres grps. Like I said it's only wsr and sfr that actually has them (eu) apart from that you get the odd few tagging along a zerg or skirmishing around smc

He probably mains mesmer, understable his experience is mostly with rangers and thieves while roaming.If he spends most of his time roaming then it's understable he will meet roaming players which most are form by thieves because of high mobility and rangersfrom the new players joining.

Yet there aren't that many thieves or rangers, logic dictates if EB has a limit of 60 players and 50 of them are in an squad with meta builds there aren't that many slots left for no-meta classes (like mesmer, ranger or thief) . Only cases you will find a bigger population of roaming classes if when servers lack the population to fill squads or lack commanders.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:Are you on na? Show me a server that has theres grps. Like I said it's only wsr and sfr that actually has them (eu) apart from that you get the odd few tagging along a zerg or skirmishing around smc

He probably mains mesmer, understable his experience is mostly with rangers and thieves while roaming.If he spends most of his time roaming then it's understable he will meet roaming players which most are form by thieves because of high mobility and rangersfrom the new players joining.

Yet there aren't that many thieves or rangers, logic dictates if EB has a limit of 60 players and 50 of them are in an squad with meta builds there aren't that many slots left for no-meta classes (like mesmer, ranger or thief) . Only cases you will find a bigger population of roaming classes if when servers lack the population to fill squads or lack commanders.

I roam and defend bl mostly and rarly see any grps bigger than 3 consisting of thieves and rangers, It's always 6 person grp with 3 support and 3 dps, and guess what? None of them are thieves at all but condi revs, holos, warriors and necros

It dosnt matter what class you play, that doesn't change who you face.

The last time I seen a grp of 5+ thieves was well over a year ago and that was the guild system a.... [sA]

[anduriell.6280]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:I roam and defend bl mostly and rarly see any grps bigger than 3 consisting of thieves and rangers, It's always 6 person grp with 3 support and 3 dps, and guess what? None of them are thieves at all but condi revs, holos, warriors and necros

It dosnt matter what class you play, that doesn't change who you face.

The last time I seen a grp of 5+ thieves was well over a year ago and that was the guild system a.... [sA]

Agreed, when i say "when roaming you meet mostly thieves and rangers" i mean you meet them as solo players or pairs. There are no ranger or thieves guilds as far as i know, the last one in Vabbi died very long time ago.

[saerni.2584]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:I roam and defend bl mostly and rarly see any grps bigger than 3 consisting of thieves and rangers, It's always 6 person grp with 3 support and 3 dps, and guess what? None of them are thieves at all but condi revs, holos, warriors and necros

It dosnt matter what class you play, that doesn't change who you face.

The last time I seen a grp of 5+ thieves was well over a year ago and that was the guild system a.... [sA]

Agreed, when i say "when roaming you meet mostly thieves and rangers" i mean you meet them as solo players or pairs. There are no ranger or thieves guilds as far as i know, the last one in Vabbi died very long time ago.

There's not really a dedicated Thief guild for a specific server and intending to run as a single group in wvw.

Official Thief Forum Guild [Teef] is a cross server thief guild with a number of us on multiple worlds as well as in NA/EU.

It's hard to recruit enough thieves to use up a guild slot and be on the same server. But, I do try to recruit thieves I see often (bias towards my link but I don't usually PM people who are on other servers so...).

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

systematic abuse SA still exists, and has a recruit guild even named lion, other than that there's some guild named "ninja asura club", but been some months since we had them in a matchup. saw others as well, but yeah, i don't think most are dedicated thief guilds. thiefs just enable them to stealth pretty long, surely it often is more than only thiefs.

the last thing i'd care in a matchup with WSR would be their thieves tho lol. their zergs are amongst the best existing, who cares in that case about the 10-15 leecher thieves that every single server existing has.

also, for three thieves u need yet like 12+ people to effectively chase and kill them down., outside of objectives at least.

[kash.9213]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:systematic abuse SA still exists, and has a recruit guild even named lion, other than that there's some guild named "ninja asura club", but been some months since we had them in a matchup. saw others as well, but yeah, i don't think most are dedicated thief guilds. thiefs just enable them to stealth pretty long, surely it often is more than only thiefs.

the last thing i'd care in a matchup with WSR would be their thieves tho lol. their zergs are amongst the best existing, who cares in that case about the 10-15 leecher thieves that every single server existing has.

also, for three thieves u need yet like 12+ people to effectively chase and kill them down., outside of objectives at least.

That's twelve people who made build choices that made their numbers meaningless. Are you saying no one pulled even one of those thieves in your story for a couple of others to capitalize on? And what was their group composition that lets three thieves out buff and support twelve people, in your story?

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"kash.9213" see, on our server at least you don't have full pros. maybe yours is different there...

but let's say NC, show me how you effectively chase the thief kents with let us say five to eight people.

yeah if that is also roamerbuilds/ spvp ones, it works likely. but the "i play for fun", roleplayer, dailies doer, doesn't have any option to effectively fight a thief and rather rally them worst case. you rather have to take care that the other ppl just don't completely sleep, since one single thief can down a target really fast, and another one can finish it etc.

[kash.9213]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"kash.9213" see, on our server at least you don't have full pros. maybe yours is different there...

but let's say NC, show me how you effectively chase the thief kents with let us say five to eight people.

yeah if that is also roamerbuilds/ spvp ones, it works likely. but the "i play for fun", roleplayer, dailies doer, doesn't have any option to effectively fight a thief and rather rally them worst case. you rather have to take care that the other ppl just don't completely sleep, since one single thief can down a target really fast, and another one can finish it etc.

I'm not seeing how anything in your scenario doesn't make sense though, it kind of sounds like nature running it's course. That group should think about hanging out in structures or having better security if they're going to hang around outside.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

that isn't a group composition lol. it's what smallfolk that still even cares to defend outer objectives like camps. it's rather questionable that roamerpacks exist in these days. you guys only look for the cheap ganks, and then argument "uh but u could run a full roamergroup on spvp sets, so we cannot gank you".... imagine if NPC damage was buffed to constant supervior-invuln power. you thief people would be the first to make twenty raging cry-postings, since u cannot sustain that :P

[Zyreva.1078]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:that isn't a group composition lol. it's what smallfolk that still even cares to defend outer objectives like camps. it's rather questionable that roamerpacks exist in these days. you guys only look for the cheap ganks, and then argument "uh but u could run a full roamergroup on spvp sets, so we cannot gank you".... imagine if NPC damage was buffed to constant supervior-invuln power. you thief people would be the first to make twenty raging cry-postings, since u cannot sustain that :P

What? Few players taking on larger numbers equals "only looking for cheap ganks" and "shouldn't exist", but a zerg running over a small grp is a matter of skill, coordination, teamplay ...? Logic hello, where are you? Also how does making NPC invulnerable fit into this? Your posts do not make any sense whatsoever.

[Jski.6180]

Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

[ASP.8093]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"kash.9213" see, on our server at least you don't have full pros. maybe yours is different there...

but let's say NC, show me how you effectively chase the thief kents with let us say five to eight people.

yeah if that is also roamerbuilds/ spvp ones, it works likely. but the "i play for fun", roleplayer, dailies doer, doesn't have any option to effectively fight a thief and rather rally them worst case. you rather have to take care that the other ppl just don't completely sleep, since one single thief can down a target really fast, and another one can finish it etc.

Those people also get dumpstered by any halfway-respectable roaming build, though.

Equip Marauder or Trailblazer gear, make sure your build has 2 stun breaks, some reliable condi cleanse, and at least one good juke ability for when you get swarmed (I've been able to run away from scrub-tier opponents using nothing but Swiftness and Call to Anguish) and you're basically set for life as far as fighting those sorts of players goes.

And you made up the "roleplayer" thing because, no, people aren't "roleplaying" meaningfully in WvW.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:that isn't a group composition lol. it's what smallfolk that still even cares to defend outer objectives like camps. it's rather questionable that roamerpacks exist in these days. you guys only look for the cheap ganks, and then argument "uh but u could run a full roamergroup on spvp sets, so we cannot gank you".... imagine if NPC damage was buffed to constant supervior-invuln power. you thief people would be the first to make twenty raging cry-postings, since u cannot sustain that :P

You seem confused about the "sustain" thing.

Thieves usually don't facetank damage when fighting camp NPCs.

Most dedicated roaming builds have better personal sustain than PvE-style builds or non-support group builds.

[Kovu.7560]

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

[kash.9213]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:that isn't a group composition lol. it's what smallfolk that still even cares to defend outer objectives like camps. it's rather questionable that roamerpacks exist in these days. you guys only look for the cheap ganks, and then argument "uh but u could run a full roamergroup on spvp sets, so we cannot gank you".... imagine if NPC damage was buffed to constant supervior-invuln power. you thief people would be the first to make twenty raging cry-postings, since u cannot sustain that :P

What do you mean "you guys"? I build to handle stuff I'll run into and I also build to cover people, groups, and squads. I don't "roam" even when I'm traveling alone most of the time. If you're calling them new players then they'll bite it to any class. I wouldn't bother with the forums for your imagined NPC, I'd figure out a build to work around it. People don't build for thieves because they're supposed to be a non meta class and aren't important but thieves tend to build for whatever they're doing so they don't get exploded.

[Jski.6180]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like

rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed

is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like

rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed

is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes.

Care to elaborate on that?

About the topic, it's simple. People play ranger as they expect a pet class to be good and/or mistakenly believe the pet will relieve some pressure and allow them to learn the game. The latter is only really true in PvE. People play thieves as they are essentially high damage glass cannons with about a million escape options.

Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

[Jski.6180]

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like

rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed

is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes.

Care to elaborate on that?

About the topic, it's simple. People play ranger as they expect a pet class to be good and/or mistakenly believe the pet will relieve some pressure and allow them to learn the game. The latter is only really true in PvE. People play thieves as they are essentially high damage glass cannons with about a million escape options.

Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

As things stand tempest and druide where competing for a support root roll. Temepest allways had a step up on the support side as it had the ability to land 10 targets heals and clears. Now with this lost druide will be able to fill both the support roll and root roll (druide was better at rooting already).

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Gotejjeken.1267" said:Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

"Slightly tolerated" in small groups? No matter what you think they are meta roaming/smallscale classes and they can be incredibly good at it.

You might as well say that if you are dying to another player or dying to any class in general you need to rethink how you play. Because it has as much meaning to it. Judging players by the lowest common denominator is easy. I've also killed rangers that stand still and try to facetank with a longbow, that must mean I cant die to any ranger or I'm a bad player.

Unless what you're defining as "small group play" is 10 man guild groups where 8 of them are minstrel firebrands and scrappers so they dont have room for anything but a scourge and a rev. Then I understand.

[ASP.8093]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Gotejjeken.1267" said:Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

"Slightly tolerated" in small groups? No matter what you think they

are

meta roaming/smallscale classes and they can be incredibly good at it.

You might as well say that if you are dying to another player or dying to any class in general you need to rethink how you play. Because it has as much meaning to it. Judging players by the lowest common denominator is easy. I've also killed rangers that stand still and try to facetank with a longbow, that must mean I cant die to any ranger or I'm a bad player.

Unless what you're defining as "small group play" is 10 man guild groups where 8 of them are minstrel firebrands and scrappers so they dont have room for anything but a scourge and a rev. Then I understand.

Exactly.

Thief and ranger are both valuable in small-group play for their flexibility in focusing targets — not the size of their burst but the ability to redirect where it's going quite easily, to surprise someone who's playing greedy because their friend is taking the heat for them.

(And… that's good. That's a good thing about those classes that shouldn't change just because a few people rage when they get caught with their pants down, because that's their whole role.)

The whole line like, "If you get killed by One-Wolf Pack Rapid-Fire you're just a bad player" is pretty silly because it implies you should only be dying to — what instead, exactly? Reaper spin-to-win? Fast-casting into 15 Confusion stacks? Kitten-hugging a grenade engie? Attrition after three minutes of playing ping-pong with a cele ele? What's the "correct" way to die in smallscale?

[Zyreva.1078]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like

rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed

is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes.

Care to elaborate on that?

About the topic, it's simple. People play ranger as they expect a pet class to be good and/or mistakenly believe the pet will relieve some pressure and allow them to learn the game. The latter is only really true in PvE. People play thieves as they are essentially high damage glass cannons with about a million escape options.

Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

As things stand tempest and druide where competing for a support root roll. Temepest allways had a step up on the support side as it had the ability to land 10 targets heals and clears. Now with this lost druide will be able to fill both the support roll and root roll (druide was better at rooting already).

Druid was never competing with tempest in large scale combat, not for support and not for roots. It is subpar, not because of numbers but due to mechanics/design and that's still the same, so i doubt anything is going to change. Ancient Seeds is bad vs zergs, because you have little control over when and on whom it procs unless you never ever touch anyone, it will very rarely proc on more than one player, the roots get cleaved down fast and also only works vs targets without stab and those you might as well lock down with some hard cc. You are probably confusing it with a "root soulbeast" which has some uses in zergs, but that's more of a dps build than (defensive) support.

@"ASP.8093" said:What's the "correct" way to die in smallscale?

Just don't die. Obviously :pensive:

[Jski.6180]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst.

Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta.

Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that.

~ Kovu

edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like

rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed

is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg.

Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes.

Care to elaborate on that?

About the topic, it's simple. People play ranger as they expect a pet class to be good and/or mistakenly believe the pet will relieve some pressure and allow them to learn the game. The latter is only really true in PvE. People play thieves as they are essentially high damage glass cannons with about a million escape options.

Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play.

As things stand tempest and druide where competing for a support root roll. Temepest allways had a step up on the support side as it had the ability to land 10 targets heals and clears. Now with this lost druide will be able to fill both the support roll and root roll (druide was better at rooting already).

Druid was never competing with tempest in large scale combat, not for support and not for roots. It is subpar, not because of numbers but due to mechanics/design and that's still the same, so i doubt anything is going to change. Ancient Seeds is bad vs zergs, because you have little control over when and on whom it procs unless you never ever touch anyone, it will very rarely proc on more than one player, the roots get cleaved down fast and also only works vs targets without stab and those you might as well lock down with some hard cc. You are probably confusing it with a "root soulbeast" which has some uses in zergs, but that's more of a dps build than (defensive) support.

@"ASP.8093" said:What's the "correct" way to die in smallscale?

Just don't die. Obviously :pensive:

I stronger disagree with you.